When Tradespeople Engage In Personal Attacks, Everyone Is A Loser

[Judah Gutwein]

Friends,

I thought I'd make a quick observation and with no intention to address a particular poster(s).
Perhaps this thread would be the appropriate venue to share this thought....my own opinion, of course.
(**thread influenced somewhat by recent exchanges between tradespeople in certain threads)

We all know that when it comes to a discussion regarding the finite science as well as subjective reasoning pertaining to diamond beauty, there are strong perspectives and positions articulated by many of the knowledgeable consumers and tradespeople on these boards. Nobody is debating (the fact) that fact is fact and opinion is opinion. Agreeably, those lines are sometimes blurred. Still, God knows that when it comes to diamonds you have objective and subjective reasoning running the gamut of the practical/rational to the emotional/psychological. There are so many permutations and considerations that will influence ones perspective which sometimes supercedes a simple consideration of science and opinion.

Within this context, there is nothing wrong with tradespeople coming on board to perhaps vociferously point out flaws in the objective reasoning and science (you cannot argue with an opinion, imo.. of their colleagues and peers.

However, when these arguments are supported, buffered and augmented by harsh personal (and sometimes downright hostile) attacks by one tradesperson against another, the message gets lost in the rhetoric.

From the consumers perspective, I imagine that (and Pricescope is first and foremost a forum for the empowerment of the consumer) this kind of exchange between vendors or fellow tradespeople only serves to diminish the respect for the individuals on both sides of the argument.

Ultimately, vendors and tradespeople are contributing here for the benefit of the consumer. Indeed, the vendors and tradespeople already know their 'facts' and have already formulated their own 'opinions'. It can even be said to a degree that you cannot 'teach on old dog new tricks'. So the bottom line is that tradespeople here are contributing primarily for the benefit of the consumer and so they should be.

How then is it a "benefit" for the consumer to see a tradesperson come on board to (sometimes almost gleefully) personally denigrate a colleague in an effort to set them straight on the facts??

Putting yourself into the shoes of a consumer, wouldn't you simply say 'a pox on both of you' and walk away.

It is one thing to disagree with a fellow colleague on finite principles and facts. Within this context, perhaps a tradesperson even feels and deserves a mandate to come on board and point out these errors for the benefit of the consumer.....

....but personal barbs and slings should have no place within these exchanges....I believe it is even against the forum rules.

Moreover, the fact that the vendor/tradesperson on the receiving end of this abuse may be repeating and articulating the same 'mistakes' again and again with respect to the factual veracity of their arguments, should be no excuse for the tradesperson on the giving end to continue to heap the negative personal commentary in an effort to 'finally set him straight'.

Consumers who frequent these boards long enough, will come to realize on their own how to separate fact from fiction and how to formulate their own ideas based upon the information at their disposal. They will come to understand the perspectives articulated by each specific tradesperson and will choose on their own as to how they filter that information.

To think that these same consumers require one tradesperson to personally affront another in a misguided attempt to educate and force home a point, is insulting to their intelligence and counterproductive, imo.

Just my two cents.

 

[strmrdr]

Good Morning.

While reading your post several things came to mind.
First was yes it is a good thing to keep personal attacks in check.
But some of the biggest advances in PS information and learning have come from such disagreements.
PS has always been a bit of the wild west.
It is part of the character and history of the site.
For me PS is about the pursuit of correct information.
It does get very tiring when someone posts incorrect information time after time and instead of helping people the pros and prosumers have to spend time and energy fixing what others break.
It gets old after a while and leads to some harsh words.

When it is an issue of just what the correct information is then it is often resolved in a manner that consumers get the best possible answer.

Where it does get bad is when there is no compromise possible while keeping the answers correct and or someone is not willing to consider all sides.

There is another issue, when professionals are sickeningly sweet to each other it at times comes off as totally fake and is fake and it is just as harmful as arguing.

I think pricescope and its posters do a good job of keeping it real and that is the most important thing.
If that means an occasional harsh word then so be it.
I am more than willing to tangle with someone that is being bullheaded but I would much rather spend my time on my research and helping others.
But having been called the most feared consumer in the diamond world (I have chilled out since then a little) maybe that is just my way of thinking.

 

[DiamondFlame]

Well said.

In the short few months since I joined PS, I've seen these sort of spats happened a few times. It gets old fast and is unbecoming behavior to say the least.
Why don't they just agree to disagree and get on with business...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/12/2009 12:05:22 PM
Author: strmrdr
Good Morning.

While reading your post several things came to mind.
First was yes it is a good thing to keep personal attacks in check.
But some of the biggest advances in PS information and learning have come from such disagreements.
PS has always been a bit of the wild west.
It is part of the character and history of the site.
For me PS is about the pursuit of correct information.
It does get very tiring when someone posts incorrect information time after time and instead of helping people the pros and prosumers have to spend time and energy fixing what others break.
It gets old after a while and leads to some harsh words.

Bravo!!!!!!!!

 

[beach]

I think that many of the arguments are healthy and help advance PS. However, there are of course some that go a little too far though with the rebutals... The consumers should not be shielded from this at all because helps gives them different perspectives IMO. Just like any other profession some people in the trade are a little wacky and opinionated. Again, some things could be said with more respect though... I look at it like a movie

It is great when narcissists battle because nobody wins and they both get so angry! In the end, I can at least appreciation their passion though. They just need to learn how to convey that better...

I think one of the bigger issues is how so many PS members join up with certain members on every argument and form these elitist clicks. What happened to having your own opinion? It is like they wait for a particular person to say something then they all go to their defense LOL... It is very amusing and reminds me of high school.... Agreeing on every single topic? Come on...

Another issue is how some PS members only compliment certain members and their rings etc... It leads me to believe that many of you actually keep lists of members you don't want to talk too lol!!! Really??? I must say that PS is an interesting social experiment!! I have learned alot about diamonds on this forum but I have also learned alot about people and how they react in various interpersonal situations too. PS is a great place to learn, vent, get jealous, compliment others, get attacked, and learn how to post pictures..... So interesting and it is all free !!!

 

[risingsun]

Well said, Judah and Strm. Several of these tradespeople have made it a point to be condescending to PS consumers, as well. I joined PS to become educated and many of us on this forum take this quite seriously. I could go to an old school B&M jeweler, if I wanted to be treated this way. Fortunately, my B&M jeweler is new school. It''s difficult to help other posters, when vendors such as Rockdiamond and Ira W come into discussions with their own agenda. Judah is correct, everyone becomes a loser in such exchanges. There certainly have been any number of heated discussions on PS, but these are usually informed by factually based material. What has been happening lately is nothing of the sort. Much attitude and not much pertinent information, IMO. I am referring to RD and IW in my comments because I was involved in that recent thread.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 5/12/2009 12:30:01 PM
Author: risingsun
Well said, Judah and Strm....

...sort of a bit confusing to support them both...which I do overall, too.

Three points:

1) If Judah is asking you to side with him, Storm is staking out the other side.

Given this dichotomy, given the need to pick a side, with both having articulated the points of view pretty well, without vigor, I do side with Karl.

2) When you provide a forum, and agree each will comment on the other, creative ideas may be called for, when one side says: "OK, now you've told me about X, now you tell me what YOU think of me.

The motivation to respond, I think, comes from multiple things:

a) The desire for the aesthetic of communication to be simple and clear, i.e., a topic is raised, there is an interest, given the sense of both aesthetic, and appreciation for the environment of Pricescope to effectively do what it might, and have topics...especially ones of interest...be able to do what they are calling out to do, and address themselves, vs getting mired in something circular.

b) a motivation to separate out fact from opinion, and commitment to helping tease out where one ends, and the other begins. In the case of diamonds, arguments can be made for rb's to pattern for the former, and fancies to the latter. The case is not final, surely, but there is a case.

3) Judah, I would like to add that I do typically, if not always, find your comments represent value added contributions, and I always look forward to them. That these sort of comments come from you adds an additional spin of interest I will stand down from commenting on...except to say that everything is politics in one way or another, and I once again value your having initiated this thread.

 

[Diamond Explorer]

I think this thread is reaction to a very recent thread where the merits of the different reflector technologies and current definitions of ideal cut where brought up. I think the crux of the matter is that the new technologies are changing the way people see diamonds beauty. We have become able to make diamonds that follow the strictest parameters, and can easily be checked with IS/ASET technology. This changes the way most people see diamonds, they are becoming less of an art-form ( with rounds at least) and much more of an advanced science.

While this is good for highly specialized diamond cutters, I can see how this threatens the mystery and allure for some. There are simply two conflicting schools, and both have very valid points. I think we have to sometimes acknowledge the art of diamonds a bit more on these threads, but to disregard the science, now that is crazy!

Lets Hug It Out!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Amazing post Judah! One thing I might add....remove the word tradespeople. Personal attacks made by anyone lessen all of us.
I wholeheartedly agree with Regular Guy that Judah's intention was at the other end of the spectrum from Karl.
I for one, would like to apologize to anyone- vendor, or trades-person- who I may have "crossed the line" with.
The line Judah describes so well is the one where differences of opinion are mutated into attacking the person.

If someone comes to PS and asks "Please help me interpret this IS/ASET", I do not get involved.
If someone starts a conversation about the merits of using IS and ASET, I believe that a different viewpoint, discussed respectfully, enriches the conversation.
To those who feel the IS/ASET are so good at what they do, why is it a threat to hear another viewpoint?
NO matter how passionate any of us may be, the grading of diamonds is subjective.

Someone mentioned my "agenda".
I'm extremely proud of my posts here- and elsewhere.
I've answered many questions here having nothing to do with our diamonds, or making a sale.
I've gotten MANY letter from folks who applauded me for taking a stand. People who may have loved their diamond only to be told it was a "bad diamond" based on statistics, taken as facts.

I've also been the subject of quite viscous personal attacks for simply having a different viewpoint.
As Judah points out- personal attacks lessen ALL of us.

 

[oldminer]

Judah, great post and good food for thought whenever we respond here. I wordsmith like a good carpenter, measure twice and type once. I spend time thinking about the choice of words, and the tone of any response. I try to remove and anger or frustration which I might inadvertantly show in replies. I look to depersonalize responses and make them more generalized. Not only does this limit the needless anger or frustration other respondents will have later in the thread with me, but it gives the thread a much longer life of interest to those who come to read it. Few people want to read loads of personal comments, but they sure do want to learn about diamonds and about the people who make their living with them at every level. The more professionally we treat one another, the better the industry looks to our most valuable commodity, consumers.

The opposing view is that argumentative comments can often advance the depth of the thread, too. In some cases a louder tone of voice does get people to blow off some steam and also reveal some fact or two they would not normally post anywhere. While it can become a bit ugly, it is a part of the open atmosphere of the Internet that lets us all see the personality of those who let it all hang out from time to time. We do have some passionate writers who say what comes to mind openly and unedited. This can be fun and informative, but it often is not the best information available. It can make for some entertainment and excitement. We have had those who came her and simply made fools of themselves arguing and never suggesting anything positive. We also have people who argue loudly, but provide a unique perspective while making their case. Right or wrong, they make the case they wish to present. It is all good, but sometimes people who present themselves poorly hurt their reputations because of lack of forethought, not for lack of knowledge.

When I have a long post to make, I often type it out on MS Word and edit it several times before pasting it into the Pricescope submission block. I think about the consequences of what I''ve written. WIll it do more good than harm? Will it create anger needlessly? Is it understandable? Etc, etc. I don''t want Pricescope to become boring, either. A little humor smoothes the nerves. A question rather than a statement often gets a softer response.

 

[purrfectpear]

I have to disagree that it makes the consumer run from BOTH of the experts.

I think it often brings out the true colors of whether the "expert" status is earned or just "claimed"

Personally I respect an expert that is willing to point out when the emperor has no clothes and it makes me MORE likely to support him, as I can see he isn''t going to put up with pseudo "I like it - therefore it''s great" opinions lacking in empirical data.

In my personal opinion I''m a little weary of so called experts whose main claim to fame is some long-in-the-tooth former job, or another who has a website that up until recently touted clarity enhanced diamonds as being a good choice for consumers.

Fortunately we can all determine the veracity of who is an expert and who is not.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Purrfect- I love the saying at the end of your posts.
Knowing who one is, and not giving a damn.

I sincerely believe Judah''s intent was to point out that personal attacks serve little purpose- and can quite possibly do damage.
But if you feel differently, please go ahead- insult.
I know who I am.

 

[Tuckins1]

I totally agree that personal attacks and rude snippy comments have no place here. From a vendor or another member. Period.

 

[jet2ks]

Sorry, couldn''t resist.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Judah, your left ear lobe hangs lower than your right.

And your momma wears combat boots.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/12/2009 10:08:08 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Judah, your left ear lobe hangs lower than your right.


And your momma wears combat boots.

LOL u crack me up!!!

 

[HeartingDiamonds]

Date: 5/12/2009 10:08:08 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Judah, your left ear lobe hangs lower than your right.


And your momma wears combat boots.

ROTFL!!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/12/2009 10:08:08 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Judah, your left ear lobe hangs lower than your right.

And your momma wears combat boots.

* monitor wearing my morning coffee* thanks Rich!

 

[DiamondFlame]

Iirc 'experts' used to think that personal computing is pure fantasy, that there is only room for 2-3 supercomputers in the world.

Let's not get too hung up on 'facts'. The 'purists' seem to hold on to the mistaken belief that every consumer wants the brightest sparkliest diamond and would point out that the angle combo is sub-optimal, ASET doesn't look great, too much leakage etc. Take away the IS, ASET, HCA, C/P angles, etc and what do you have left? Someone who's too afraid to trust his own eyes. Our forefathers have been buying and cutting great looking diamonds WITHOUT these technologies. I'm not sure if anyone could appreciate the possibiility that the IS, ASET, HCA stuff have already been 'factored in' by the brain through years of experience. Computers are simply no match for the human mind. I'm not against the use of technology but they should not be the final word in assessing a diamond's beauty. I'd much rather pick a diamond cut by a master craftsman over one cut through precision engineering.

Btw do you think that if you were to line up Pricescopers' 'perfect' H&As or RBs side by side, barring the size/color differences they probably look very much like 'clones' of each other?

Care to start such a thread in SMTR?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/13/2009 1:07:55 PM
Author: DiamondFlame
Iirc 'experts' used to think that personal computing is pure fantasy, that there is only room for 2-3 supercomputers in the world.

Let's not get too hung up on 'facts'. The 'purists' seem to hold on to the mistaken belief that every consumer wants the brightest sparkliest diamond and would point out that the angle combo is sub-optimal, ASET doesn't look great, too much leakage etc. Take away the IS, ASET, HCA, C/P angles, etc and what do you have left? Someone who's too afraid to trust his own eyes. Our forefathers have been buying and cutting great looking diamonds WITHOUT these technologies. I'm not sure if anyone could appreciate the possibiility that the IS, ASET, HCA stuff have already been 'factored in' by the brain through years of experience. Computers are simply no match for the human mind. I'm not against the use of technology but they should not be the final word in assessing a diamond's beauty. I'd much rather pick a diamond cut by a master craftsman over one cut through precision engineering.

Btw do you think that if you were to line up Pricescopers' 'perfect' H&As or RBs side by side, barring the size/color differences they probably look very much like 'clones' of each other?

Care to start such a thread in SMTR?

Actually the veteran PSers try hard to find out what each poster wants, although cut quality is obviously a very popular subject here not everyone wants the very best cut they can get. As for ASET and IS when working with diamonds online as consumers helping other consumers they are all we have to go by and are essential, as without them it would be very difficult to get a good assessment of any diamond. Particularly if we are to get a good idea of certain proportion configurations which could work well or not as the case may be.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/13/2009 1:07:55 PM
Author: DiamondFlame
The 'purists' seem to hold on to the mistaken belief that every consumer wants the brightest sparkliest diamond and would point out that the angle combo is sub-optimal, ASET doesn't look great, too much leakage etc. Take away the IS, ASET, HCA, C/P angles, etc and what do you have left? Someone who's too afraid to trust his own eyes. Our forefathers have been buying and cutting great looking diamonds WITHOUT these technologies. I'm not sure if anyone could appreciate the possibiility that the IS, ASET, HCA stuff have already been 'factored in' by the brain through years of experience. Computers are simply no match for the human mind. I'm not against the use of technology but they should not be the final word in assessing a diamond's beauty. I'd much rather pick a diamond cut by a master craftsman over one cut through precision engineering.

I can’t think of any of the regulars who would suggest that any of the technologies would trump what a shopper counts as the most beautiful stone. What it does do is hold the dealers feet to the fire when they make a pronouncement that one stone is better than another, presumably as a means of justifying the price. It’s a reasonable answer for a skeptical person to say ‘prove it’ and these technologies provide a way to address that question. It also provides a way for shoppers, when presented with hundreds or even thousands of superficially similar stones to narrow down the field to which ones are worth calling in for a personal inspection and/or appraisal.

Arguments about this can get heated and rather than sharpen their argument it's an easy tactic to resort to personal attacks. This is much easier than writing a persuasive essay. I agree that this strategy has no place in a civil discourse and, equally importantly, it tells the readers more about the attacker than it does about either the subject or the intended target of the attack. For those who don't want to accept the logic that they shouldn't do it because it's wrong, how about this --- Don't do it because it's ineffective.

Ps. My Momma’s a US marine. She kicks ass and yeah, she wears combat boots to do it. What of it?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/13/2009 1:07:55 PM
Author: DiamondFlame


Let''s not get too hung up on ''facts''. The ''purists'' seem to hold on to the mistaken belief that every consumer wants the brightest sparkliest diamond and would point out that the angle combo is sub-optimal, ASET doesn''t look great, too much leakage etc. Take away the IS, ASET, HCA, C/P angles, etc and what do you have left? you use your eyes on diamonds that are 3000 miles away to to buy it, don''t work so well. It is a fact that many consumers don''t have access to enough well cut diamonds to choose from by eye, a lot of local places don''t have one in the store.

Someone who''s too afraid to trust his own eyes. Our forefathers have been buying and cutting great looking diamonds WITHOUT these technologies. they also treated women like property and some even thought they owned other people. WAnt to go back?

I''m not sure if anyone could appreciate the possibility that the IS, ASET, HCA stuff have already been ''factored in'' by the brain through years of experience. in rounds it pretty much confirmed what the best cutters leaned from trial and error, but it makes the information more available and the range has expanded on what is considered a top cut

Computers are simply no match for the human mind. I''m not against the use of technology but they should not be the final word in assessing a diamond''s beauty. I''d much rather pick a diamond cut by a master craftsman over one cut through precision engineering.
master craftsman have been using precision engineering for ever, you cant seperate them, the process is just more streamlined today because you can eliminate some possible combos early in the process, I can do in 10min in DiamCalc that would take a master craftperson a decade to do by trial and error

Btw do you think that if you were to line up Pricescopers'' ''perfect'' H&As or RBs side by side, barring the size/color differences they probably look very much like ''clones'' of each other? that is false depending on the lighting, there is distinct personality difference in ideal cut h&a diamonds

Care to start such a thread in SMTR?

 

[DiamondFlame]

Sorry if my last post seems off-thread. The point I was trying to make was that it is easy to get caught up in ideal combos/images that we tend to disregard suboptimal options that may still be very attractive to the consumer. So yes, I agree this is one of the downside to online diamond assessment.

Lol, Karl...you took my bait on that one. I knew someone would.

Anyway, I still see behaviours here that probably won''t look too out of place in the stone ages. Despite Judah''s well intentions, some people just cannot resist taking snipes and directing the same snide comments at the same ''targets''. Suddenly I feel like its ''preschool'' all over again..

I''ll take my comments back about H and As looking like clones. So what if more people drive Mercs than Jaguars eh?
Btw Karl, I''m not sure if I''m ready to buy my diamonds from a vending machine just yet...

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great Post Diamond Flame!!!
The sentiment is spot on!!

Date: 5/13/2009 1:49:32 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 5/13/2009 1:07:55 PM
Author: DiamondFlame
The ''purists'' seem to hold on to the mistaken belief that every consumer wants the brightest sparkliest diamond and would point out that the angle combo is sub-optimal, ASET doesn''t look great, too much leakage etc. Take away the IS, ASET, HCA, C/P angles, etc and what do you have left? Someone who''s too afraid to trust his own eyes. Our forefathers have been buying and cutting great looking diamonds WITHOUT these technologies. I''m not sure if anyone could appreciate the possibiility that the IS, ASET, HCA stuff have already been ''factored in'' by the brain through years of experience. Computers are simply no match for the human mind. I''m not against the use of technology but they should not be the final word in assessing a diamond''s beauty. I''d much rather pick a diamond cut by a master craftsman over one cut through precision engineering.

I can’t think of any of the regulars who would suggest that any of the technologies would trump what a shopper counts as the most beautiful stone. What it does do is hold the dealers feet to the fire when they make a pronouncement that one stone is better than another, presumably as a means of justifying the price. It’s a reasonable answer for a skeptical person to say ‘prove it’ and these technologies provide a way to address that question. It also provides a way for shoppers, when presented with hundreds or even thousands of superficially similar stones to narrow down the field to which ones are worth calling in for a personal inspection and/or appraisal.

Arguments about this can get heated and rather than sharpen their argument it''s an easy tactic to resort to personal attacks. This is much easier than writing a persuasive essay. I agree that this strategy has no place in a civil discourse and, equally importantly, it tells the readers more about the attacker than it does about either the subject or the intended target of the attack. For those who don''t want to accept the logic that they shouldn''t do it because it''s wrong, how about this --- Don''t do it because it''s ineffective.

Ps. My Momma’s a US marine. She kicks ass and yeah, she wears combat boots to do it. What of it?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

We agree on many issues- and there''s no one I have greater respect for than Neil- but we do have differing viewpoints on a few of these issues.

1) I have seen- on many occasions- consumers knock stones based only on angles and measurements.
I have seen consumers knock stones based on even less. I sincerely believe that the comments were made in a genuine effort to assist the person asking the question- but that does not change the fact that many times stones are knocked with less than adequate evidence.

2) The issue of reflector technology is clearly a heated one. I do not believe that the "proof" offered by reflectors is as "foolproof" as it''s made out to be.


Of course, making such a statement, here on PS, has lead to attacks that any reasonable person would agree, do nothing to forward the conversation, or the quality of the group as a whole.

BTW- My granny is a Green Beret, and she can kick any of y''all ASS!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/13/2009 2:37:32 PM
Author: DiamondFlame
Sorry if my last post seems off-thread. The point I was trying to make was that it is easy to get caught up in ideal combos/images that we tend to disregard suboptimal options that may still be very attractive to the consumer. So yes, I agree this is one of the downside to online diamond assessment.



Lol, Karl...you took my bait on that one. I knew someone would.

Anyway, I still see behaviours here that probably won''t look too out of place in the stone ages. Despite Judah''s well intentions, some people just cannot resist taking snipes and directing the same snide comments at the same ''targets''. Suddenly I feel like its ''preschool'' all over again..


I''ll take my comments back about H and As looking like clones. So what if more people drive Mercs than Jaguars eh?

Btw Karl, I''m not sure if I''m ready to buy my diamonds from a vending machine just yet...

Yes I knew I was responding to a troll post but it was an opportunity to post factual information.

Buying diamonds online from drop shippers is just like buying diamonds from a vending machine.
The only information you have is the pretty wrapper (grading report)
Buying diamonds with the help of the PS pro-sumers with the commonly asked for information can be compared to using a smart friend to help get over the moat into the treasure room.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/13/2009 2:43:15 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

1) I have seen- on many occasions- consumers knock stones based only on angles and measurements.

What they understand and you don''t is that a round brilliant is defined by the angles because the facet location is fixed in place by the design.
This is not true of fancy shapes.

 

[denverappraiser]

I said it was reasonable for a shopper to ask for ‘proof’. I agree that there are valid disagreements over what would be an acceptable answer to that question and that there is no universally ‘correct’ answer. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Pricescope, by it’s nature, has a whole lot of people providing mostly unedited and unsupervised advice and yes, that produces some problems (and some of the personal attacks that are the subject of this thread). This place has evolved in the last few years and continues to do so and I think the current state is fairly level handed. There has developed a core of regular posters who are generally pretty careful about steering someone towards or away from a particular stone without first being clear that there are some limitations to what can and can’t be learned from analyzing an image.

I mostly don’t read and never participate in those threads about ‘help me choose between several stones’ so perhaps my perception is skewed but the advice given generally seems to be pretty reasonable and well explained. Almost always the issue is a shopper who is trying to choose a stone from a database of tens of thousands of stones that they can't see in person. They're trying to make a decision based on whatever limited information is available and in a situation where ordering in the stone for a personal inspection is prohibitively expensive, unacceptably slow or both. They quite reasonably want a fair amount of confidence that it's going to be acceptable before moving on to the next step. There is, or at least can be, valuable data inculcated in the ASET and IS images as well as photomicrographs of the stones and it's far from obvious for inexperienced viewers to know how to 'read' any them.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[DiamondFlame]

Dear God, here we go again. Now where's that darn button?

It seems stuck on AUTO-REPEAT...

 

[purrfectpear]

Again we have the anti-tech folks who fall back on "but there are consumers who love them" when that is all that is left.

Yes, there ARE people who will buy less than optimal diamonds. There are people who will buy diamonds based soley on size, or based on "if it doesn''t show big carbon spots, it''s good enough". There are people who are completely uneducated about diamonds, and have no wish to learn anything beyond what the salesman says they should love.

All of those consumers exist. There is no arguement there. The point being, is that the lowest common denominator that we want to encourage on Pricescope? If a salesguy that works behind the counter says "it''s the best diamond going, you''ll love it" they should take his word for it?

Because we''ve already had a bunch of posters whose "family jeweler", "best friend", "uncle''s wholesaler", or "my boss''s really good contact" have told them that the diamond they were sold was the "best" only to discover it was anything but.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Dmitri has a great point.
I have obtained a diamond with a 60% table- to compare to an AGS O cut grade.
I'll start a thread on that subject.
It would seem that discussing specifics of how to judge the diamond is off topic for this thread.

The subject of this thread is how personal attacks refelct badly on the person doing the attacking, and the forum itself.
The point is that attacking someone personally seems to be a very poor manner of having any type of discussion.

Purrfect- I ask this with all due respect- how do you feel about that point?