What Would You Do: Renovation Impacting Neighbor?

[Demelza]

Hi all,

I have an ethical dilemma and was hoping for some advice.

Here's the situation:

Some of the houses on our block have a distant ocean view and/or views of the mountains. We are currently considering a renovation which would involve us pushing out our kitchen onto what is currently the deck. I'm not entirely sure, but this could potentially impact the view of the neighbor above us (we live on a hill). When in their kitchen or on their deck, instead of seeing past our house out to the water, they would be looking at our new kitchen. Our house isn't going to be any higher than it is currently and we're only proposing an additional 200 sq feet or so. Our neighbors are a lovely older couple with whom we have a very nice relationship. We are planning to talk to them about our plans, but, if they object, what do we do? We currently have a kitchen that is not entirely workable for our family in the long run and this renovation would SIGNIFICANTLY improve our experience of our house. Also worth noting, there are no view ordinances in our city and we have every reason to believe our building plans would be approved by the city. Do we go ahead and improve our house so that it works for our family even if it negatively impacts our very kind neighbors? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this matter!

 

[sonnyjane]

I would be curious as to how much it will impact their view. If you are close with them, I suggest you go to their place for a chat and look out from their place to see how your plans might affect their view.

 

[mjr1]

This is a tough one. Where our summer house is, there are regulations covering this and they are enforced. Really to an extreme. That being said, I would go and "visit" with the couple and really scope out the impact. Go home and think about it. The bottom line is this-neighbors come and go-sometimes with great sadness, other times it is a pleasant change. You can't live your life to meet their needs. They could move out tomorrow. If you are concerned they would make you miserable, well that's a decision only you can make. If they are really upset, I guess they could try and prevent you from doing it (hire a lawyer, challenge you and/or the city)-that has happened in our summer place when something got approved and people didn't agree with it. The deciding board has rarely, if ever been over turned but it has made for some very unpleasant neighbors. Good luck, but remember that this is your house and your decision and your family. The fact hat you are even concerned about it tells me that you would do your best to be considerate and I am sure they will appreciate that.......

 

[sonnyjane]

This is a tough one. Where our summer house is, there are regulations covering this and they are enforced. Really to an extreme. That being said, I would go and "visit" with the couple and really scope out the impact. Go home and think about it. The bottom line is this-neighbors come and go-sometimes with great sadness, other times it is a pleasant change. You can't live your life to meet their needs. They could move out tomorrow. If you are concerned they would make you miserable, well that's a decision only you can make. If they are really upset, I guess they could try and prevent you from doing it (hire a lawyer, challenge you and/or the city)-that has happened in our summer place when something got approved and people didn't agree with it. The deciding board has rarely, if ever been over turned but it has made for some very unpleasant neighbors. Good luck, but remember that this is your house and your decision and your family. The fact hat you are even concerned about it tells me that you would do your best to be considerate and I am sure they will appreciate that.......

I agree that it's your house. You have just as much right to do what you need to improve your home as they do to enjoy a beautiful view.

Regarding the line about "they could move out tomorrow", it they were a younger couple, meh, sure, maybe, but OP said they are an older couple. What if they saved up to buy the "retirement home of their dreams" complete with view of the ocean and then...well... that went away? That's a bit dramatic I know, but I could understand their disappointment if it happened.

That said, I do think, as mentioned earlier, that you should scope out their home and really see how much it would really affect them. If it honestly wouldn't affect it at all, then this is all a moot point. If they really will go from watching sunsets from their dining room to watching you make dinner instead, that's kind of a bummer. Find out for sure.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Before you think about it any more, go and get some wood and cut it to the right length and attach it to your deck at either end with the height set to the new addition. Run string from plank to plank to simulat a roof line. Then go visit the neighbours and see if this is an issue at all.

 

[kenny]

If you feel really bad ... if they lose their ocean view, and if that lower's their home's value by $50,000 write them a check for $25,000 ... or don't remodel or modify the plans.

Or, if what you're doing is fully legal just do your remodel and don't worry bout the neighbors.
They bought a house with a view that was vulnerable.
That's not your fault.
They could have bought a house with a view that was not block-able.

If you can't decide which of these to do, flip a coin.

 

[distracts]

I don't think it's necessary to ask their permission if their are no view ordinances. We have plenty of people building third stories onto their houses and blocking the view of the lake, and nobody's ever been asked.

 

[aljdewey]

I don't think it's necessary to ask their permission if their are no view ordinances. We have plenty of people building third stories onto their houses and blocking the view of the lake, and nobody's ever been asked.

Firmly agree with this - if there are no ordinances, I think it's asking for trouble to go 'ask' permission unless you're willing to amend your plans to their wishes.

In your spot, I wouldn't do that. While I'm a fan of being a good neighbor when it's reasonable, I wouldn't get into the habit of asking others for permission.

 

[missy]

That is a dilemma. I would figure out first for sure if it would block their view. Is your need for the kitchen enough to overcome the loss of your friends/neighbors? I would definitely talk with them after figuring out that it did impact their view and not go ahead with it if it upset them. If you weren't friends with them maybe it would be a different story but you are and it is a very difficult situation.

You mention they are older. What are their future plans? Perhaps they will be moving into a retirement area soon and then the issue will be moot and you can go ahead and build your dream kitchen.

Good luck Demelza. I hope they won't mind and you can go ahead. It can be unpleasant not having a good relationship with your neighbors so that would weigh heavily into my decision and the fact that you are friendly with them makes it that much more difficult a decision.

 

[makemepretty]

It's your house, your property and if you don't have any rules concerning this...then build what you'd like. Please don't ask them because you don't know for sure it will block their view and if it does, well, that's life. I live in an area with lots of woods but if the neighbors decide to cut them all down, I have no say in it. If I don't like it, I can sell my house and move. Actually though, in this economy, I couldn't but it is NOT their responsibility to make me happy.

If you give them a heads up, it's just going to cause them unwanted worry and there's nothing that could be done about it anyway.

 

[Demelza]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

mjr1 -- You are absolutely right that we can't live our life to meet their needs. They would never make our lives miserable or try to stop us, so I have no worries about that whatsoever. I just want to be a good neighbor and was having a difficult time figuring out how much to consider their needs over ours. In the light of day, I feel like what we're proposing is actually relatively minor in the grand scheme of things (i.e. not a third story or massive addition).

Sonnyjane -- The situation is definitely not so dramatic that our new addition will completely block their view. They have lived here for over 20 years and I don't see them going anywhere any time soon. There is really no way for us to be sure how it affects them without actually going into their house. They are quite a bit higher than us, so it will not block all their views by any means -- just the ones from their kitchen and/or deck.

Distracts and Alj -- I agree that we shouldn't ask their permission. Our thinking was that we would talk to them to let me them know what we are proposing and tell them we will do our best to minimize any impact on them. I think I am feeling particularly sensitive to their feelings at the moment because they are in the midst of a battle with the neighbors on the other side who are certifiably insane and making their lives very difficult.

Missy -- Honestly, our need for a bigger kitchen is enough that without one we will probably move. We have two young children and our current kitchen is very, very small. If this house is to work for us as our kids get older and bigger, we need a more workable space. I think deep down I know we are going to go ahead, but I hate the thought of impinging on them in any way.

Makemepretty -- Thank you. Interesting thought to not even bring it up beforehand. I'll have to think about that. It's true that there's nothing they can do to stop us, but I thought giving them a heads up would be considerate. Or maybe it's just a way to assuage my own guilt.

 

[sunseeker101]

Since there's no chance of legal trouble it's probably a good idea to inform your neighbors of your intentions, rather than ask permission. Given their pained situation with other residents they'll probably be thankful for your kind consideration. I know I would be anyway! And whatever the outcome of the meet is, you would have played it fair -- that's all anyone could ask for.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I didn't read through the thread but here are my two cents. I suspect you will need a permit to do such an extension - obviously, I don't know where you live but where I live we are restricted to how far out we can extend or build. When my neighbour was rebuilding, he was legally required to get permission from the block before he was given the permit to extend the back of his home. We all gave him our permission and I regret it to this day as do some of our other neighbours. It completely ruined our view, sunlight, etc. There is still a good relationship but it left a bad taste in our mouths.

 

[kenny]

People vary.
If a person wants to be 'nice' and put their neighbor's view before their own desire to renovate, that person does not need to be corrected so they see think like I do, or even like the majority.

There is no single right choice here that everyone needs to be helped towards.

Since the neighbors are old another option is to delay the renovation till they have passed on.
Then you get to fulfill your own idea of being 'nice' and get your new kitchen, eventually.

 

[marymm]

If I were you, I would go forward with the renovation plans to the point of having the permits issued... once the permits have been issued (or plans approved by the governing body, whatever fits your situation), and you know exactly what the renovation will entail, at that point you can make a decision as to which neighbors to inform.

If your block is neighborly, you may want to advise your closer neighbors that you are undertaking permitted renovation, that contractors/suppliers will be in the area for X period of time, and that you are sensitive to noise/parking concerns.

I am not sure I would inform your upper neighbor(s) specifically or exclusively, and I'm not sure I would present the news in such a way as to convey your concern their view(s) may be diminished. If anything, I would give them the same notice I gave the closer neighbors, about the approved renovations and contractors and noise/parking awareness. But that is just me.

 

[missy]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

mjr1 -- You are absolutely right that we can't live our life to meet their needs. They would never make our lives miserable or try to stop us, so I have no worries about that whatsoever. I just want to be a good neighbor and was having a difficult time figuring out how much to consider their needs over ours. In the light of day, I feel like what we're proposing is actually relatively minor in the grand scheme of things (i.e. not a third story or massive addition).

Sonnyjane -- The situation is definitely not so dramatic that our new addition will completely block their view. They have lived here for over 20 years and I don't see them going anywhere any time soon. There is really no way for us to be sure how it affects them without actually going into their house. They are quite a bit higher than us, so it will not block all their views by any means -- just the ones from their kitchen and/or deck.

Distracts and Alj -- I agree that we shouldn't ask their permission. Our thinking was that we would talk to them to let me them know what we are proposing and tell them we will do our best to minimize any impact on them. I think I am feeling particularly sensitive to their feelings at the moment because they are in the midst of a battle with the neighbors on the other side who are certifiably insane and making their lives very difficult.

Missy -- Honestly, our need for a bigger kitchen is enough that without one we will probably move. We have two young children and our current kitchen is very, very small. If this house is to work for us as our kids get older and bigger, we need a more workable space. I think deep down I know we are going to go ahead, but I hate the thought of impinging on them in any way.

Makemepretty -- Thank you. Interesting thought to not even bring it up beforehand. I'll have to think about that. It's true that there's nothing they can do to stop us, but I thought giving them a heads up would be considerate. Or maybe it's just a way to assuage my own guilt.

Hi Demelza, then I guess you answered your own question. I would just give them a heads up once the project is set to go and let them know so it's not a surprise. Hopefully they will be cool with it since it seems you have little choice other than moving. I hope it all works out well and you end up with a beautiful large kitchen and that your neighbors and you continue a good relationship. I think letting them know beforehand is thoughtful and they will appreciate it. Good luck!

 

[kgizo]

"If your block is neighborly, you may want to advise your closer neighbors that you are undertaking permitted renovation, that contractors/suppliers will be in the area for X period of time, and that you are sensitive to noise/parking concerns."
I agree with this comment. Get your permits and then notify adjoining neighbors. It's nice to drop off a bottle of wine or plant to apologize in advance for the noise and dust, but no apologies for the changes you are making. It is good if they know in advance for crime purposes, too. When renos are done there are often drive bys looking for tools or materials so it helps you both out to communicate.

 

[aljdewey]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

mjr1 -- You are absolutely right that we can't live our life to meet their needs. They would never make our lives miserable or try to stop us, so I have no worries about that whatsoever. I just want to be a good neighbor and was having a difficult time figuring out how much to consider their needs over ours. In the light of day, I feel like what we're proposing is actually relatively minor in the grand scheme of things (i.e. not a third story or massive addition).

Distracts and Alj -- I agree that we shouldn't ask their permission. Our thinking was that we would talk to them to let me them know what we are proposing and tell them we will do our best to minimize any impact on them. I think I am feeling particularly sensitive to their feelings at the moment because they are in the midst of a battle with the neighbors on the other side who are certifiably insane and making their lives very difficult.

Missy -- Honestly, our need for a bigger kitchen is enough that without one we will probably move. We have two young children and our current kitchen is very, very small. If this house is to work for us as our kids get older and bigger, we need a more workable space. I think deep down I know we are going to go ahead, but I hate the thought of impinging on them in any way.

Makemepretty -- Thank you. Interesting thought to not even bring it up beforehand. I'll have to think about that. It's true that there's nothing they can do to stop us, but I thought giving them a heads up would be considerate. Or maybe it's just a way to assuage my own guilt.

Dem, I know it's not your intention to ask permission, but have you thought about what you'll do if they balk or object? You don't think they will, but there's just no way to know. Maybe the stress of dealing w/other neighbors will cause them to behave in a way that you wouldn't expect.

I'm concerned that once you open the discussion, they may assume they have veto power. While it may be your intent to 'inform', it also gives them opportunity to make moves to block you if they so choose, or to express their desire for you not to proceed. If that were to happen, what then? What if they aren't satisfied with your pledge to minimize impact?

 

[aljdewey]

People vary.
If a person wants to be 'nice' and put their neighbor's view before their own desire to renovate, that person does not need to be corrected so they see think like I do, or even like the majority.

There is no single right choice here that everyone needs to be helped towards.

Who said there was?

Kenny, she asked for people's thoughts, and people are giving them. Where's the problem?

 

[Demelza]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

mjr1 -- You are absolutely right that we can't live our life to meet their needs. They would never make our lives miserable or try to stop us, so I have no worries about that whatsoever. I just want to be a good neighbor and was having a difficult time figuring out how much to consider their needs over ours. In the light of day, I feel like what we're proposing is actually relatively minor in the grand scheme of things (i.e. not a third story or massive addition).

Distracts and Alj -- I agree that we shouldn't ask their permission. Our thinking was that we would talk to them to let me them know what we are proposing and tell them we will do our best to minimize any impact on them. I think I am feeling particularly sensitive to their feelings at the moment because they are in the midst of a battle with the neighbors on the other side who are certifiably insane and making their lives very difficult.

Missy -- Honestly, our need for a bigger kitchen is enough that without one we will probably move. We have two young children and our current kitchen is very, very small. If this house is to work for us as our kids get older and bigger, we need a more workable space. I think deep down I know we are going to go ahead, but I hate the thought of impinging on them in any way.

Makemepretty -- Thank you. Interesting thought to not even bring it up beforehand. I'll have to think about that. It's true that there's nothing they can do to stop us, but I thought giving them a heads up would be considerate. Or maybe it's just a way to assuage my own guilt.

Dem, I know it's not your intention to ask permission, but have you thought about what you'll do if they balk or object? You don't think they will, but there's just no way to know. Maybe the stress of dealing w/other neighbors will cause them to behave in a way that you wouldn't expect.

I'm concerned that once you open the discussion, they may assume they have veto power. While it may be your intent to 'inform', it also gives them opportunity to make moves to block you if they so choose, or to express their desire for you not to proceed. If that were to happen, what then? What if they aren't satisfied with your pledge to minimize impact?

I agree with this completely. My husband and I talked about it and we have decided not to inform them ahead of time, at least not with the intent of apologizing in advance for any disruption to their view. For one thing, we really don't know if this is going to impact them at all -- it is a very minor addition in the grand scheme of things and doesn't make our house any higher than it already is. It could be that they are high enough above us that it simply doesn't matter one way or the other. And it almost seems worse to say, Hey, we know this might negatively impact you, but we're going to do it anyway. I'm still not entirely comfortable with the situation, but deep down I do feel this renovation is reasonable. According to city ordinances, our lot could accommodate a 5000 sq ft house; this renovation will only add an additional 200 sq feet to our 2400 sq foot house. In other words, we could build a real monstrosity if we wanted to. Anyway, I know I sound a bit like I'm trying to justify our decision and that is because I struggle with feeling like I'm putting my needs ahead of someone else's, but that's a different discussion entirely.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts. They have been very helpful!

 

[zoebartlett]

I think it's nice that you're considering your neighbors but what if they expressed their dismay about your plans? Would you really change them?

If you're giving them a heads up, that's one thing, but if you're asking them if it's okay that you do your remodel as planned, that's another. I don't think it's necessary to do the first and I definitely wouldn't do the second.

ETA: Oops, I hadn't finished reading when I chimed in.

 

[momhappy]

Unless you have a plan laid out for how you will handle a potential objection, then personally, I wouldn't even open up that can of worms. It's entirely possible that they will object - I certainly would (even though I know that it's within your rights as a homeowner). Sure, the renovation is well within within your "rights" and it's kind of you to want to maintain positive neighborly relationships, but this one is pretty tricky. Even though you wouldn't be going to them beforehand for their approval, it might feel that way to them, which would be pretty hurtful if they object and you move forward anyways.