What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the baby?

[katharath]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

AGBF-

To second that, I had an extremely similar experience with pre-e. A healthy pregnancy right up until week 40; extremely high BP; complications that resulted in an emergency delivery, a week long hospital stay for me (they sent me home at 5 days but I had to go back in a few days later for a few more nights!); a NICU stay of 5 days for my son even though he was a very healthy 8.5 lber (he was in there due to exposure to the meds in utero that they gave me for the pre-e). I also had an unusual complication during delivery that occurs about 1% of the time in the U.S., which meant one corrective surgery a few months after delivery and a lifetime of complications that I deal with on a daily basis. My BP didn't go back "to normal" for about 8 months, either, and it's still permanently a bit higher than it was.

With all that - I still chose to have another one, lol. But it was MY CHOICE. (And while I had a similar thing happen with pre-e at the end, this time the docs were ready with a csection and everything went joyously smoothly, it was a wonderful delivery and I was home 36 hrs afterwards, my choice as everything looked so good). Pregnancy and delivery is no joke! It is a very serious thing. Ultimately when all is said and done, it's not a choice that anyone should make save the woman doing it.

 

[ericad]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I don't approach this from a moral standpoint, but sex has its inherent risks--STDS, pregnancy etc. If one is not willing to accept those risks, then one shouldn't be having sex with that person.

Thank goodness for "alone time" and the industry that goes with it.

Based on this logic, some people wouldn't have sex with a partner until they're 40, lol. Straight people who don't want children would never have sex in their entire lives. Not really a realistic expectation for any mammal, methinks.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I heard a very interesting "frame" to the entire subject....
The point was made that what we know as "casual sex" has a lot of implications that seem to have been buried.
As a child of the '70's, I can't believe I'm saying this- I feel "old fashioned....but maybe a big part of the problem is that people forget that it's not really a casual act....even if neither partner has an emotional tie at that moment.

 

[ericad]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

So people who don't want to have babies should abstain from having sex forever? What about a married or committed couple using contraception who don't want to carry a pregnancy to term (for whatever reason, which is no one's business but theirs) when that contraception fails? It's not only those who engage in casual sex that have unwanted pregnancies, even if people (not you specifically) want to demonize that behavior.

This is where we get into that sticky territory of judgment - "I agree with the morality of this person's behavior, but condemn that person's behavior based on my individual moral code, which is different from the unique moral code of that dude over there..."

Which single individual gets to decide the moral code that every other person must follow?

 

[erinl]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I heard a very interesting "frame" to the entire subject....
The point was made that what we know as "casual sex" has a lot of implications that seem to have been buried.
As a child of the '70's, I can't believe I'm saying this- I feel "old fashioned....but maybe a big part of the problem is that people forget that it's not really a casual act....even if neither partner has an emotional tie at that moment.

Thank you-- you spoke much more clearly than I did in my post.

I am sorry, but this may not seem "fair" based on differing levels of power between the sexes should a pregnancy take place and the two parties have different feelings on how to proceed.

I feel very strongly that no one has control over a woman's body but the woman herself. Therefore, should the woman become pregnant and the male partner wants her to terminate the pregnancy and she doesn't, or he doesn't want to terminate and she does want to terminate, that is the set of rules each partner tacitly agrees to when they engage in sex. No one is forcing the man to have sex with a woman that he cannot imagine having a child with, no one is forcing him to have sex with a woman who is pro choice while he isn't, no one is forcing him to have sex with someone who isn't ready to have children while he is.

Every man has the choice to use a barrier method while having sex, and if he is not ready to have a child in the slightest maybe he should only have sex with woman who feel the same way and uses an additional method of protection. If he never ever wants to have children, then he can go out and have a vasectomy and take away the pregnancy risk. The risk of disease still remain.

If this is all too much for someone, then yes, maybe they shouldn't have penetrative intercourse.

Maybe this all makes me seem terribly old fashioned. I am pro choice, but doubt I could have had an abortion should I have gotten pregnant. Knowing that, I only engaged in sexual relationships with partners that I loved and could imagine having a child with. All the while being as protected from pregnancy and stds as I could. But I still faced and accepted the risk. I was madly in love with my high school boyfriend but did not have penetrative sex as I knew i was in no way ready to be a parent and it would be a huge disaster for both of us.

Sex is fabulous and feels great, but it almost always carries serious implications!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

ETA +1 erinl

All excellent points Erica- and as I said, I'm a child of the '70's- it was basically a free for all.
Again going into "Old fashioned geezer mode"- but maybe it's even more free-wheeling today.

Where I got this idea was a discussion hosted on NPR where they had people of diametrically opposing viewpoints discussing this subject in an attempt to see if people could actually understand the other side's views on this very polarizing subject.
It was a Priest who brought up the point that maybe the root of the entire discussion could be shifted to a more responsible outlook in sex in general. Not saying I totally agree- but it did get me thinking.

I really have to commend Ella- and PS in general- because this type of discussion on the internet all too frequently turns very ugly.
I don't know if it's possible to really change anyone's mind about such issues- but a more civil discourse is more likely to allow people to at least glimpse into why people may feel differently.

 

[erinl]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Erica-- I just saw your last post. In the context of the married couple and accidental pregnancies in general, what I am saying is that the risk is pregnancy--with a choice needing to be made-- termination, carrying it and keeping it, or adoption. But when one has sex a choice is being made to take on that risk and whatever the consequences will be. And all three choices possess their own particular consequences.

 

[ericad]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I misunderstood what you were saying, so my earlier response to your response was in the wrong context. Sorry about that!

 

[packrat]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Which single individual gets to decide the moral code that every other person must follow?

Me. Totally me.

 

[ruby59]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I guess I'm standing here alone when I say I think the woman should carry the baby to term given that it's a low risk pregnancy.

This decision would most likely be made during the first trimester. How can she know if her pregnancy will be low risk that early on? Complications often develop later, or during delivery.

Do you think it's ok for someone else to make decisions regarding one's body, without their consent? I know that you're saying that the woman should consent because, in your opinion, it's the right thing to do. But do you feel that a woman should be forced, by a judge for example, to incubate a child against her will? This is the core issue. What can a man legally do (or should he be legally allowed to do) to compel a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?

Been there. My second prgnancy was low risk until it was not. In the 6th month I developed preeclampsia(?) and gestational diabetes. I was told about the potential risks of getting pregnant again. I knew my husband wanted more children. Luckily, so did I, so I took a chance. Took all the precautions, but it happened again. Thankfully, I have 3 healthy children. But 10 years later I was diagnosed with diabetes, which the doctor told me was connected to my pregnancies. It was my choice and I would not have changed it for the world. But should a man be able to force you into a prgnancy that could protentially alter your life?

 

[AGBF]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

AGBF-

To second that, I had an extremely similar experience with pre-e. A healthy pregnancy right up until week 40; extremely high BP; complications that resulted in an emergency delivery, a week long hospital stay for me (they sent me home at 5 days but I had to go back in a few days later for a few more nights!); a NICU stay of 5 days for my son even though he was a very healthy 8.5 lber (he was in there due to exposure to the meds in utero that they gave me for the pre-e). I also had an unusual complication during delivery that occurs about 1% of the time in the U.S., which meant one corrective surgery a few months after delivery and a lifetime of complications that I deal with on a daily basis. My BP didn't go back "to normal" for about 8 months, either, and it's still permanently a bit higher than it was.

With all that - I still chose to have another one, lol. But it was MY CHOICE. (And while I had a similar thing happen with pre-e at the end, this time the docs were ready with a csection and everything went joyously smoothly, it was a wonderful delivery and I was home 36 hrs afterwards, my choice as everything looked so good). Pregnancy and delivery is no joke! It is a very serious thing. Ultimately when all is said and done, it's not a choice that anyone should make save the woman doing it.

Congratulations on making it through your difficult deliveries alive and with healthy children!!!

Big hugs,
(((katharath)))
Deb

 

[perry]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Simple response from a guy who believes that its OK to have sex - as long as you do it responsibly.

1) The woman's health - physical, mental, and financial take priority over a baby. While I (or another man) may have desires - it is the woman's choice.

2) There is no such things as perfect birth control - and people should not be punished for things beyond a reasonable level of control (or even accidents). I know a guy who had a vasectomy and then got someone pregnant a decade later as it self healed.


Have a great day,

Perry

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Which single individual gets to decide the moral code that every other person must follow?

Me. Totally me.

Perry, I knew a couple who had two children, father had a vasectomy, along came the third baby, mother had a tubal, and along came the fourth! In the end he had a re-do and she had her tubes removed.

 

[sonnyjane]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

2) There is no such things as perfect birth control - and people should not be punished for things beyond a reasonable level of control (or even accidents).

Indeed.

To be serious, however, I am in one of those marriages where we are committed, responsible, and love each other, but have absolutely no desire to have children. I take precautions by using birth control, but I will absolutely not abstain from sex for my LIFETIME (well, I guess just 60 years or so until I'm no longer fertile) because there is a chance of my birth control failing. I know what I'll do in that situation. It might not be what others would do, but... "people vary"

 

[katharath]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

AGBF-

To second that, I had an extremely similar experience with pre-e. A healthy pregnancy right up until week 40; extremely high BP; complications that resulted in an emergency delivery, a week long hospital stay for me (they sent me home at 5 days but I had to go back in a few days later for a few more nights!); a NICU stay of 5 days for my son even though he was a very healthy 8.5 lber (he was in there due to exposure to the meds in utero that they gave me for the pre-e). I also had an unusual complication during delivery that occurs about 1% of the time in the U.S., which meant one corrective surgery a few months after delivery and a lifetime of complications that I deal with on a daily basis. My BP didn't go back "to normal" for about 8 months, either, and it's still permanently a bit higher than it was.

With all that - I still chose to have another one, lol. But it was MY CHOICE. (And while I had a similar thing happen with pre-e at the end, this time the docs were ready with a csection and everything went joyously smoothly, it was a wonderful delivery and I was home 36 hrs afterwards, my choice as everything looked so good). Pregnancy and delivery is no joke! It is a very serious thing. Ultimately when all is said and done, it's not a choice that anyone should make save the woman doing it.

Congratulations on making it through your difficult deliveries alive and with healthy children!!!

Big hugs,
(((katharath)))
Deb

Deb, thank you for the kind words . It was well worth it, and my husband and I love our boys so much, but it's definitely something women should try to be well informed about before just jumping into. At least, that's the advice I would want my daughters to hear, if I had them. (I don't expect to have any daughters - I am not planning any more children and my husband is fully on board with that, lol).

 

[AGBF]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

AGBF-

To second that, I had an extremely similar experience with pre-e. A healthy pregnancy right up until week 40; extremely high BP; complications that resulted in an emergency delivery, a week long hospital stay for me (they sent me home at 5 days but I had to go back in a few days later for a few more nights!); a NICU stay of 5 days for my son even though he was a very healthy 8.5 lber (he was in there due to exposure to the meds in utero that they gave me for the pre-e). I also had an unusual complication during delivery that occurs about 1% of the time in the U.S., which meant one corrective surgery a few months after delivery and a lifetime of complications that I deal with on a daily basis. My BP didn't go back "to normal" for about 8 months, either, and it's still permanently a bit higher than it was.

With all that - I still chose to have another one, lol. But it was MY CHOICE. (And while I had a similar thing happen with pre-e at the end, this time the docs were ready with a csection and everything went joyously smoothly, it was a wonderful delivery and I was home 36 hrs afterwards, my choice as everything looked so good). Pregnancy and delivery is no joke! It is a very serious thing. Ultimately when all is said and done, it's not a choice that anyone should make save the woman doing it.

Congratulations on making it through your difficult deliveries alive and with healthy children!!!

Big hugs,
(((katharath)))

Deb, thank you for the kind words . It was well worth it, and my husband and I love our boys so much, but it's definitely something women should try to be well informed about before just jumping into. At least, that's the advice I would want my daughters to hear, if I had them. (I don't expect to have any daughters - I am not planning any more children and my husband is fully on board with that, lol).

You brought back an old memory for me when you posted this, katharath. I always feared pregnancy and childbirth, which may be one reason I postponed it and faced infertility in my 30's. It is definitely one reason that the first month I attempted to conceive that I bled for 30 days straight. (I will not go into more information of that nature in this thread.)

The memory-the thing I had forgotten until now-is that my mother's best childhood friend died in childbirth, or very shortly afterwards, of kidney failure. Apparently there had been some sort of warning...who knows when. Apparently she wanted a baby. She was married years before my mother was. I remember always having the statue on her grave at the cemetery in Connecticut pointed out to me. It was a beautiful angel and it made a huge impression on a little girl. I was always afraid I was going to die having a baby.

Deb

 

[katharath]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Deb - wow, that would be something that could be very impressionable on a young girl! I can understand how it would shape your feelings on the subject.

I think I was the opposite of you - always heard from all of my family members that one day I would grow up and get married and have children, etc...so I think I grew up with the impression that it was just what women did, and that it was something difficult, but "not really anything to be afraid of", if that makes sense. Having children was presented to me as natural, which I suppose it is; expected, which I realized as I grew up that it was NOT; and also as something that's difficult, but not dangerous. And that's flat out not true either. I was very surprised when my mother (who is a very educated woman with multiple degrees, masters and bachelors) still seemed to idealize it so much to me. My mother was actually pretty progressive for a Southern woman born in the '50s; but she still glossed over how downright dangerous pregnancy and childbirth can be.

Sorry if I've gone off on a tangent here...

 

[Imdanny]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I think in the end Kenny, if a woman doesn't want to have the child, she has the right. It is her body, and her body that will be put through 9 months of hard living. It is her body that is put at risk and sometimes her life. If that man wants a child, he is more than welcome to go find a woman who wants to have a child with him. A woman should never have to serve as an incubator. Ever.

x1000

 

[AGBF]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I think I was the opposite of you - always heard from all of my family members that one day I would grow up and get married and have children, etc...so I think I grew up with the impression that it was just what women did, and that it was something difficult, but "not really anything to be afraid of", if that makes sense. Having children was presented to me as natural, which I suppose it is; expected, which I realized as I grew up that it was NOT; and also as something that's difficult, but not dangerous. And that's flat out not true either. I was very surprised when my mother (who is a very educated woman with multiple degrees, masters and bachelors) still seemed to idealize it so much to me. My mother was actually pretty progressive for a Southern woman born in the '50s; but she still glossed over how downright dangerous pregnancy and childbirth can be.

Sorry if I've gone off on a tangent here...

I don't think you went off on a tangent at all! I am glad that this thread went into "uncharted territory", i.e. that it didn't remain within predictable lines with people yelling simple slogans back and forth at each other. Instead people seem to be sharing real stories from their lives.

I am your mother's age. I was a young girl in the 1950's, although I grew up a Yankee while she grew up in the South.

My mother, however, was born in 1918. She had me at what was considered a very old age in her day: 33. That was due to a combination of World War II and other complications interfering in her marriage. (She married right before Pearl Harbor and then my father was sent to Europe during the war.) Her best friend had her baby and died sometime before World War II if I am not mistaken. Medicine was probably not what it is now, although childbirth and delivery are not without risk even in the First World now as we have been saying. In the era about which my mother spoke to me, death in childbirth was not as infrequent as it is now. I think it was just a risk that women knew they were supposed to take and that they undertook.

When I read about Queen Elizabeth I of England I often read that she didn't want to marry because she didn't want to die in childbirth. Although I have a background in history, my background is not in the Tudor era. I do not know if that is true or myth. I would be interested in finding out if it is true, however.

Deb

 

[TooPatient]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I think I was the opposite of you - always heard from all of my family members that one day I would grow up and get married and have children, etc...so I think I grew up with the impression that it was just what women did, and that it was something difficult, but "not really anything to be afraid of", if that makes sense. Having children was presented to me as natural, which I suppose it is; expected, which I realized as I grew up that it was NOT; and also as something that's difficult, but not dangerous. And that's flat out not true either. I was very surprised when my mother (who is a very educated woman with multiple degrees, masters and bachelors) still seemed to idealize it so much to me. My mother was actually pretty progressive for a Southern woman born in the '50s; but she still glossed over how downright dangerous pregnancy and childbirth can be.

Sorry if I've gone off on a tangent here...

I don't think you went off on a tangent at all! I am glad that this thread went into "uncharted territory", i.e. that it didn't remain within predictable lines with people yelling simple slogans back and forth at each other. Instead people seem to be sharing real stories from their lives.

I am your mother's age. I was a young girl in the 1950's, although I grew up a Yankee while she grew up in the South.

My mother, however, was born in 1918. She had me at what was considered a very old age in her day: 33. That was due to a combination of World War II and other complications interfering in her marriage. (She married right before Pearl Harbor and then my father was sent to Europe during the war.) Her best friend had her baby and died sometime before World War II if I am not mistaken. Medicine was probably not what it is now, although childbirth and delivery are not without risk even in the First World now as we have been saying. In the era about which my mother spoke to me, death in childbirth was not as infrequent as it is now. I think it was just a risk that women knew they were supposed to take and that they undertook.

When I read about Queen Elizabeth I of England I often read that she didn't want to marry because she didn't want to die in childbirth. Although I have a background in history, my background is not in the Tudor era. I do not know if that is true or myth. I would be interested in finding out if it is true, however.

Deb

FI is super big on history and knows a lot about that time. He has mentioned this as one of the possibilities for her not marrying. There are a couple of other things (I can't remember right now) that are also thought to be possible reasons, but the childbirth thing is one that keeps coming up.

 

[LaraOnline]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Having children was presented to me as natural, which I suppose it is; expected, which I realized as I grew up that it was NOT; and also as something that's difficult, but not dangerous. And that's flat out not true either. I was very surprised when my mother (who is a very educated woman with multiple degrees, masters and bachelors) still seemed to idealize it so much to me. My mother was actually pretty progressive for a Southern woman born in the '50s; but she still glossed over how downright dangerous pregnancy and childbirth can be.

Sorry if I've gone off on a tangent here...

In the era about which my mother spoke to me, death in childbirth was not as infrequent as it is now. I think it was just a risk that women knew they were supposed to take and that they undertook.

When I read about Queen Elizabeth I of England I often read that she didn't want to marry because she didn't want to die in childbirth. Although I have a background in history, my background is not in the Tudor era. I do not know if that is true or myth. I would be interested in finding out if it is true, however.

Deb

FI is super big on history and knows a lot about that time. He has mentioned this as one of the possibilities for her not marrying. There are a couple of other things (I can't remember right now) that are also thought to be possible reasons, but the childbirth thing is one that keeps coming up.

This is so interesting, because I have long felt (well, since I had my first childbirth lol) that there is a cultural 'silence' regarding birth and the details... designed, so it seems, to keep women 'in the system' of sex and childbirth. I never understood why women in earlier times didn't take a much more pragmatic view with regard to sex and children, and why there wasn't a stronger culture of protecting daughters from the risks inherent in childbirth. Instead, we see a strong historical cultural interest in rationing sex to men who volunteered to husband, but beyond that, really nothing...

 

[chrono]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I do not understand history and culture as much as many of the PSers here but I do notice that in many cultures, an unmarried or married childless woman is afforded very little respect until they have given birth to a child, in particular a male child. Women in those days are therefore expected to have many children, risk and all.

 

[LaraOnline]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Perhaps because he was not concerned with my health aspects, or my experiences (essentially he knew I'd live) it seemed he was able to focus solely on the baby and the pregnancy's outcome. He even, in his grief, told me that I was only upset for myself and didn't want to have the baby!

Lara-

Your husband was really horrible to you. I know that life's curve balls can hit a married couple hard. Our daughter's mental illness was the straw that broke the camel's back in my marriage. My husband just could not hold up any more under the strain of dealing with her and disagreeing with me over how to treat her. Circumstances affect people. But your husband neglected you when you needed him. It's hard to say it's "unpardonable" when one can see what caused it...but it sure looks unpardonable.

Hugs,
Deb

Thanks AGBF. I *did* feel quite alone, and let's face it, the medical 'stuff' can be scary, and very invasive. That does cause a distraction from the matter at hand, perhaps. His reaction WAS a surprise, and my distress did not seem to matter at the time, it must be said. He was sweet to me initially, but as my complications continued, his fuse had grown extremely short! But rather than harbour resentment it is important to remember we are all on the journey. He is still growing as a person, and is quite a marvellous person when not put in such a situation, it must be said. It seems to me that broadly speaking, emotional women are encouraged to blame themselves, whereas emotional men blame everybody else. As a mother, I hope to bring a more aware and responsible approach to my own little man, and effect the broader culture that way.

Also, I had a little revenge, which may have been wrong of me, but it did make me feel quite a bit better.
You may or may not remember that he had 'encouraged' me to consider a fourth baby by offering me a 'push present' this time round. (none forthcoming for the first three).
Not only did I 'fail to cancel' my diamond purchase, I upped the weight (considerably)! Now, who is the guilty party lol.

 

[LaraOnline]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I do not understand history and culture as much as many of the PSers here but I do notice that in many cultures, an unmarried or married childless woman is afforded very little respect until they have given birth to a child, in particular a male child. Women in those days are therefore expected to have many children, risk and all.

Yep.... incubator lol. Explains why no-one bothered to educate girls...they could die on you lol.

 

[LaraOnline]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

And I think you're completely right on all counts when it comes to the points of women's bodily contributions being taken for granted. Seems like it's changing, but it feels like it's one step forward, two steps back a lot of the time ....

We have the internet now... we can talk about private matters...publicly! Things will never be the same again lol.
Suddenly I'm remembering all those lectures at uni (that I ignored) about the public space of women's bodies (or similar slogans).
Of course, as a young woman I was obsessed with the use of engineered images of women in advertising, but it is in pregnancy and childbirth that the public ownership of women's bodies really comes to the fore...

My husband (oooh, we're painting him as a terror in this thread!!) really wanted his mum to come along to the birthing suite for the birth of our first baby, mostly, I think because as the mother of two boys, she would otherwise be excluded from the experience of viewing a birth! Both he and my m-i-l sulked, rather, when I refused to allow her to come.

I invited my own mother, mostly out of duty, and also because I was scared. To my utter suprise, even shock, she took out her camera and without asking permission or even saying a word to me, took lots of photos of me deep in the last stages of labour! I eventually had my feet up in stirrups and needed assistance with forceps! I was too tired to complain, and she took photos which showed everything! Could. Not. Believe. It. The expression on my face says everything... deep pain and exhaustion... no-one but me seemed to register that, though, when my mother showed them around. I had to delete the photos!!!

But when did labour become a public spectacle? Does everyone else invite their m-i-l to stare at their bleeding crotch ...

 

[katharath]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Having children was presented to me as natural, which I suppose it is; expected, which I realized as I grew up that it was NOT; and also as something that's difficult, but not dangerous. And that's flat out not true either. I was very surprised when my mother (who is a very educated woman with multiple degrees, masters and bachelors) still seemed to idealize it so much to me. My mother was actually pretty progressive for a Southern woman born in the '50s; but she still glossed over how downright dangerous pregnancy and childbirth can be.

Sorry if I've gone off on a tangent here...

In the era about which my mother spoke to me, death in childbirth was not as infrequent as it is now. I think it was just a risk that women knew they were supposed to take and that they undertook.

When I read about Queen Elizabeth I of England I often read that she didn't want to marry because she didn't want to die in childbirth. Although I have a background in history, my background is not in the Tudor era. I do not know if that is true or myth. I would be interested in finding out if it is true, however.

Deb

FI is super big on history and knows a lot about that time. He has mentioned this as one of the possibilities for her not marrying. There are a couple of other things (I can't remember right now) that are also thought to be possible reasons, but the childbirth thing is one that keeps coming up.

This is so interesting, because I have long felt (well, since I had my first childbirth lol) that there is a cultural 'silence' regarding birth and the details... designed, so it seems, to keep women 'in the system' of sex and childbirth. I never understood why women in earlier times didn't take a much more pragmatic view with regard to sex and children, and why there wasn't a stronger culture of protecting daughters from the risks inherent in childbirth. Instead, we see a strong historical cultural interest in rationing sex to men who volunteered to husband, but beyond that, really nothing...

Yes! This is what I also wanted to say, I completely agree.

 

[Circe]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

And I think you're completely right on all counts when it comes to the points of women's bodily contributions being taken for granted. Seems like it's changing, but it feels like it's one step forward, two steps back a lot of the time ....

We have the internet now... we can talk about private matters...publicly! Things will never be the same again lol.
Suddenly I'm remembering all those lectures at uni (that I ignored) about the public space of women's bodies (or similar slogans).
Of course, as a young woman I was obsessed with the use of engineered images of women in advertising, but it is in pregnancy and childbirth that the public ownership of women's bodies really comes to the fore...

My husband (oooh, we're painting him as a terror in this thread!!) really wanted his mum to come along to the birthing suite for the birth of our first baby, mostly, I think because as the mother of two boys, she would otherwise be excluded from the experience of viewing a birth! Both he and my m-i-l sulked, rather, when I refused to allow her to come.

I invited my own mother, mostly out of duty, and also because I was scared. To my utter suprise, even shock, she took out her camera and without asking permission or even saying a word to me, took lots of photos of me deep in the last stages of labour! I eventually had my feet up in stirrups and needed assistance with forceps! I was too tired to complain, and she took photos which showed everything! Could. Not. Believe. It. The expression on my face says everything... deep pain and exhaustion... no-one but me seemed to register that, though, when my mother showed them around. I had to delete the photos!!!

But when did labour become a public spectacle? Does everyone else invite their m-i-l to stare at their bleeding crotch ...

I still remember my husband sleeping during the part of labor where my fever spiked and they had me on an oxygen mask between bouts of vomiting. I understand it was three in the morning and his being exhausted wouldn't have helped, but ... let's just say I'm glad my best friend was there. It seems women are socialized to be a bit more empathetic! Apparently only so long as we keep the cameras out of their hands, though.

I think the picture-taking is another aspect of how women's bodies turn into public property - the strangers groping you, the people commenting on everything you do or don't put into your mouth, etc. It's the collective belief that everybody knows better than the stupid pregnant lady who can't possibly have thought about things, or weighed the risks - ha-ha, mommy brain, ladies be stupid! - that really gets me. And that, I think, is also behind the general concern that women will casually abort, willy-nilly, without considering consequences or alternatives. Infuriating all around.

 

[chrono]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

What galls me the most about laws involving birth control and abortion is that MEN who haven't the faintest clue are the ones trying to make these laws regarding women's bodies and women's choices.

 

[AGBF]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

But when did labour become a public spectacle?

I am not sure when, but I know that between 20 and 30 years ago a friend of mine who is an anesthesiologist told me a story about being handed a camera by a woman in childbirth. I believe she wanted a picture of the baby being born. I know that people videotape and photograph the birth of their children. I would never in a million years do so, but it has been common for some time. Perhaps it started with the 1960's and getting back to the earth?

Deb

 

[AGBF]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

What galls me the most about laws involving birth control and abortion is that MEN who haven't the faintest clue are the ones trying to make these laws regarding women's bodies and women's choices.

I am not happy that anyone, including a Texan woman, attempts to put his hands illegally on women's bodies in contravention of Roe v. Wade.

AGBF