Home What would you do re: co-worker''s daughter

[EricaR]

I know that the answer should be "don''t do anything!" but I feel so bad for this little girl and I wish I could help her.

Background: My co-worker - lets call her Cindy - has two kids. "Christopher" is 10 and "Amanda" is 8. Cindy went through a messy divorce about 5 years ago during which primary custody was awarded to her ex-husband. Cindy gets the kids every other weekend and one night a week.

Amanda, the 8 year old, is who I''m concerned with. I''ve spent some time with her and she isn''t a normal 8 year old at all. She acts more like she''s 4 in every way, shape and form. Amanda has issues:
1. She poops in her pants every day at school and during swimming lessons
2. She pulls out her hair by the handful
3. She throws several temper tantrums a week at school
4. She bites and kicks other kids
5. She has started PULLING OUT HER TEETH!!! She''s pulled out five so far.

Cindy and her ex-husband have taken Amanda to the doctor who diagnosed her with having ADD and OCD. Cindy agreed to medicate her for the ADD only while in school so they have her on very short acting drugs. What the dad doesn''t know is that Cindy empties the meds out the capsules that are sent to school so Amanda never gets any meds. Cindy feels very strongly that no child should be medicated and while I agree with her for the most part, Amanda has been PULLING OUT HER TEETH! Seriously, pulling out her teeth. The ones she hasn''t pulled out are now loose to the point where she has a hard time eating anything hard.

Cindy''s ex-husband has pushed repeatedly to take Amanda to counceling, etc. Cindy will go along with it, but as soon as someone diagnoses Amanda with OCD and suggests meds Cindy will refuse to allow Amanda to go back to that doctor. The school has strongly suggested that Amanda be pulled out of regular classes (where she struggles to even sit still) and go into special education but Cindy refuses to allow that and has even threatened to sue the school if the push the issue or suggest medication.

Usually I''d just stay far far away from these kinds of things, especially at work, but when I went into work last week I saw Amanda and my heart just broke for her. She''s lost a ton of weight (from not being able to eat that well) and has some bald patches on her head (from pulling out her hair.) Her dad still thinks she is being medicated on a regular basis, but as Cindy has told me several times Amanda is only getting empty capsules. I feel so so sad for Amanda...

 

[JSM]

Oh my goodness, that''s awful.

I''m not one for meddling in someone else''s business, but this poor, poor girl... how heartbreaking!

Is there a way to let her father or the school know about her meds? Cindy probably means well but she is harming her daughter to the point of abuse. I hope those with better knowledge about legal options can chime in. Good luck to you and Amanda.

 

[neatfreak]

Well....ouch. That is a really hard situation to be in. Normally I would say don't meddle...but I am a bit speechless over this. I'll have to think about what I would do...

Do you know the father at all? Also, why did they award custody to him? I assume that if they awarded him custody they must know at least a bit about "Cindy's" true colors, since they almost always award custody to the mother unless there is a real reason not to or the mother doesn't want custody.

If you really want to get into it deeper you could file a report with child protective services. But that opens up a whole new can of worms and if the father is doing a good job, it's just Cindy who is a bit off her rocker, you might not want to open that can just yet.

 

[swingirl]

This is a possible case of child abuse. If a child has been prescribed medication, whether it is insulin, anti-depressants, or ADD meds, it is wrong to mess with the dose without letting the physician know a change has been made. If parents withheld insulin from a diabetic child that would be a clear case of abuse. Why is another medication up for debate? If your co-worker isn’t comfortable with the diagnosis she ought to seek a second opinion.

This child is obviously in distress and has issues that need intervention. As much as you might believe it’s none of your business, when it comes to child abuse and/or neglect, it is everyone’s business because children can’t protect themselves. You can tip off Child Protective Services, the doctor or the school. They will have a legal obligation to pursue it.

I don’t know how anyone could look at a child with bald spots who has lose weight, has missing teeth and is having her medication withheld and think they shouldn’t do something. You are correct in thinking she needs help.

Keep in mind, it's not about which parent is doing a good or bad job. It's about protecting the child. No one knows what is going on with either parent.

 

[diamondfan]

First, my oldest has ocd and NEVER did anything like that. He did get frustrated and needed his rituals to calm him, but they involved flicking a light switch three times or shutting a door twice.

These behaviors sound as if she is very disturbed, she is self mutilating, (trichotilomania is the removing of hair, and the teeth pulling is one I have NEVER even heard of and boy is that scary) She is not able to control body function at an age where it should NOT be an issue (barring bowel issues) and I think she needs to see a psychiatrist. Of course the divorce could have been tough, but I have not heard of many kids reacting THAT severely. She really needs some serious clinical care and who knows what is going on at home to exacerbate things.

 

[mia1181]

This breaks my heart...

You need to tell someone. I''m just wondering if there is more to this story. A woman who has lost custody of her children and is capable of doing something as deceptive of that (and sounds proud of it) may be abusing this child in other ways also.

The little girl does sound emotionally disturbed and while I am not a psychiatrist, it doesn''t sound like ADD, or OCD are the complete explanation either.

If I were you I would call the school and let them know first. I think it would be good if they discovered the capsules were empty and called the father and handled it from there. I would at least try it.

 

[Kaleigh]

I''d report it. That poor little girl needs major help, and she''s not getting it.

 

[miraclesrule]

OMG, this is crazy. Whether or not this child has an actual condition that would respond to medication is debatable, but clearly she is deeply disturbed and has probably been traumatized by the separation of the divorce and the separation from her parents and life as she knew it. She may be acting out in the only way that she knows how.

This is disturbing on so many levels. It is though she is screaming out for attention in the only ways she can think of in order to do so. Good lord, I hope someone gets this child the care she needs and I hope that the parents are driving this little girl crazy. Because her behavior is crazy right now.

And so I pray.....

 

[VRBeauty]

Date: 10/24/2008 12:46:44 AM
Author: Kaleigh
I'd report it. That poor little girl needs major help, and she's not getting it.

DITTO. No matter what her motivations are, your co-worker is endangering her daughter. I'm also concerned about her son and what he's learning from this. I'm afraid both kids are learning that they really can't trust anyone to look out for them.

Very sad.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I would call child protective services and the school right away. This is much more serious than unmedicated ADD and it is only going to get worse with time, especially with a mother who sounds to be a little off herself. If you don''t help this child it is only going to get worse, please help her.

 

[FrekeChild]

Was it a physician that diagnosed her with ADHD and OCD, or a psychiatrist?

Because this goes above and beyond BOTH of those disorders, and actually doesn't sound like OCD at all. And being that I have been diagnosed with ADHD...not seeing much of that either.

This girl needs to see someone else-preferably a child psychologist/psychiatrist. Because this child is disturbed.

ETA: why hasn't one of her teachers said or done anything?!

 

[purrfectpear]

Call Child Protective Services now. Nothing they will do to that poor girl will be worse than the neglect she is experiencing now.

I would say contact the dad, but this is so extreme that I would want unbiased professionals to investigate BOTH homes. The future for this girl is scary. Without help she will either self destruct, or snap and destroy others

I mean seriously, just read what you posted. We aren't talking about a little bed wetting or acting out in class. This is daily pooping, painful mutilation...at the age of 8

 

[vespergirl]

If I were you, Il would report to both the school & her father that the mother is not giving her the meds, only pretending to. I would also call social services. I used to work in family law, and from what I saw, mothers were nearly ALWAYS granted primary custody, usually only barring cases of abandonment and drug addiction. So the fact that your co-worker does not have primary custody may show that her parenting was terrible even before the divorce, and there''s a good reason that the little girl is mostly with the dad.

 

[meresal]

Date: 10/24/2008 3:49:52 AM
Author: FrekeChild
Was it a physician that diagnosed her with ADHD and OCD, or a psychiatrist?

Because this goes above and beyond BOTH of those disorders, and actually doesn't sound like OCD at all. And being that I have been diagnosed with ADHD...not seeing much of that either.

This girl needs to see someone else-preferably a child psychologist/psychiatrist. Because this child is disturbed.

ETA: why hasn't one of her teachers said or done anything?!

Freke: I was thinking the same thing. I'm suprised the school hasn't pulled her from classes yet. Pulling out your own teeth, were they already loose to begin with (or is she making them loose by playing with them)? I'm not a parent, but should you have permanent teeth by 8? Messing with her teeth to the point that they get loose and fall out could be severe ADD, but purposely pulling them out, that's a new one to me.

Since the father has custody... do they still have to have both parents approval to medicate? When I was younger, my parents were required to take the medication to the school nurse, and then I was required to go to the nurse at noon every day to receive it. Why are they trusting an 8 yr old girl to deliver her own medication.

I don't know if I agree with you calling CPS, because there could be things that you aren't getting the whole truth about and being coworkers that could end very badly. Have you tried contacting the school? I think they should be the ones to call CPS. And why doesn't the nurse know that she is taking empty capsules? The dad is with her 75% of the time. Why doesn't he notice or do anything? There is some serious neglect going ALL around here.

 

[dragonfly411]

Pulling out one''s own teeth and hair goes far beyond ADD or OCD. This child seems to have some serious issues. Pooping in pants originally made me think she might be a bit behind, but the self mutilation is scary and disturbing. Please call the father immediately so that he knows that she isn''t getting her medication when with mom, but it sounds to me that mom needs to be removed from the situation so this child can get some help.

 

[Miranda]

Date: 10/24/2008 8:49:37 AM
Author: purrfectpear
Call Child Protective Services now. Nothing they will do to that poor girl will be worse than the neglect she is experiencing now.

I would say contact the dad, but this is so extreme that I would want unbiased professionals to investigate BOTH homes. The future for this girl is scary. Without help she will either self destruct, or snap and destroy others

I mean seriously, just read what you posted. We aren''t talking about a little bed wetting or acting out in class. This is daily pooping, painful mutilation...at the age of 8

I was going to say call the dad and CPS, but, Purrfectpear is right. Who knows what is going on at dad''s house.

And just to clarify, these are things you''ve seen with your own eyes, correct? These are not just stories from the mother? She sounds ''off'' to say the least. I would want to be sure mom is not exaggerating.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

It sounds to me like there is something **seriously** wrong.

First and foremost, call CPS, and share with them the exact same story you shared with us. This "mother" is hurting her child by denying her medication (as a child who had ADD) and even more than that...there is *soemthing* deeper, I suspect...

Secondly, when this "mother" discusses with you what she does with her daughters medicine, I''d either make a point of walking away, or flat out tell her you think she''s doing more harm than good...

But, the last thing you should do is "do nothing". There are times to get involved and there are times to walk away...this is a time to jump in with both feet, this little girl is hurting...she needs help...and even if her mother isn''t capable of providing it, someone needs too.

 

[Haven]

Date: 10/24/2008 3:49:52 AM
Author: FrekeChild
. . .
ETA: why hasn''t one of her teachers said or done anything?!

My guess is that her teachers have done something at this point, there are pretty strict rules regarding what and how to report irregularities in student behavior.
Now, what happens after things are reported is an entirely different situation. Teachers can only do so much.

I agree that this needs to be reported to CPS.

 

[MMMD]

This mother sounds like my best friend. Yes my best friend for 40 years who has a very disturbed eight year old son who she will not help, like Cindy. And best friend''s husband agrees with her so I just cry on sidelines. My DH and I have contacted the various doctors they have seen to give them the correct side of the story but my friends are the same as Cindy. Once meds are prescribed or a diagnosis made, they stop going to the doctor. Needless to say our friendship is hanging by a thread.

One of his doctors contacted child services after my DH and I as well as my friend''s mother gave him background on this family. Child services did nothing after visiting the house.

I think that having divorced parents may help you in this situation. I would call the father and tell him that Cindy has been sending her to school without her meds.

Good luck.

 

[AmberWaves]

This is just so sad to hear. What I want to know is, if Cindy only has the kids for the weekends and the one night, who picks up the meds from the doctor and sends them to school? Shouldn''t she have little contact with the meds due to her small contact with the kids? If the dad has the kids a majority of the time, shouldn''t he give the meds to the school, so the mom can only mess the girl''s meds up those two weekend days when she is given those few pills, instead of being in control of the whole bottle?

And hopefully calling CPS would help. I just feel so bad for those kids, and agree that something has to be done, whether it be telling the father that the meds aren''t being given or contacting someone else who can help.

 

[Upgradable]

This may be a severe case of autism. Is the child verbal? How does she interact with others?

 

[neatfreak]

After thinking about this, I am going to disagree with most of the posters for a moment. This is your coworker. How well do you know her? And how sure are you that this is really happening (re: meds)? Is Cindy telling you? Does she always tell the truth? Or is it possible that she's lying to get attention herself?

I certainly don't doubt that there are problems with this child, but if she's been to doctors and the doctors have diagnosed her...CPS won't be able to do anything about it if the kid is just developmentally delayed or having other psychological issues. They will only be able to do something about abuse and neglect and that needs to be documented VERY well before CPS will actually do anything.

I would talk to the dad first personally before getting CPS involved. It most likely will get back to Cindy that you were the one who called, and CPS won't do anything without substantial proof anyway, it seems like the logical thing would be to go to dad first...

 

[iheartscience]

I would talk to the father and call Child Protective Services as well as the child''s school. I would tell them all that Cindy is not giving this child her meds and I would tell them what the poor girl has been doing to herself.

This is horrible-how can this woman treat her child like this? This is absolutely abusive behavior-by not medicating her child, her child is injuring herself terribly. I would imagine that at age 8 she has permanent teeth and not just baby teeth, right? So this child is pulling out her permanent teeth and her mother is doing nothing to prevent it? That''s just sickening.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 10/24/2008 8:19:25 PM
Author: thing2of2
I would talk to the father and call Child Protective Services as well as the child''s school. I would tell them all that Cindy is not giving this child her meds and I would tell them what the poor girl has been doing to herself.

This is horrible-how can this woman treat her child like this? This is absolutely abusive behavior-by not medicating her child, her child is injuring herself terribly. I would imagine that at age 8 she has permanent teeth and not just baby teeth, right? So this child is pulling out her permanent teeth and her mother is doing nothing to prevent it? That''s just sickening.

Thing, I was wondering that too!

I think something definitely needs to be done to help this poor kid. I would at least contact CPS, and maybe the father too. The mom just isn''t parenting this poor kid.

 

[meresal]

Date: 10/24/2008 9:17:47 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl

Date: 10/24/2008 8:19:25 PM
Author: thing2of2
I would talk to the father and call Child Protective Services as well as the child's school. I would tell them all that Cindy is not giving this child her meds and I would tell them what the poor girl has been doing to herself.

This is horrible-how can this woman treat her child like this? This is absolutely abusive behavior-by not medicating her child, her child is injuring herself terribly. I would imagine that at age 8 she has permanent teeth and not just baby teeth, right? So this child is pulling out her permanent teeth and her mother is doing nothing to prevent it? That's just sickening.

Thing, I was wondering that too!

I think something definitely needs to be done to help this poor kid. I would at least contact CPS, and maybe the father too. The mom just isn't parenting this poor kid.

I called my sister to double check my step-niece's age... she is 8 yrs old and is still loosing her front baby teeth. From talking with my parents, ususally you have 6yr molars and 12 yr molars, but many children do take longer to loose the baby teeth.

Being someone that was diagnosed with ADD over 15 yrs ago... you do things unknowingly to satisfy your need for stimulation. You hate sitting still so you pull at your hair, you mess with your teeth because you don't know what to do with your hands. A very severe case of ADD could cause this girl to be doing harm to her body that she isnt trying to do. This girl is being medicated for a reason... this is neglect. It sounds like maybe the co-worker is overexaggerating thigs a bit. Is she bitter that she didn't get custody? Do you think she could be neglecting her child to get back at her ex? If you feel the need to call someone, I would start by calling the school to let them know you have reason to believe she isn't taking her medication. If they won't talk to you then maybe call the dad, but there is no anonimity in that. Your co-worker will more than likely find out, and it could end you friendship... you could never see this girl again.

I suggest studying the situation a little bit more, before making any calls. Have you tried contacting a family law lawyer to see what else you can do?

 

[purrfectpear]

OK, let''s put aside the med issue for a moment. We''ll even table the discussion of the how''s and why''s an 8 year old might be pulling out her hair and teeth, or why an 8 year old is biting other kids.

Do any one of you actually believe that an 8 year old that poops her own pants every single day (we''re not talking about enuresis now) is just exhibiting symptoms of OCD or ADD?

Come on. I know lots of parents of kids that have been ADD or ADHD diagnosed and not one, not one single kid POOPS his pants in second grade, much less daily. This is an extreme symptom of something being seriously psychologically wrong in this girls life.

As to the coworker knowing who it was that turned her in, in my state you can remain entirely anonymous. CPS will investigate and either find problems or not. Just because this girl is supposedly under a doctor''s care (a revolving door of doctors it seems), does not mean that they will be unwilling to investigate.

I have to wonder what kind of things have happened in her world to cause such out of the norm behavior? She is crying out for attention/intervention in the most obvious way IMO.

 

[diamondfan]

Assuming all of this stuff is happening, I must again reiterate NO MATTER WHAT YOU CHOSE TO DO, this is severely atypcial and abnormal. I know many children with behavioral stuff, ADD, ADHD, etc, and none behave in that extreme of a manner. If this is all truly occuring, she is clearly not okay, crying out for help, and these major red flags should be setting off alarm bells with teachers and others who have daily exposure to her. I feel for her, and she needs an intervention the sooner the better in my view.

 

[disneybride]

I'm a pedi psych nurse and I can tell you just from the symptoms you listed that there's something more going on with that little girl..almost sounds like a post-traumatic stress disorder reaction or abuse. Children tend to regress when they've been in an abusive or traumatizing situation which could explain the encopresis (pooping in her pants). The self-injurous behavior and the increase in aggressive behavior would be enough for her to meet inpatient level of care criteria. If you're really concerned I'd place an anonymous call to DCF/DSS and let them investigate and file a 51A. It doesn't mean that her mother's rights will be terminated however they may insist on her daughter getting inpatient treatment just for stabilization and to get community supports in place for her. It's absolutely cruel to make a child suffer like that when their pain is obviously very real and quite serious from what you describedl. A lot of people put blinders on when it comes to mental health and don't see how detrimental emotional pain is. That little girl needs serious therapy very soon or she will absolutely continue to decompensate. Some children with symptoms you just described to me end up so tormented inside their minds that they try to take their life at a very young age. We have four children under the age of 10 on our unit right now and all of them have PTSD which got so severe they tried to commit suicide or had thoughts of suicide and one child with a strong history of abuse even had thoughts of homicide. If it is within your means please get that little girl help. I'm sure it must be an awkward situation to file on a friend and I know you don't want to make waves but at this point it's about the safety of her child. Please feel free to ask me any questions.

 

[EricaR]

Sorry it took me a bit to respond. I wanted to sit down and try to address all of the issues/concerns that have been brought up.

1. Dad has primary custody because during their custody hearing the marriage counselor Cindy and ex-husband had been seeing testified that Cindy was an "unfit mother" and severely restricted her custody. Technically she is only supposed to get custody one night a week but the dad has also given her every other weekend.
2. Mom empties out the pills and refills them with gelatin. She gets her hands on all of the pills because the insurance coverage is through her so she picks them up every month, brings the appropriate ones to school, etc. No, I don''t know 100% for sure that she does this, but she told me she does and I don''t know why she''d lie? (well, except that she seems to be completely crazy!)
3. I have no idea what brought on the issues with Amanda. After watching her playing (I''ve seen her around the office quite a few Saturdays and she always comes to play at my desk because I print out coloring book pages from the computer and let her color) she just seems "not quite right." My guess is that she would have issues no matter how perfect her childhood, but the stress of the divorce and/or Cindy''s craziness really adds to it.
4. The school has attempted to intervene but they can''t move a child to special education without the approval of both parents and Cindy refuses to approve. She has threatened to sue the school if they bring up medication or special ed again. I''m not sure if the school has called CPS.
5. I''m not sure if the teeth are baby teeth or adult teeth. I did ask if the teeth were already loose and Cindy said no. She asked Amanda why she had pulled them out and Amanda''s answer was "because."

I had a long talk with Cindy today she she admitted to me that she used to be a cutter and that she sees many of the same traits in Amanda. I asked why she wouldn''t do whatever it takes to change the outcome and she said that there wasn''t anything she could do. Ummm, excuse me?! Your kid is 8! There is still plenty you can do. Cindy''s comment was that she had had an f''ed up childhood and she ended up cutting, and now Amanda is going through the same thing. I asked why she would allow Amanda to go through the pain she had gone through and Cindy didn''t really have an answer.

I don''t know the ex-husband at all, but putting together the few things I do know about him I was able to track down his work contact information. I need to think on this for a few days before I decide how to proceed. I know that the dad has tried to take Amanda in for various medical treatments but Cindy either refuses to allow her to see certain doctors or yanks them out as soon as the doctor/therapist suggests medication...

I''m a person that has been diagnosed with ADD and depression, and even though meds aren''t always the answer I sort of wonder how different things would have been had I been properly diagnosed and treated at the time. My childhood was miserable and I really don''t want that for this sweet little girl.

 

[VRBeauty]

Erica:

I''m sending you support by the best means I know. I hope that your gut and insights kick in to give you certainty about the right way to proceed.

I suspect that even the informal change in the custody order could be contributing to this young girl''s distress. A good friend of mine a custody arrangement where he had primary custody of his two kids and his ex had them every other weekend. When the kids were in pre-school, they always showed signs of distress such potty training "accidents" at school when they returned from weekends with their mother. In this case, I''m sure the kids understand on a very deep level that their mother is more than a little "off," so they could easily get stressed anticipating their stays with the mother in addition to reacting after the visits.