What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the baby?

[LaraOnline]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

What galls me the most about laws involving birth control and abortion is that MEN who haven't the faintest clue are the ones trying to make these laws regarding women's bodies and women's choices.

Only a woman would be asked or even legally forced into giving over our bodies and lives in service for twenty years or so. It's like a form of conscription for gals! Our mummy complexes run deep, it seems.

I *do* have some considerations regarding abortion, in that abortion seems in many ways a sad and half-assed point for a girl to come to. But that response of mine is caught up in a whole bunch of other stuff to do with sex. In my twenties it seemed I knew lots of women who were perhaps emotionally exploited. Of course, women aren't all victimised angels, of course, but very very many seem to have ' more fluid ego boundaries' (to quote the other thread).

It seems to me that in my twenties, there was almost a 'don't ask don't tell' policy amongst many young men, where they wouldn't offer more than a very basic minimum, a hollow kind of aping of commitment, just to keep the girl hoping, and available. Abortion can kind of play into that dynamic in my view, and it's not hard to see that playing into that drama would bite both parties.

I definitely would like to see greater clarity and higher-level thinking around sexual relationships LOL LOL LOL. I think it's happening actually.

Check out the machismo - woman hating machismo in many ways - in older movies, especially when the pill was unleashed in the 1970s! It's almost written on the men onscreen: FINALLY< FREE SXX... you can smell the testosterone!!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Simple response from a guy who believes that its OK to have sex - as long as you do it responsibly.

1) The woman's health - physical, mental, and financial take priority over a baby. While I (or another man) may have desires - it is the woman's choice.

2) There is no such things as perfect birth control - and people should not be punished for things beyond a reasonable level of control (or even accidents). I know a guy who had a vasectomy and then got someone pregnant a decade later as it self healed.


Have a great day,

Perry

Perry- this is kind of what I was thinking about.
If a guy does get a girl pregnant- even accidentally- he can ( many will say should ) be held responsible financially for the resulting offspring.
We can't hold him emotionally responsible- but a case could be made that guys denying both these responsibilities is a big problem for our society.
Again- I was a single guy and I don't want to be the "pot calling the kettle black". I'm sure I dodged a few bullets in my day- but the point is that there are potential ramifications of casual sex that get overlooked all too often.
Of course it's "Ok to have sex".....but there are very real costs that may occur.
Kenny's initial question is the other side of the coin- I'm sure less frequent- but can also be devastating.

 

[Circe]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I kept having this niggling feeling that this topic reminded me of something ... finally placed it.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/05/17/just-totally-normal-pro-life-things/

The short version is that a guy put up a billboard to harass his ex-girlfriend despite being unsure if she miscarried or aborted. In his case, I can't help but feel that it was more about wanting to control a woman than it was about wanting to have a child, and my concern is that he's not alone in that.

 

[pregcurious]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I think in the end Kenny, if a woman doesn't want to have the child, she has the right. It is her body, and her body that will be put through 9 months of hard living. It is her body that is put at risk and sometimes her life. If that man wants a child, he is more than welcome to go find a woman who wants to have a child with him. A woman should never have to serve as an incubator. Ever.

Childbirth is extremely painful, even with epidurals. About half of women have tearing, and that is no joke. Can you imagine have stitches on your vagina and how painful the recovery is? Even those who do not have tearing have bruising and swelling.

It is also not uncommon for a women to have lasting problems with incontinence. That's why you see ads for incontinence pads; people are now being more open about it. To fix it, you can have a surgery that necessitates a 6 week recovery period, similar to the recovery for a c-section. Women also often have issues with chronic back pain due to weakened and separated abdominal muscles.

Finally, for most women, who do not have money for plastic surgery, the skin on your abdomen is messed up forever. A few women have the genes to avoid stretch marks. For those who get stretch marks, the skin that is stretched never bounces back, even if the marks fade. You end up having a saggy tummy, which seems like not a big deal, until you remember that if the guy doesn't stick around, it's an issue for attracting another guy. A guy should stick with woman after contributing to that.

Childbirth is no joke. What do guys have to go through to have a child? There is no comparison. My husband is a good dad, but he openly admits there's no way he can make up for the discrepancy.

 

[pregcurious]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I think in the end Kenny, if a woman doesn't want to have the child, she has the right. It is her body, and her body that will be put through 9 months of hard living. It is her body that is put at risk and sometimes her life. If that man wants a child, he is more than welcome to go find a woman who wants to have a child with him. A woman should never have to serve as an incubator. Ever.

Have a child is extremely painful, even with an epidural. Childbirth results in about half of women have tearing/lacerations, and that is no joke. Can you imagine have stitches on your vagina and how painful the recovery is? Even those who do not have tearing have bruising and swelling.

It is also not uncommon for a women to have lasting problems with incontinence as a result of pressure from pushing out something the size of a watermelon. That's why you see ads for incontinence pads for women on TV; people are now being more open about it. To fix it, you can have a surgery that necessitates a painful 6 week recovery period, similar to the recovery for a c-section. Women also often have issues with chronic back pain due to weakened and separated abdominal muscles.

Finally, for most women, who do not have money for plastic surgery, the skin on your abdomen is messed up forever. A few women have the genes to avoid stretch marks. For those who get stretch marks, the skin that is stretched never bounces back, even if the marks fade. You end up having a saggy tummy, which seems like not a big deal, until you remember that if the guy doesn't stick around, it's an issue for attracting another guy. A guy should stick with woman after contributing to that.

Childbirth is no joke. What do guys have to go through to have a child? There is no comparison. My husband is a good dad, but he openly admits there's no way he can make up for the discrepancy.

 

[tammy77]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

As someone that's 36 weeks pregnant and has had a rough time for the past 3-4 months, I can completely agree that it should not be within a man's rights to FORCE a woman to stay pregnant if she doesn't want to. My child is very, very much wanted and "hard earned" through fertility treatments and many months of heartache for my husband and I. I can't imagine being forced to continue a pregnancy with someone that I am not in love with/married to in the event of a birth control failure. That said, I also can't imagine putting myself in a position where that's even possible. That's just me though - to each his/her own regarding their bodies and reproductive choices. Just because I myself don't consider aborting an option doesn't mean it isn't the right decision for someone else.

Pregnancy alone can derail a woman's career (I've been out on disability since I was 4.5 months along). Another thread recently posted about mortality rates due to pregnancy shows that it's also not impossible to have injury or even death from childbirth. Also, add in the fact that it's not even possible to prove the father of the baby (is there?) before the woman is past the point where she can morally/safely abort and it's just a huge mess.

I apologize for rambling, ugh.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I think in the end Kenny, if a woman doesn't want to have the child, she has the right. It is her body, and her body that will be put through 9 months of hard living. It is her body that is put at risk and sometimes her life. If that man wants a child, he is more than welcome to go find a woman who wants to have a child with him. A woman should never have to serve as an incubator. Ever.

I find it hard to image how any argument could be presented to dispute this.

But- I will point out that men can put themselves into a very difficult position being on the other side.
That is to say- no woman should ever be forced into becoming a mother. Nor should a pregnant woman be forced to abort
But men, by having taken the risk and having sex, need to accept the fact that they may indeed be put into the position of being a father- even if they don't want to.
It's clearly an issue nowadays ( going into geezer mode again) because I have seen the effects of broken families all too often.
Speaking as a divorced man, I have experienced them first hand.
Point is, sex can have consequences that people overlook for many good reasons- and other reasons....a case could be made that this is the root of the problem.
Of course I'm not suggesting I know the answer- just pointing out the problem for discussions sake.

To all the expectant moms out there- congrats- and best wishes for a smooth pregnancy and easy delivery.

 

[LaraOnline]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Point is, sex can have consequences that people overlook for many good reasons- and other reasons....a case could be made that this is the root of the problem.
Of course I'm not suggesting I know the answer- just pointing out the problem for discussions sake.

Totally agree with you. There is so much that is unknown about sexual bonding as well... there is some evidence to suggest that the more partners we have, the less oxytocin we release in sex, and the less bonded we become to our partners. Perhaps this is related to traumatic memories of earlier sexual experience as well. It seems reasonable to suggest this would affect family formation and possibly post-natal depression in women.

There is evidence to suggest that bonding within a regular sexual relationship is designed to peak about nine months into the relationship...just in time for the first baby. Long delays in commitment are probably inherently 'designed to fail', as the modern world messes with the natural sexual response.

Also, there is an interesting study showing that male sexual response travels very similar pathways to the 'urge to violence' within the brain, and that is an important theory as to how sexual violence comes about. Come to think of it, would probably provide interest in the study of alienation of young men in all manner of sexually-related ways...

I wonder if female sexual response is somewhat related to a masochistic response? don't laugh...we do go into relationships often quite light-heartedly, even as we know that it is a process that if left to natural devices would lead to a probability of death within the year...

OMG I think I'm OFF TOPIC lol

 

[dragonfly411]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I think in the end Kenny, if a woman doesn't want to have the child, she has the right. It is her body, and her body that will be put through 9 months of hard living. It is her body that is put at risk and sometimes her life. If that man wants a child, he is more than welcome to go find a woman who wants to have a child with him. A woman should never have to serve as an incubator. Ever.

I find it hard to image how any argument could be presented to dispute this.

But- I will point out that men can put themselves into a very difficult position being on the other side.
That is to say- no woman should ever be forced into becoming a mother. Nor should a pregnant woman be forced to abort
But men, by having taken the risk and having sex, need to accept the fact that they may indeed be put into the position of being a father- even if they don't want to.
It's clearly an issue nowadays ( going into geezer mode again) because I have seen the effects of broken families all too often.
Speaking as a divorced man, I have experienced them first hand.
Point is, sex can have consequences that people overlook for many good reasons- and other reasons....a case could be made that this is the root of the problem.
Of course I'm not suggesting I know the answer- just pointing out the problem for discussions sake.

To all the expectant moms out there- congrats- and best wishes for a smooth pregnancy and easy delivery.

You make very good points. I think that this ends up being a problem for men, especially if they are not in committed relationships, but they end up with a resulting pregnancy from a relationship. I do think that in any case, whether father or mother keeps a child, that the other person should have some financial responsibility to the child. But, I do believe that a man should have a choice to not be any further involved IF he has no desire for a committed relationship with the woman, and feels no pull towards the child. The woman is just as responsible as he is for birth control, so if they both fail then they both are at fault and the man shouldn't be nagged into being a "father" if he has made it clear that he doesn't want to have an extensive relationship. That being said, if he DOES then he should be given that option as well. Just like he could go find a woman who wants to be a mother for his child, a woman can find someone who will want to be a father to her child, both already conceived and not conceived. If the biological father has no desire from the beginning to be involved, she is not without options for a father or "dad" as I'll refer to it in this sentence.

At the end of the day tough I'll stand by my first post with regards to the question asked, and thankfully, many seem to agree.

 

[erinl]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Dragon:

when you say the man should be able to have the choice to completely disengage from the child's life, do you mean financially as well?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

It's true that men are responsible for so many bad things- after all, it's hard to imagine a woman raping a man ( although it probably has happened)
But what is often overlooked is that men, in our society, can also be victimized by women- especially when it comes to shared children.

Unfortunately, if some women are very angry at the father of their children, they seem to find a great way to get back at the man- involving the kids.
Courts are less likely to give custody to dads- although this is certainly changing.
But going back to Kenny's original question- shared children are an area where women can use tactics to have a strong advantage over a man- especially if he's a man that loves children.
Monetarily is little controversy- I think everyone will agree that a man needs to take care of his offspring from a financial standpoint- but there's really no "emotional protection" for men in these circumstances.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

[quote="Rockdiamond|
If a guy does get a girl pregnant- even accidentally- he can ( many will say should ) be held responsible financially for the resulting offspring.
We can't hold him emotionally responsible- but a case could be made that guys denying both these responsibilities is a big problem for our society.[/quote]



I'd agree 101%

 

[dragonfly411]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Dragon:

when you say the man should be able to have the choice to completely disengage from the child's life, do you mean financially as well?

Erin- I said in my post, both parents should be financially obligated.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

[quote="Rockdiamond|
If a guy does get a girl pregnant- even accidentally- he can ( many will say should ) be held responsible financially for the resulting offspring.
We can't hold him emotionally responsible- but a case could be made that guys denying both these responsibilities is a big problem for our society.

I'd agree 101% [/quote]

I'll need to frame this DF- there's a first time for everything

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

It's true that men are responsible for so many bad things- after all, it's hard to imagine a woman raping a man ( although it probably has happened)

It's happened. It happens A LOT more than you'd think. It doesn't get reported. Tell me, what guy do you know wants to go to the police station and say, "Officers, I was raped!"

It's a huge social stigma. The police would probably chuckle to his face and say something stupid like, "Yeah buddy, so was I...so was I."

And then, how do you prove it?

Guys are too macho. A man being raped goes against all social norms we currently have in place. So it goes completely unreported.