what is reasonable premium for in person B&M service?

[johngalt2004]

Hi I am new to this board and I hope this is ok to post.

I met a wholesaler/broker who told me he sells to me for the same price he sells to stores. Pulls out the RAP sheet and says he takes a 12% premium. He does not try to do a hustle on me with the rap sheet though... I just saw him referencing it. Anyway I sort of let my guard down and assumed I was getting best price anywhere on that basis (same price to me as to stores)... but it turns out not necessarily.

I compared his 1.13 zero cut H "strong SI1" (it is very clean in the loop on a good day maybe VS2) to Pricescope - mainly the Whiteflash vendor. It is a GIA but he clearly knows his parameters and said it is a zero. I don''t have them to share but for the sake of my post lets assume it is a real zero.

He wants $6400 back. Also have sales tax of course but that is not his fault.

Whiteflash with pricescope discount is like $5600 or so. On their site direct it is about $5880

This is where I get stuck. The guy spent a 3 hour session looking at diamonds with me. He has to feed his family too and can''t work for free right? Got to look at it in person and see for myself it is borderline VS2. So I don''t mind paying a "little" more for personal touch. I also don''t mind paying sales tax very much - somebody has got to fix the roads and put cops on the street right?

My question is, should I press him to match Whiteflash? Seems kind of unreasonable. What IS reasonable? Is $800 reasonable?

I would kind of like to support my local guy and the guy who invested his time with me... but not to the point of throwing money away.


Also he persuaded me toward taking a 1.01 "1 cut" EGL-Isreal with a very clean SI2, H for $4550 - his take was sort of that it was not $2K less diamond than the other.... but I am inclined to avoid both the 1 cut and the EGL stigma and insist only on a bonafide zero... but maybe that is for another post. If a good gemologist that you trust recommends and EGL stone can it be a great value? He did not appear to be pricing it down on the basis of the cert, he appeared only to be pricing on the basis of the cut in his determination (says IDEAL on the cert but he says it is a 1, not a zero - has a 58 table and is a half percent off on one other measure, if I recall correctly the one that should be 43.5 is 44). This part of the post is kind of moot becasue I have pretty much decided that if I''m goign to overpay I want to overpay for a zero with a good cert instead of a one with a bad cert.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Welcome to the forum, John.

I will once again note that there is no such thing as "wholesale to the public." The
Jewelers Vigilance Committee (JVC) has prepared a consumer document about this very topic
because it is so confusing and misleading. http://www.jvclegal.org/index.php?categoryid=191

Jeff Averbook, G.G. Appraiser

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[risingsun]

There will be plenty of folks checking in, but let me start...Your GIA stone is not a 0 unless AGS says it is. Your jeweler''s opinion is just that--an opinion. AGS evaluates by light performance, as well as other criteria. I think your jeweler spent 3 hours smoozing you. It''s his job to sell his diamonds. It''s not your job to buy them. Then he tries to push a questionable EGL in your general direction

You need to do your research and get the best possible stone that meets your criteria. It sounds as if he''s not being entirely upfront about the quality of his diamonds.

 

[johngalt2004]

Thank you all for the answers. If I want to take a high road, is there one short of asking for my money back and calling it a day? Should I ask him to match my best internet price or else give me my money back and let me go get it on the internet? If I get a GIA excellent that measures to zero proportions 1.13, very clean SI1, H for $6400 back - is that a reasonable deal? Is it a reasonable deal at $6000 back? Or would you just get your money back and go internet shopping (which has its perils too)?

 

[risingsun]

First, we would need to see the depth%, table%, crown angle and pavillion angle to estimate light return. Please remember, an AGS 0 is based upon more than cut proportions. It is measured to evaluate light performance. It is highly unlikely that your local jeweler can provide you with that information. What do your eyes tell you about this diamond? Have you looked at AGS 0 diamonds in order to have a basis to make a comparison? GIA excellent and AGS 0 are not the same grade, based upon proportion only. You need to decide what your own criteria are, as I mentioned before. If you are satisfied with the stone, you can ask about having him match the internet price. If you don't like the stone, return it. As for the price diffential, the lower price for WF is the Pricescope discount for a wire discount. You only need to ask for it. It really depends upon how pleased you are with the stone you have, based on what it is

 

[denverappraiser]

John,

Welcome.

Describing something as ‘zero proportions’ is not something that would come from someone who understands the AGS grading system. It’s not based on proportions and hasn’t been since 2005. At the very least he’s out of date. That said, there is nothing wrong with pointing out a competitive advertisement and observing that someone else is willing to sell what appears to be a comparable stone available elsewhere for 12% less money. He’s undermining his own dealer network if it’s really true that he’s selling to consumers for the same prices that he sells to them so it’s not like this fellow is on the moral high ground anyway and the fact that he’ll spend 3 hours doing it makes him the veritable definition of a retailer. Whiteflash isn’t working for free either and they too have families to feed, as do his supposed dealer customers that he’s hanging out to dry here. Your dealer’s cost is going to be less than what WF is charging so he could make a profit even by matching the prices but this may not be sufficient to meet his expenses although most of the wholesaler/broker type retailers run pretty lean operations in terms of employees and showroom space. Maybe baby food is cheaper in Texas.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/8/2007 3:18:33 PM
Author: johngalt2004
Thank you all for the answers. If I want to take a high road, is there one short of asking for my money back and calling it a day? Should I ask him to match my best internet price or else give me my money back and let me go get it on the internet? If I get a GIA excellent that measures to zero proportions 1.13, very clean SI1, H for $6400 back - is that a reasonable deal? Is it a reasonable deal at $6000 back? Or would you just get your money back and go internet shopping (which has its perils too)?

Not if you shop with one of the highly regarded vendors on here.

Not trying to talk you out of shopping locally, I tried that, but for me, it was MUCH more perilous than shopping online.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

There are only a few 1.13H SI1 stones listed on Pricescope. Itt is very likely his stone is one of them - so get a bit more detail and you will see what the real wholesale price is (with the Pscope vendors aroundabout 10% MU).

You can probably find HIS actual stone.

Then you might see that his "wholesale" is really "retail".

 

[johngalt2004]

Just to stick up for the guy a little, I did ask him to help me to an optimum "price/value" point and he sniffed at the notion that the stone I bought was a true ideal. He did say a 1 is not a 0.... pointedly. I don''t think he was really cynically trying to get me to by the higher margin EGL necessarily... I don''t think that was the deal. I think he figured I would have worse remorse spending more than my "hope" budget of $5K than I would settling for less than my "hope" cut of an ags zero. I went to get an AGS 0 si1 H for $5K and that is evidently not really in the cards... at least not in his inventory. I don''t think I''m dealing with a crook who won''t do the right thing.

I wish I had the EGL stone specs (he has it - was going to mount it for me and hand it over Tuesday) but I know the table was of by .5 (5 and one other dimension was off by .5 (I think pavilion depth was 44%). So I think he conscientiously directed me to an outstanding cut that was just shy of "real ideal". He appeared discriminating about what he called ideal.

It is the weekend too bad but I think he will give me my money back but I don''t think he will budge on the 1.13 stone. I called him and left a message saying "don''t mount that EGL stone I don''t want it". Some of this is on me because I became fatigued and wanted to complete the deal, and let myself "settle" for the very good cut (which he called a 1, I guess inappropriately).

So I guess I have to figure out whether I am prepared to pay $6400 for his 1.13, which was very impressive and beautiful and to me nearly perfect under the loupe.... or if I have to go to the mat and insist on my money back. Like I said I can swallow a little markup over pricescope to deal with my local guy... trying to figure the balance between a tense demand for my money back and paying a little too much.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have no problem with any diamond you buy or anyone you buy it from.

I just squirm when people say wholesale direct to you.
You can get the details of both those stones and find them here. You did not understand me perhaps? The identical stone - not a similar one.

 

[risingsun]

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-78257.htm

This link will take you to an ideal graded diamond. The zeros are in the grading report because AGS evaluated the light performance, as well as other factors. If you want a 0 graded stone, you need to go AGS, otherwise take the GIA Excellent and understand that it can't be a 0. You can't get that 0 from a GIA diamond. The term "ideal" is thrown around, but actually has a very specific meaning in regard to grading diamonds

 

[johngalt2004]

I gave him the cert number of an AGS 000 from pricescope that is really good and $5600 through pricescope. There are actually 4 different ones, but I just gave him the one number. I am hoping he will step up and match the quality of the deal I can get here.

If not I am hoping that I will not have trouble getting my money back if it comes to that. I doubt it. I am hoping he will get me an AGS 000 for the right price. I''m not of a mind to settle for less than that.

I''m grateful for all the feedback including the suggestion to find his stone on here (but I do not have the measurements handy to pin it down at this time - not till Monday probably, by which time it may be moot if he finds me the diamond I want).

What happens when I decide I want to buy something from Pricescope, but it is in my dealer''s safe? how does that work... and vice versa - if I tell him I want a diamond from some other vendor''s stock... can he go snag it for me easily?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

If you can get the dimensions and data on either or both diamonds you can probably find them here, or give it to us if you dont know how. It seems your contact is a broker, not an actual stockist. If he does not own the stones then you have the power - not him.

 

[oldminer]

A store owner is entitiled to enough profit to keep his store in operation and payt his employees a living. The major problems today are that internet profit levels and the lack of out of sate sales tax make an even competition for a store owner pretty much impossible. The other thing working against many store owners is their apparent desire not to compete based on up to date thinking, but reliance upon dated selling models, dated information and unfortunetely, upon missrepresentation in some instances. These situations combine to put the average store owner at a disadvantage.

Adding value, a value you notice and are willing to pay extra for, is their challenge. Some are succeeding very well with it, but many are just biding their time until retirement. You should shop anywhere you want and rely upon the good advice that is available. Diamonds are NOT all about cost, quality and money. They are beautiful and represent much more to the person you give a gift to. I know this does not directly answer all the questions, but it gives some basis to know that how you buy is a lot less important than making a correct selection in the overall.

 

[denverappraiser]

I’m a pretty big fan of dealers who add value. A diamond purchase is worth more when it comes from the right store for the same reason that a hot dog is worth more when you buy it at the ballpark. Their added value comes in several ways and the offer will be different for each store. Not every shopper wants the same sorts of things and not everyone is willing to pay the same sorts of premiums to get the service they want. The broker type dealers do have their place as something of a compromise between the full service retailers and the rock-bottom priced Internet houses but you’ve only asked half of the question. As with all shopping questions, ‘What does it cost?’ must be paired with ‘What do you get?’ in order to make a sensible decision of whether it’s a good value for you.

So what do different dealers offer, or at least what might they offer? Here’s some thoughts in no particular order:

Convenient displays.
One-on-one education.
More or better information
A fun shopping experience
Easy comparison between several stones, mountings and combinations.
Community support and involvement.
Easy recourse if you have a problem.
Fast delivery.
Romancing the stone.
One stop shopping for the diamond, the ring, the assembly services, the paperwork and the taxes.
Warranties
Trade up and return programs
Financing
Status associated with shopping at certain stores
Access to particular brands
Easy to evaluate trustworthiness

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[johngalt2004]

"If you can get the dimensions and data on either or both diamonds you can probably find them here, or give it to us if you dont know how. It seems your contact is a broker, not an actual stockist. If he does not own the stones then you have the power - not him."

Unfortunately, and I feel like an idiot for this.... he has my cash so I feel very much at his mercy. If I had any power I don''t feel like I have it now.

I spoke to him Saturday and he expressed surprise over the EGL USA vs Europe issue. He understands and accepts that I don''t want that stone. He took down the cert number of the stone I do want... and I guess the implication is that he will get me the equivalent stone for an equivalent price. But frankly I''m scared and trying to handle the whole thing with kid gloves. Not sleeping too great.

The receipt has language like "you can''t change your mind due to personal relationships" and that I "agree to pay regardless of whether I have taken posession of said merchandise"... so I am concerned that he may have my $5K for keeps. He has not said "do you want the money back or do you want me to get a stone like that (or that stone)?" I really wanted to hear that from him but I did not.

But there is a great chance that he will just say "shucks I have to do a skinnier deal than I wanted" but will do it and give me the zero I set out to get in the first place equalling the internet price I found. It is too early to get contentious with him I think or talk about recourses.... but do I have any? Can he keep my $5K in this scenario? I''m in California if that affects my rights any. I think the whole first deal should be void and off the table over the USA/Europe issue and we should be working from square one... but he has my cash.