When Is Euthanasia Okay?

[innerkitten]

It is extreme but at the same time I feel it should be an option. I knew someone with lung cancer many years ago that chose something similar. One of her lungs had already collapsed and she was terrified about what was to come, so she made the decision to end it her way. She gave away all her things before her death and I still have a pair of earrings she gave me that remind me of her.

 

[vc10um]

Laurie, I think that is one of the most painfully beautiful things I've read on this site. Thank you for sharing your experiences...I am sure that in some way, they will help someone else reading this thread.

I agree with Circe's post completely, and Chrono has hit my personal nail on the proverbial head: I would not want to be a burden to others. If I am ever in the unfortunate situation where this is the case, I would hope by that time euthanasia and going on my own terms would be an option.

 

[justginger]

I am a supporter of medically facilitated suicide. I think it shows basic human compassion to allow people to ultimately decide what they are or are not capable of handling in life, with counseling and education along the way. There are so many shades of gray (50?) to the overall topic though, with every situation unique in itself. Obviously what one person can tolerate and endure is not the same as another. I would much rather people feel comfortable addressing the topic, working through possibilities, talking to their relatives, and taking the steps necessary to get to the end point peacefully - versus other methods that damage friends, family, and perhaps even strangers along the way (how do those train drivers feel when they run over another human being?).

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I believe everyone has the right to end their life when they decide it is right. It is not my job to judge or shame. Only to accept that I don't get to decide how other people live (or end) their lives.

 

[Matata]

Laurie,
Thank you for sharing your story.

 

[JewelFreak]

You're welcome, vc10um & Matata. If it helps anyone understand even a little the depths that condition takes its victims to, it's worth writing. Tragic on all parts.

--- Laurie

 

[iLander]

Laurie, I'm so glad you were able to work through that. People don't realize how tricky brain chemicals can be, and that depression is very common. I try to impress the impact of chemicals in the body upon my kids by telling them how tiny a nitro glycerin tablet is, and how it's chemicals can start your heart in seconds, even though it's a smidge.

I'm glad you're here and better, PS would not be the same without you.

 

[JewelFreak]

Aw, iLander, you're a major honey! Ditto to you. It's been many years since I felt that way, thanks to good drs. It's important for people with real depression to know that they must keep trying -- often takes a few prescriptions (& sometimes concurrent counseling) to come up with the one that does the trick. There are so many options today & more always coming, so don't quit!

I am always so sad hearing of people who euthanized themselves because of depression; I always think, "If they'd waited another day....!" Some can't.

Good to get your kids thinking about brain chemistry, iLander! All children should grow up conscious of that because brain chemistry affects the rest of their bodies -- depression, e.g., influences the adrenal glands to produce more adrenaline, causing an amorphous feeling of dread & fear. And of course there's the wonderful subject of illicit drugs. Great job to bring it all up with them!

--- Laurie

 

[anne_h]

Always ok as long as the person receiving it has the mental capacity to make that decision.

Totally agree with this. I think generally we make far too big a deal about death.

Anne

 

[House Cat]

Laurie,

I just wanted to thank you for your open and tenderhearted reply. I understand depression and suicidal thinking more than most, I really do. I have bipolar disorder. I didn't mean to come off as angry or unforgiving in my post. I think the hurt will stick around whether I can sympathize with his actions or not.

I'm really happy to hear that you have found the right meds and have moved on to recovery. You are a triumph. I hope you hold that dear to your heart.


Ilander, thank you for your compassion. It means a lot to me.

 

[JewelFreak]

Housecat, honey, you didn't come across as angry -- just very very hurt, which I can feel deeply. It's the only natural reaction for someone who loves. And you love & that makes you special. Sometimes understanding helps us heal & I was trying to give you a picture of the pain that drives people to the end of the road, not perceiving the lifelong hurt they deliver to those who, in their unhappy view, they think they spare. I see you understand anyway. Bipolar is very tough to deal with -- I hope you've found good treatment too, and wish you a bright peaceful future.

Hugs!

--- Laurie

 

[HollyS]

"When Is Euthanasia Okay?"

When someone is brain dead, being kept alive on artificial support . . . and there is no hope. The family's choice to make.
When someone is suffering from ALS and wants to swallow a bunch of pills while they can still swallow. The patient's choice.
Or any other example thereof.



Helen Keller was born a blind deaf mute and yet overcame her circumstances, with help, to lead an inspiring life. What makes life so awful for these two that they think it is better to check out? Who told them they didn't matter?

Life is about the triumph of the human spirit over adversity. Family and friends, who watched them die, should have encouraged them to live life as abundantly and fully as possible. Giving up, and calling their life "suffering", is simply not okay.

I don't care if they "had a choice" and they made "the choice for them". I call BS. Suicide, which this is, is a cop out for not dealing with what life sends you. Oh, boo hoo.

Tell some vet, who came back from war missing limbs and burned over most of his body, going through the pain of countless operations and skin scrapings, that these two ninnies were "suffering". I wonder how they would respond . . .

 

[iLander]

I'm not sure I could figure out how other people truly feel. What is unbearable for one person is no problem for another. As a stupid (but true) example, my DH can eat extremely hot soup. I need some ice cubes. I call him "asbestos man".

I think the thing that impressed me the most was the understanding of their government. It seems very non-judgemental and human to me.

 

[justginger]

"When Is Euthanasia Okay?"

When someone is brain dead, being kept alive on artificial support . . . and there is no hope. The family's choice to make.
When someone is suffering from ALS and wants to swallow a bunch of pills while they can still swallow. The patient's choice.
Or any other example thereof.



Helen Keller was born a blind deaf mute and yet overcame her circumstances, with help, to lead an inspiring life. What makes life so awful for these two that they think it is better to check out? Who told them they didn't matter?

Life is about the triumph of the human spirit over adversity. Family and friends, who watched them die, should have encouraged them to live life as abundantly and fully as possible. Giving up, and calling their life "suffering", is simply not okay.

I don't care if they "had a choice" and they made "the choice for them". I call BS. Suicide, which this is, is a cop out for not dealing with what life sends you. Oh, boo hoo.

Tell some vet, who came back from war missing limbs and burned over most of his body, going through the pain of countless operations and skin scrapings, that these two ninnies were "suffering". I wonder how they would respond . . .

Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to judge the extent of someone's suffering? To my knowledge you do not chair a committee of 'acceptable suffering'. If the government allowed it, their friends and family supported it, how in the world does it affect you in your happy life? How can it possibly affect you enough that you feel it necessary to MOCK them and their decision? If you want to be a hero despite all circumstances that may befall you, please be my guest. Just don't hold others to the same standard. Because that quickly gets turned around on you in other circumstances - like I could hold you you to my standard of empathy and compassion, which you would be falling drastically short of.

Live and let live. Or die.

 

[FrekeChild]

When someone is actively waiting to die. When someone stops fighting and is doing nothing else but waiting for death. If that's from terminal cancer, or depression, that's up to the person to decide.

Holly, you and I disagree on a lot politically, but there have been loads of articles about how suicide has killed more soldiers than those that were killed in combat during active duty. So sure, those vets who have physical problems when they come back from war and go through all of those surgeries, they would probably say that these two gentlemen were not suffering as much as they might be physically.

But these vets are also suffering through PTSD and depression on top of those physical ailments. And they would probably be some of the last people on earth to tell you who should live, who should die and who should judge.

 

[JewelFreak]

It's very easy in our comparatively comfortable lives to know how others should do, or think, or be. Like you, I'll bet, Holly, I do not go for relative morality -- there are rights & there are wrongs, similar across all societies. However, deciding when one's own life is not worth living isn't one of them, in my book. We need to see out of that person's eyes to know.

Comparing regular folks to Helen Keller, one of history's geniuses, strikes me as being angry when someone can't draw, because geeze, DaVinci found it easy. I get the chills imagining the isolation & total dependency of being both blind & deaf -- I can't say those twins' solution wouldn't be my own; can't say it would, either. I'd have to be there to know, heaven forbid.

They faced imprisonment in their own small silent black boxes with no exit & no end. Except the one they took, reportedly with sorrow and hope. I have no idea how old you are, but your certainty about a tragic situation strikes me as very young. Experience teaches us.

--- Laurie

 

[ksinger]

"When Is Euthanasia Okay?"

When someone is brain dead, being kept alive on artificial support . . . and there is no hope. The family's choice to make.
When someone is suffering from ALS and wants to swallow a bunch of pills while they can still swallow. The patient's choice.
Or any other example thereof.



Helen Keller was born a blind deaf mute and yet overcame her circumstances, with help, to lead an inspiring life. What makes life so awful for these two that they think it is better to check out? Who told them they didn't matter?

Life is about the triumph of the human spirit over adversity. Family and friends, who watched them die, should have encouraged them to live life as abundantly and fully as possible. Giving up, and calling their life "suffering", is simply not okay.

I don't care if they "had a choice" and they made "the choice for them". I call BS. Suicide, which this is, is a cop out for not dealing with what life sends you. Oh, boo hoo.

Tell some vet, who came back from war missing limbs and burned over most of his body, going through the pain of countless operations and skin scrapings, that these two ninnies were "suffering". I wonder how they would respond . . .

Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to judge the extent of someone's suffering? To my knowledge you do not chair a committee of 'acceptable suffering'. If the government allowed it, their friends and family supported it, how in the world does it affect you in your happy life? How can it possibly affect you enough that you feel it necessary to MOCK them and their decision? If you want to be a hero despite all circumstances that may befall you, please be my guest. Just don't hold others to the same standard. Because that quickly gets turned around on you in other circumstances - like I could hold you you to my standard of empathy and compassion, which you would be falling drastically short of.

Live and let live. Or die.

This I've never understood, and having had more than my fair share of physical pain now, I understand it less, if that's possible.

Assuming that the human organism has at least as much drive to survival as any on the planet (I would argue MORE, considering our numbers) and has that drive to overcome, I can only assume that the suffering of the person is quite high for him/her to even consider ending his life. The idea (if there is one) that there is some slippery-slope here and that if assisted suicide is made legal, will result in a rush of people to end it all, is pretty silly. Even my own mother, who suffered with ALS (apparently one of those instances of suffering worthy enough to warrant having a "choice", every other suffering soul is just SOL), did not wish to leave one second before she had to, and chose to live to the end. Now, I would say it is in society's interest to discourage suicide for forms of suffering that may be alleviated - like clinical depression which now can be treated medically - and to regulate the conditions of assistance to protect people against those who would not discourage but might actively ENcourage them to die, but other than that, really, what business is it of anyone outside of that person and their family? And to judge that someone's suffering isn't BAD enough? Never. I've had quite enough of that crap on a much smaller level having fibromyalgia. I LOOK OK, therefore I must just be lazy/complaining/etc, if I dare to articulate as a reason for why I might not be doing something, how tired/in pain I am that day. I especially love it when those with zero knowledge of what it's like, proffer advice on what I should do to make it better.

 

[House Cat]

When someone is actively waiting to die. When someone stops fighting and is doing nothing else but waiting for death. If that's from terminal cancer, or depression, that's up to the person to decide.

Holly, you and I disagree on a lot politically, but there have been loads of articles about how suicide has killed more soldiers than those that were killed in combat during active duty. So sure, those vets who have physical problems when they come back from war and go through all of those surgeries, they would probably say that these two gentlemen were not suffering as much as they might be physically.

But these vets are also suffering through PTSD and depression on top of those physical ailments. And they would probably be some of the last people on earth to tell you who should live, who should die and who should judge.

This isn't really posted AT you Freke, this is just on the same subject.

I understand that we must put our energy toward the problem of our veterans who are committing suicide due to their issues from the war or latent issues before they left that because exacerbated by the war. But I wish that we could shift our focus on those who are LIVING with PTSD and TBI every day and SURVIVING. They are the true heroes.

I believe that if more people could come forward and show that these conditions were survivable, that their quality of life could be returned through gentle therapies like EMDR and neuropsych rehab, the suicidal ones might have HOPE.

 

[HollyS]

"When Is Euthanasia Okay?"

When someone is brain dead, being kept alive on artificial support . . . and there is no hope. The family's choice to make.
When someone is suffering from ALS and wants to swallow a bunch of pills while they can still swallow. The patient's choice.
Or any other example thereof.



Helen Keller was born a blind deaf mute and yet overcame her circumstances, with help, to lead an inspiring life. What makes life so awful for these two that they think it is better to check out? Who told them they didn't matter?

Life is about the triumph of the human spirit over adversity. Family and friends, who watched them die, should have encouraged them to live life as abundantly and fully as possible. Giving up, and calling their life "suffering", is simply not okay.

I don't care if they "had a choice" and they made "the choice for them". I call BS. Suicide, which this is, is a cop out for not dealing with what life sends you. Oh, boo hoo.

Tell some vet, who came back from war missing limbs and burned over most of his body, going through the pain of countless operations and skin scrapings, that these two ninnies were "suffering". I wonder how they would respond . . .

Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to judge the extent of someone's suffering? To my knowledge you do not chair a committee of 'acceptable suffering'. If the government allowed it, their friends and family supported it, how in the world does it affect you in your happy life? How can it possibly affect you enough that you feel it necessary to MOCK them and their decision? If you want to be a hero despite all circumstances that may befall you, please be my guest. Just don't hold others to the same standard. Because that quickly gets turned around on you in other circumstances - like I could hold you you to my standard of empathy and compassion, which you would be falling drastically short of.

Live and let live. Or die.

The OP asked "When is it okay?" Not everyone will agree. And I don't have to agree with you. I often do not.

So, Miss Priss, "Live and let live."



And, furthermore, my question was . . . "Who told these two that they did not matter?" Because someone convinced them to die, instead of encouraging them to live. That is my take on THIS particular instance. . . not ALL decisions of this kind.

 

[HollyS]

Oh, and just a "by the way" . . .

This is why I spend less and less time here. THIS.

Either we have silly little discussions about what we're having for dinner, what mascara we use, which hotel in Podunk, USA should we stay at when next we visit Podunk . . . or we have thought provoking discussions about stuff that matters. BUT, someone always has to get their shorts in a twist about another's opinion. Every flippin' time.

We are nothing if not predictable. And just how interesting is that?

 

[Matata]

Holly as has been shown here time after time, often it is not the difference of opinion that knots undies, but the delivery. Your tone often comes across as strident which can hamper others' ability to "hear" what you're writing. Which is a shame because you often have very insightful things to say. You are apparently happy with your communicative style and see no reason to change it, therefore, you also have to be prepared to get as good as you give. I'll miss your voice should you choose not to participate here any longer.

 

[NonieMarie]

Holly as has been shown here time after time, often it is not the difference of opinion that knots undies, but the delivery. Your tone often comes across as strident which can hamper others' ability to "hear" what you're writing. Which is a shame because you often have very insightful things to say. You are apparently happy with your communicative style and see no reason to change it, therefore, you also have to be prepared to get as good as you give. I'll miss your voice should you choose not to participate here any longer.

Very well said!

 

[justginger]

I respect and value differing opinions when delivered with thought and care. I do not appreciate mocking, holier-than-thou judgements being cast around carelessly. Nor do I appreciate name calling.

Sincerely, Miss Priss

 

[HollyS]

I respect and value differing opinions when delivered with thought and care. I do not appreciate mocking, holier-than-thou judgements being cast around carelessly. Nor do I appreciate name calling.

Sincerely, Miss Priss

We post to call someone out, and then wonder why they respond. And, Lord knows, we just cannot let it go. It's a point of pride.

Treadin' trodden trails here. As I said . . . predictable. But thank you for proving my point.

Again, there is no good reason for you to have been personally offended by my original post. None of it was about you, and you don't get to decide how anyone should post, or what they should think, or how they should convey their opinion.

If I'm always much too sanctimonious for your tastes, then ignore my posts. It really is that simple.

Now, since I'm quite done with this, buh-bye.

 

[Snow_Miser]

Holly as has been shown here time after time, often it is not the difference of opinion that knots undies, but the delivery. Your tone often comes across as strident which can hamper others' ability to "hear" what you're writing. Which is a shame because you often have very insightful things to say. You are apparently happy with your communicative style and see no reason to change it, therefore, you also have to be prepared to get as good as you give. I'll miss your voice should you choose not to participate here any longer.

Very well said!

+1!!!

 

[Polished]

For some reason I seem to have stronger feelings over euthanasia than I do over abortion - once a life is already here. I remember a friend of mine had a boyfriend who had skin cancer. He'd had rather a rough life until she came along - ugly divorce. He'd fought this cancer long and hard and really just wanted to give it in and die. In the last month of his life though, the hospital for cancer patients changed locations to a spot with gorgeous lake views and beautiful scenery. My friend spent many hours simply wheeling him around while they enjoyed companionship and the beautiful surroundings. He ended up really enjoying this final month of his life and at least in this case it demphasised the point of not throwing in the towel because you really don't know what's just around the corner.

 

[ksinger]

For some reason I seem to have stronger feelings over euthanasia than I do over abortion - once a life is already here. I remember a friend of mine had a boyfriend who had skin cancer. He'd had rather a rough life until she came along - ugly divorce. He'd fought this cancer long and hard and really just wanted to give it in and die. In the last month of his life though, the hospital for cancer patients changed locations to a spot with gorgeous lake views and beautiful scenery. My friend spent many hours simply wheeling him around while they enjoyed companionship and the beautiful surroundings. He ended up really enjoying this final month of his life and at least in this case it demphasised the point of not throwing in the towel because you really don't know what's just around the corner.

But what you're talking about isn't euthanasia. You're talking about someone changing his frame of mind, which improved his final days certainly, but his end was inevitable and death came for him, positive attitude or not. My husband's mother refused a second course of chemo after her cancer came back and let nature take its course, because the chemo was so incredibly awful she simply could NOT do it again. I'm not going to apply a phrase like "throwing in the towel" because it would imply she had a choice that would have resulted in a different ultimate outcome, and therefore made a poor or morally weak one. She (and others - even ourselves - in similar straits) make hard choices that weigh the quality of life rather than just length. So I guess we're back to who exactly is or should be, arbiter of what is "enough" suffering....

 

[Polished]

But what you're talking about isn't euthanasia.

Sorry I hadn't made it clear - he had wanted to end his life but the means weren't there to do so. Instead it came to a natural conclusion. He did enjoy the final weeks of his life, although it did make it easier on my friend to feel she had played a part in giving him some happy moments before his passing. I don't really see deciding to withdraw from treatment as euthansia, it is something that seems perfectly acceptable and understandable to me and down to personal choice. When I think of euthansia, I think of people going to Swiss clinics and choosing the time and method of death and it involving issues of others assisting the person to die.