When Tradespeople Engage In Personal Attacks, Everyone Is A Loser

[Matata]

Date: 5/13/2009 5:18:16 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Do you feel personally attacking someone with a different opinion is acceptable?

Words can inform our mind, caress and comfort our feelings, excite and thrill our spirit, warm and kindle the flames of our hearts. They can also slap our face, punch us in the stomach, rattle our nerves, kill our desire, or destroy our self-confidence. These metaphors capture in words our physical reactions to what is said, and that is the power of language. It can emotionally move and affect us as powerfully as physical actions.

The exchange of information should not be geared toward hostility and conquest. Thoughts aren''t supposed to conquer feelings; feelings are not the enemies of thoughts. Pretense should not replace truth even when we don''t like it, and discovery is for understanding not for blame. Using the power of language to inform so that we will be understood and known, rather than using it to establish superiority or dominance, should be the goal of the exchange. Language used for understanding provides the vehicle for preserving the integrity of our communication system. Language used for abuse violates the integrity of the system and the person.

It is our social responsibility to use the power of language to articulate speech that captures the intensity of our feelings, without using it as a weapon, and we should not tolerate the abuse of this power when it violates us and our system.

 

[strmrdr]

Judah I am not talking about you because you are acting like a gentleman here and are becoming more and more of an asset to this site as you have worked hard to fit in and seem like a nice guy.

that said...

I don''t have any sympathy for trade members who come here and say blah blah blah your doing it wrong I have been selling Diamonds for 200 years blah blah blah blah who get told they are walking talking id 10 t errors.
We do it because it works and has worked 10s of thousands of times.
Don''t like it well go find another board where they will think your gods gift to diamonds.
Particularly people who would like to make PS like another unnamed diamond forum.
Go back over there with your buddies.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 5/14/2009 11:27:20 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 5/14/2009 10:43:40 AM
Author: risingsun
I am indeed a landsman

My wonderful Catholic husband buys me books on Yiddish phrases. Since my parents passing, I''ve lost touch with the language. Reading these books is starting to bring it back. I''m glad it brought a smile to your lips! Now, eat an English muffin, it''s better for your health, nu?

Killjoy.

 

[Rockdiamond]

This thread is about cruelty, and personal attacks. Thank you to those who have given us some poignant examples of cruel comments and personal attacks.
Personally, I believe that''s a shabby way to behave, but hey, it''s a big internet.

The most vocal people here on this thread can not seem to separate the discussion about personal attacks, with one about reflector technology.

One question:
Why are you all so afraid of even allowing a different viewpoint to be heard?


No one here is properly asserting my point- and in fact, many have been attributing things to me that in no way accurately reflect my views on this.
I believe a discussion is called for, I am quite ready to have one- hopefully in a civilized manner- without personal attacks.


I did obtain two diamonds and sent them off to Dave Atlas- a gentleman. He has run the sarins, and provided the imagem images.
I will start a thread to allow for this discussion.
If you are interested, I would welcome an open discourse of ideas- using two diamonds as a basis for discussion. By no means a statistically valid cross sample- rather two 1/2 carat diamonds to use as an example.
I invite anyone interested to participate.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/14/2009 5:27:40 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

One question:

Why are you all so afraid of even allowing a different viewpoint to be heard?




No one here is properly asserting my point- and in fact, many have been attributing things to me that in no way accurately reflect my views on this.

ok you are really asking for a blunt reply so don't go crying waaaahhhh someone is picking on me.
Its not your viewpoints that are the problem it is you and how you express them.

It is no surprised that no one entirely knows what your viewpoint is because of the way you act who wants to listen to you? plus you are to busy playing a wounded whiner that you haven't expressed it in detail.

 

[Rockdiamond]

strmrdr -even tangentially discussing my views on this subject have elicited the type of name calling you just engaged in.
It''s cool- I''ve been reading PS long enough to know what to expect, and from whom.

I still feel that many people reading would be interested in such a conversation without the name calling and personal attacks.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/14/2009 7:33:22 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
strmrdr -even tangentially discussing my views on this subject have elicited the type of name calling you just engaged in.

It''s cool- I''ve been reading PS long enough to know what to expect, and from whom.


I still feel that many people reading would be interested in such a conversation without the name calling and personal attacks.

If you don''t want an honest opinion then don''t ask for it.
Then post it on your site if you don''t want discussion.

How about all the consumers you have went after for daring to disagree with you.
But when they come back on you they are just picking on you waaaah waaah waaah waaah
as to the rest waaah waaah waaah waah is what I hear.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl, calling someone names, and offering an honest opinion are two different things to many of us.
But I did not ask what you thought of me- rather if you were willing to engage in a civil conversation.

A conversation where people contribute viewpoints- and can be made infinitely more interesting if not every person has the same viewpoint. Also far more fun ( and civil) if it does not degrade into calling each other jerks.

I've already sent the two diamonds, and Dave has done his work.
Hopefully I'll have the thread up today or tomorrow.
Please come in and let's exchange ideas!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Boy''s Boy''s

David - his name is Storm (we use handles) - and Storm, cut some slack - for the first time I am aware of David has stepped up to the plate.

David we hope you will take some Ideal-scope photo''s as well as the ones you generally take.

here is how
http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.taking_IS_photos.asp
It is very easy and lots of consumers do it for themselves.
The ASET pics are a bit harder.

Dave will give us 3D .gem files I trust?

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 5/14/2009 6:54:06 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/14/2009 5:27:40 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

One question:

Why are you all so afraid of even allowing a different viewpoint to be heard?




No one here is properly asserting my point- and in fact, many have been attributing things to me that in no way accurately reflect my views on this.

ok you are really asking for a blunt reply so don't go crying waaaahhhh someone is picking on me.
Its not your viewpoints that are the problem it is you and how you express them.

It is no surprised that no one entirely knows what your viewpoint is because of the way you act who wants to listen to you? plus you are to busy playing a wounded whiner that you haven't expressed it in detail.

Wow, we must be reading a whole different site!

For the record there actually is picking, has been for awhile. And your comments here are more of the same. Way to kick below the belt and get really personal.....as in dont hold back...tell us how you really feel.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 5/14/2009 10:37:28 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Boy''s Boy''s

David - his name is Storm (we use handles) - and Storm, cut some slack - for the first time I am aware of David has stepped up to the plate.

David we hope you will take some Ideal-scope photo''s as well as the ones you generally take.

here is how
http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.taking_IS_photos.asp
It is very easy and lots of consumers do it for themselves.
The ASET pics are a bit harder.

Dave will give us 3D .gem files I trust?

Well if Karl`s name is Storm....then shouldnt David be refered to as Rock?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/15/2009 3:13:51 AM
Author: Sharon101

Date: 5/14/2009 10:37:28 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Boy''s Boy''s

David - his name is Storm (we use handles) - and Storm, cut some slack - for the first time I am aware of David has stepped up to the plate.

David we hope you will take some Ideal-scope photo''s as well as the ones you generally take.

here is how
http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.taking_IS_photos.asp
It is very easy and lots of consumers do it for themselves.
The ASET pics are a bit harder.

Dave will give us 3D .gem files I trust?

Well if Karl`s name is Storm....then shouldnt David be refered to as Rock?

Clever!
Actually Storm is a consumer (just) and David is trade - trade must give their full name and business name - it is a condition of registration Sahron

 

[FrekeChild]

Speaking as a person who is only a casual observer on RT (and SMTR, or ANY of the mostly diamond sub-forums for that matter), Rockdiamond/David, I have found the tone of your posts to be condescending at best. Speaking as a Colored Stone lover, I think that sucks, because many of the posts of yours that I have read, have persuaded me to not do business with your company, which leaves me with a further limited assortment of colored diamonds to choose from someday when I am capable of such a purchase.

This is NOT a personal attack, and I'd appreciate you to not take it as such. I do not have any kind of affiliation with Storm (or any of the other posters who have *attacked* you) besides a casual acquaintance as a fellow poster on these boards.

I just wanted to let you know that it isn't just those who are vocal and respond back to you that are not exactly encouraged by the tone of your posts. There are thousands of lurkers who read your words, and can make decisions about who to do business with based on those words. So, at least from my perspective, the tone of your posts is hurting your future (and possibly present) business.

Best of luck.

 

[Rockdiamond]

FrekeChild, thank you very much for your honest opinion.
If I''ve written anything that you found insulting, I apologize.
Part of what makes me tick is that I see things my own way- and I have not been shy to discuss that even if my opinion is diametrically opposed to others.
In some way that can be polarizing.
Basically, I''ve found that I thrive on strong feelings. I''d almost rather eat at a restaurant I hate- as opposed to one that''s bland.
When I designed our business, I was not trying to "appeal to the broadest audience" rather to take a stand and design the site the way it appeals to me. In doing so there''s no question that some people will be alienated- while others will be drawn to it.
Basically, I live my life that way. And have posted on PS that way. To add a little context, the reason I rejoined PS was that our company was the target of quite vicoius attacks ( no need to put any quotes there). I say this because I felt I had to come out swinging. In retrospect, I''d probably have been better off waiting till I was less angry before entering that particular frey- but I am not ashamed of anything I''ve done.

If and when you are ready to purchase a colored diamond, remember that we give a special discount to PS members ( even if they don''t like me)

 

[Judah Gutwein]

The written word has the ability to support nobly or to hurt deeply. Sometimes the difference is simply in the syntax.

David, perhaps one problem here as I see it, is that you keep soliciting feedback from those who have previously hurt and insulted you personally. Although they may not be inclined to pro-actively insult you, it is infinitely easier to reactively insult you and especially when you ask for it. Thus you are functioning as a glutton for punishment.

The tradespeople and prosumers here have earned their stripes because of their proven ability to help consumers with invaluable information pertaining to their once in a lifetime purchase. These people have shaped PS by the value of their contributions. You too have the ability to earn your own respect with respect to your own perspectives, experience and advice and there is no question that you have much to offer.

Pricescope is about supplying consumers with the very best information possible and with the working knowledge that consumers online are buying blind. The reflector technologies and others like it, really DO work. That is why these tools are encouraged and supported here and rightfully so. At the same time, the human perspective and personal experience cannot be overstated and nobody is arguing that point.

It is my understanding that you do not refute the superiority and veracity of these technologies but that you are simply encouraging and pointing out an additional perspective and one that has withstood the tests of time. Your articulation of this fixed position in a direct, cogent and civil manner, should make it exceedingly difficult for others to construe your remarks as a refutation of these technologies, thereby painting you as 'outdated', 'stone age' and a 'has been' (along with other 'below the belt' personal characterizations).

You should be responsible for defining your positions and not others for you.

I believe you have much to add and that it is only a matter of how you express yourself here. It is important for all of us to be mindful and respectful of each other. Consumers, prosumers and enthusiasts rely on the knowledge, experience and guidance from members of the trade and vice-versa. This is what makes PS so successful.

Best,

 

[LD]

I'm not sure if this will contribute much but .......

Judah - I admire your posts and the sentiments expressed. Thank you.

I would like to speak as a consumer if I may ...... before joining this site I had no idea what an IS, ASET image, etc was. I'm still a little perpexled if truth be told! I have always bought diamonds with my eyes and heart. Does this make me wrong? No because I get what I love. However, as with everything else, technology advances and there are now more tools to help the average layperson assess a diamonds capabilities before actually asking to see the diamond in person. I think that's a great weapon to have in anybody's armoury. Should people get hung up on the numbers? NO! Should they buy on numbers alone? NO! As I have seen mentioned time and time again, these are simply tools to help select/deselect - good ones at that! I love the way when images are posted the experts chime in and can "see" how the diamond may perform. That's magical!

David, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe using the modern technologies with coloured diamonds doesn't work quite as well as it does for a white round brilliant for example? My understanding is that coloured diamonds are cut to emphasize colour wherever possible? That said, I can understand why you would rather buy with your eyes and heart. Coloured diamonds are your forte, love and passion.

What I really dislike is that there appears to be two camps (1) only the eye will do and (2) technology is the way forward. I just wonder why the two can't live in harmony? I'd like to have the best of both worlds.

I appreciate this thread is more about insults and personal attacks but I believe it stems from having very different opinions as I've mentioned above and perhaps an overly defensive position/stance when the disagreements start. I don't believe either side is wholly correct or incorrect!

 

[Rockdiamond]

What a great post LD!
YES- the type of diamonds we generally carry can''t really be tested using AS/ISET effectively
And YES- the way I look at diamonds is in part, shaped by my love of fancy shapes /colors.
YES there are different parameters cutter go for when working on fancy colors

I think you''ve also give a nice analysis of the difference in opinion.
There''s no question that years ago, I did not even allow room in my mind for the other ways of looking at this.
I was wrong.
I''d like to think it''s possible for the two differing views to co-exist

I am an optimist- so I posted a thread about this subject.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 5/15/2009 11:04:53 AM
Author: Rockdiamond

To add a little context, the reason I rejoined PS was that our company was the target of quite vicoius attacks ( no need to put any quotes there). I say this because I felt I had to come out swinging. In retrospect, I''d probably have been better off waiting till I was less angry before entering that particular frey- but I am not ashamed of anything I''ve done.

David,

I am reading this thread now and would like to understand the "context" of which you speak. I know nothing of your rejoining Pricescope because I know nothing of your having left Pricescope prior to that. Can you either give me a quick précis of your story or link me to some threads where I can read it? Thank you.

AGBF

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 5/15/2009 11:33:51 AM
Author: Judah Gutwein
The written word has the ability to support nobly or to hurt deeply. Sometimes the difference is simply in the syntax.

David, perhaps one problem here as I see it, is that you keep soliciting feedback from those who have previously hurt and insulted you personally. Although they may not be inclined to pro-actively insult you, it is infinitely easier to reactively insult you and especially when you ask for it. Thus you are functioning as a glutton for punishment.

The tradespeople and prosumers here have earned their stripes because of their proven ability to help consumers with invaluable information pertaining to their once in a lifetime purchase. These people have shaped PS by the value of their contributions. You too have the ability to earn your own respect with respect to your own perspectives, experience and advice and there is no question that you have much to offer.

Pricescope is about supplying consumers with the very best information possible and with the working knowledge that consumers online are buying blind. The reflector technologies and others like it, really DO work. That is why these tools are encouraged and supported here and rightfully so. At the same time, the human perspective and personal experience cannot be overstated and nobody is arguing that point.

It is my understanding that you do not refute the superiority and veracity of these technologies but that you are simply encouraging and pointing out an additional perspective and one that has withstood the tests of time. Your articulation of this fixed position in a direct, cogent and civil manner, should make it exceedingly difficult for others to construe your remarks as a refutation of these technologies, thereby painting you as ''outdated'', ''stone age'' and a ''has been'' (along with other ''below the belt'' personal characterizations).

You should be responsible for defining your positions and not others for you.

I believe you have much to add and that it is only a matter of how you express yourself here. It is important for all of us to be mindful and respectful of each other. Consumers, prosumers and enthusiasts rely on the knowledge, experience and guidance from members of the trade and vice-versa. This is what makes PS so successful.

Best,

I feel, no doubt, that some of us slightly "older" members of the trade who started in the very late 70''s-early 80''s remember 60/60 as the "best" cut diamond.
As much as we hear about AGS 000, and "branded ideal cuts" today...we heard the 60/60 mantra back then.
That was then...this is now.

I was introduced to the trade in 1978, as a family business owner, but totally embrace how far we have come in technology, expertise and transparency!
I still "prefer" a slightly larger table, but I also understand the importance of cut and brilliance and I love using the tools to show my clients.
I''ve learned a ton since discovering PS years ago and I continue to learn everyday. We all benefit when we are respectful of everyone''s opinion.

A well developed topic..thanks Judah and everyone!

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[Sharon101]

I am guessing that the vendors who use and are familiar with the technology and images also use their eyes to assess the diamond in question. Im also guessing that they can almost predict how a scope will look just going by the numbers. I have been impressed when a vendor picks up when the image does not match up to the diamond in question, thus indicating a mixup. This would mean that these vendors are really well informed about how the scopes should llook for a given range of numbers.

For the vendors who use this technology, are there ever any surprises. I think once Garry said he sometimes rejects stones that his eyes might have said yes to. But does it ever work the other way around?

And finally, in a conversation without factoring cost, I can see how a rational consumer would want the best rb diamond complete with a perfect scan to prove it. But, I think the point that David might be trying to make is that when it comes time for the consumer to actually hand over $$$$$, many will choose a bigger looking diamond that to them looks similar in sparkliness, and equal in attractiveness. As someone who knows the industry myself, and has seen very knowlegable shoppers making their decisions (but with other stones) they do not always end up buying the `best` piece, sometimes they factor in the size and still end up with a enviable piece.

So, imo, arguing without costs and I can see 100% why you would want the most precise numbers possible. But, due to the reality of balancing the 4 c`s, you will get different priorities about which really is the best and most beautiful. And Im sure even in these categories it is not black and white. Eg My budget would buy a top cut and colour eternity ring so I would strive to get the diamonds that have these attributes. In this case I am in heaven with the education I have learnt here on PS. But, for my larger diamonds, for myself and my Mum, we have garden variety cut, but good sparkle to the eye, and this has been very rewarding for us.

Conclusion is that education and technology are always a good thing. Costs and market will determine whether its a top end thing or a mainstream thing. At the moment I think its a top end thing or a niche market. Especially since there are many good alternatives for the average diamond buyer (note. not including crappy looking diamonds here).

 

[arjunajane]

I had my post in this thread written out, than deleted it all.
I don''t need a headache from head-to-wall banging.

Honestly, if some of the comments being leveled against some of the vendors by consumers
are being taken as "personal attacks", than they need to grow a thicker skin.

Judah, you made good points and a good post , my comments are in no way directed towards you.