What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the baby?

[TooPatient]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Kenny -- This is an interesting question and one I actually was thinking about recently.

(all of my thoughts here based on the assumption of consensual relationship anything else would be a different consideration)
I think that it is wrong for a woman to have the sole decision when it comes to keeping or ending a pregnancy BUT it is her body that will be affected by the pregnancy. She is the only one dealing with the health challenges, birthing process, loss of time at work, etc. The reality is that once the consensual sex has occurred, the man doesn't HAVE to deal with anything else until after the birth (if even then). Clearly there are men who choose to be a part of the process and do act as a support. I'm just saying that it isn't the same for the man as what the woman is going through.
On the other hand, the man and woman (still assuming consensual) BOTH made the choice to have sex and BOTH knew the potential consequences.

Women can choose to continue a pregnancy and have a child even if the father is not interested. That man can be forced to take responsibility (at least financially) whether he likes it or not.
On the other hand, a woman can choose to end the pregnancy whether he likes it or not.

What about a man who has fertility issues and may not be able to have another child?
If it were reversed and it was the woman with fertility issues, people would be all for her keeping it and celebrating that she could have a child of her own. In the case of a man with issues, the pregnancy can be ended because it is "the woman's choice" and the man has to just accept it.

I don't know that there is a good answer here. I feel strongly that both parents made a choice (still assuming consensual) and that the child is a part of both of them. I'd like to say that a man should have a choice in this but I don't know how that could work.

Tough topic!

 

[manderz]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think women who truly do not want to get pregnant have "accidents" if you catch my drift.

BS. I've known 2 people who got pregnant with an IUD inserted (correctly). Another in which the condom broke. That's just off the top of my head. Give me a break.

Agreed. Happened to my cousin, twice. Once using one method, the second time (twins) she was using 2 methods. And, 2 coworkers with IUDs.

 

[kenny]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I passionately passionately long for equality of all groups of people.

I cannot think of andy other groups that are inherently less equal than men and women when it comes to matters of reproduction.

 

[JulieN]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

A philosophical question for you: if you think women and men are inherently unequal, esp wrt to reproduction, why would you wish for equality?

 

[kenny]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

A philosophical question for you: if you think women and men are inherently unequal, esp wrt to reproduction, why would you wish for equality?

It's not that I THINK women and men are inherently unequal, esp wrt to reproduction.
They are!
Men don't get pregnant, and women usually raise the kids if the father goes away.
Those are not MY thoughts.
Those are facts.

Anatomy makes men and women not the same.
Our cultures spin that into being unequal.

Still, something makes me desire equality.
I embrace the idea that all humans are equal.

Frankly I have no idea where this comes from, since the opposite is played out again and again.

Perhaps equality is naive folly.

 

[packrat]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

After going thru labor ending in a c section, and then a repeat section w/our second baby, I would love there to be a way for true "equality" but alas..

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

After going thru labor ending in a c section, and then a repeat section w/our second baby, I would love there to be a way for true "equality" but alas..

amen!

 

[Bunny007]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

It raises a lot of interesting issues but, as a practical matter, how could both parties have equal decision making power anyway? Say woman wants an abortion and man doesn't: what then? Tie-breaker? Rock scissors paper? Mediation? I don't see how it could be any other way.

 

[TooPatient]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

It raises a lot of interesting issues but, as a practical matter, how could both parties have equal decision making power anyway? Say woman wants an abortion and man doesn't: what then? Tie-breaker? Rock scissors paper? Mediation? I don't see how it could be any other way.

And at the end of the mediation or whatever, what is to keep the woman from ending the pregnancy anyway? There are enough options out there that she could just have a friend pick up for her that you could never know. (I'm not familiar with all of the medical options regarding this -- is there a way to tell natural miscarriage from voluntary abortion?)

 

[Circe]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

It raises a lot of interesting issues but, as a practical matter, how could both parties have equal decision making power anyway? Say woman wants an abortion and man doesn't: what then? Tie-breaker? Rock scissors paper? Mediation? I don't see how it could be any other way.

And at the end of the mediation or whatever, what is to keep the woman from ending the pregnancy anyway? There are enough options out there that she could just have a friend pick up for her that you could never know. (I'm not familiar with all of the medical options regarding this -- is there a way to tell natural miscarriage from voluntary abortion?)

Nope, not really - but in the same vein as Georgia, I bet it could give a lot of pregnant or TTC women nervous breakdowns.

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/02/miscarriage-death-penalty-georgia

 

[TooPatient]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

It raises a lot of interesting issues but, as a practical matter, how could both parties have equal decision making power anyway? Say woman wants an abortion and man doesn't: what then? Tie-breaker? Rock scissors paper? Mediation? I don't see how it could be any other way.

And at the end of the mediation or whatever, what is to keep the woman from ending the pregnancy anyway? There are enough options out there that she could just have a friend pick up for her that you could never know. (I'm not familiar with all of the medical options regarding this -- is there a way to tell natural miscarriage from voluntary abortion?)

Nope, not really - but in the same vein as Georgia, I bet it could give a lot of pregnant or TTC women nervous breakdowns.

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/02/miscarriage-death-penalty-georgia

How awful!

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

"What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the baby?"
Too bad.

This is purely about the bodily autonomy of the woman (or the person with the uterus). Because the father is then guilty of forced pregnancy and forced birth.
Forcing someone to do something with their body against their will, without their consent. Ugh.

 

[justginger]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

What a strange and thought-provoking discussion.

I see both sides very clearly. That child is half the man's. That can't be taken away. But it often is, because I suppose 'possession is 9/10ths of the law' can be applied to a fetus. It's IN the woman, so therefore it is her prerogative to do with as she sees fit - it is HER body that is hijacked and put through the wringer. So I guess the baby, in terms of legality, is 49% his and 51% hers?

Is that fair? No. Definitely not. I can't imagine doing this to another person, in the case the man had intermittent fertility issues and DESPERATELY wanted a child. Nor could I imagine that scenario occurs very often at all... I would guess that the man NOT wanting the child and the woman overriding him and deciding to have it is much more common. Again, it's not fair that he has to pay 18 years of child support for a child he doesn't want, while she has the option of ending the pregnancy and not dealing with it herself.

I guess life isn't fair, and when it comes to reproduction, it is glaringly obvious.

 

[LaraOnline]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Interesting discussion!
I know that when we suddenly and sadly lost our (planned) baby last year, my husband was incredibly devastated by it.
Perhaps because he was not concerned with my health aspects, or my experiences (essentially he knew I'd live) it seemed he was able to focus solely on the baby and the pregnancy's outcome.
He even, in his grief, told me that I was only upset for myself and didn't want to have the baby!
(We are, I might add, a fairly traditional family. My world is essentially the round of babies and bedtimes; he has the more stimulating role of 'breadwinner')
How could I say that yes, I was traumatised by my medical experiences, and yes, I was worried about infections, future health problems etc etc.
Women are incubators, and are at times are treated as such.

Please note, I don't want to hijack this thread with other themes, but it does seem - very much - that the sheer regularity of pregnancy and childbirth means that humanity generally vastly under-appreciates the effort involved in labour and of course child rearing.
After my first labour, I really realised I had expected to die. (drug-free though, so felt everything). But...where was my gold badge lol?

I mean, it is common for women to have longer term health issues from their birthing experiences, many years after the child is born.
Yet the world just seems to expect this kind of crazy life-risking effort from women. With no pay, and no provision for their future.

 

[monarch64]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

It is one of "those" questions. I'm glad you asked, Kenny. I hope everyone gains something from the discussion.

I guess you really never know unless you experience it.

 

[AGBF]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Perhaps because he was not concerned with my health aspects, or my experiences (essentially he knew I'd live) it seemed he was able to focus solely on the baby and the pregnancy's outcome. He even, in his grief, told me that I was only upset for myself and didn't want to have the baby!

Lara-

Your husband was really horrible to you. I know that life's curve balls can hit a married couple hard. Our daughter's mental illness was the straw that broke the camel's back in my marriage. My husband just could not hold up any more under the strain of dealing with her and disagreeing with me over how to treat her. Circumstances affect people. But your husband neglected you when you needed him. It's hard to say it's "unpardonable" when one can see what caused it...but it sure looks unpardonable.

Hugs,
Deb

 

[momhappy]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Interesting topic for sure, but not something that I feel is appropriate for an online forum due to the emotionally-charged nature of the discussion.

 

[dragonfly411]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I LOVE my problems.

Flash Bling Flash Bling!

Before I continue reading, I just want to say I love your problems too!

 

[armywife13]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

After going thru labor ending in a c section, and then a repeat section w/our second baby, I would love there to be a way for true "equality" but alas..

Right there with ya, Packrat. I went into labor with both of my pregnancies, but both ended with c-sections and the wonderful recovery that comes with them.
I know that this subject is a touchy one, but I really do feel like the woman does and should get more say. The woman is the one who's body goes through the pregnancy and delivery-and all the risks and consequences that go along with it.

 

[Circe]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Interesting discussion!
I know that when we suddenly and sadly lost our (planned) baby last year, my husband was incredibly devastated by it.
Perhaps because he was not concerned with my health aspects, or my experiences (essentially he knew I'd live) it seemed he was able to focus solely on the baby and the pregnancy's outcome.
He even, in his grief, told me that I was only upset for myself and didn't want to have the baby!
(We are, I might add, a fairly traditional family. My world is essentially the round of babies and bedtimes; he has the more stimulating role of 'breadwinner')
How could I say that yes, I was traumatised by my medical experiences, and yes, I was worried about infections, future health problems etc etc.
Women are incubators, and are at times are treated as such.

Please note, I don't want to hijack this thread with other themes, but it does seem - very much - that the sheer regularity of pregnancy and childbirth means that humanity generally vastly under-appreciates the effort involved in labour and of course child rearing.
After my first labour, I really realised I had expected to die. (drug-free though, so felt everything). But...where was my gold badge lol?

I mean, it is common for women to have longer term health issues from their birthing experiences, many years after the child is born.
Yet the world just seems to expect this kind of crazy life-risking effort from women. With no pay, and no provision for their future.

Lara, I'm really, really sorry - I went through something similar, and it took me literally years to get over it. It can be an amazing blow emotionally for both people. When we got the news initially, my husband almost passed out and had to lie down (and he's generally the hardiest, most roll-with-the-punches sort you can imagine). It was hard on the marriage, too, for the next year - we didn't blame one another, but we had a lot to work through. I try not to criticize people's spouses, but I would have taken a reaction like your husband's ... badly, I think, especially given how much time I spent blaming myself before the doc diagnosed the problem.

And I think you're completely right on all counts when it comes to the points of women's bodily contributions being taken for granted. Seems like it's changing, but it feels like it's one step forward, two steps back a lot of the time ....

 

[ericad]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Interesting discussion!
I know that when we suddenly and sadly lost our (planned) baby last year, my husband was incredibly devastated by it.
Perhaps because he was not concerned with my health aspects, or my experiences (essentially he knew I'd live) it seemed he was able to focus solely on the baby and the pregnancy's outcome.
He even, in his grief, told me that I was only upset for myself and didn't want to have the baby!
(We are, I might add, a fairly traditional family. My world is essentially the round of babies and bedtimes; he has the more stimulating role of 'breadwinner')
How could I say that yes, I was traumatised by my medical experiences, and yes, I was worried about infections, future health problems etc etc.
Women are incubators, and are at times are treated as such.

Please note, I don't want to hijack this thread with other themes, but it does seem - very much - that the sheer regularity of pregnancy and childbirth means that humanity generally vastly under-appreciates the effort involved in labour and of course child rearing.
After my first labour, I really realised I had expected to die. (drug-free though, so felt everything). But...where was my gold badge lol?

I mean, it is common for women to have longer term health issues from their birthing experiences, many years after the child is born.
Yet the world just seems to expect this kind of crazy life-risking effort from women. With no pay, and no provision for their future.

Your post made me think of this, which I found thought provoking. I've miscarried a very much wanted baby, as well as delivered a very much wanted child, and found both experiences to be emotionally and physically traumatic in different ways, and this article really resonated with me. Just wanted to share. The language is a bit salty, lol, so you've been warned (and of course it's not applicable to everyone).

http://jezebel.com/stop-acting-like-bouncing-back-from-labor-is-even-pos-1168230225

 

[smitcompton]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Hi,

I think most agree it is the womans decision whether or not to have a child. Of course some men might disagree with this. Yes, kenny, this an interesting topic worth discussing even just for you. If I could extend it just a bit, I wonder what the law is regarding giving up a child for adoption, and the fathers rights there. i think if a man wishes to have custody of the baby in this type of case, I think the child should go to the father, barring he is not unfit, regardless of what the mother wants. Some woman will not have an abortion and chose to give the baby up.


Just a bit of historical perspective. In the 1800.s divorce did not have the social stigma that was present in my generation. Often, more often than not, the children went to live with the father. The woman was still accepted in society, and was not called a terrible woman for not caring for her children. Fathers took care of the children. The mother visited them. It was often amiable. I'm not saying all did (children with fathers), but society changes as new thoughts become mainstream.


Annette

Remember women keep children because they will be thought of as a bad mother if they don't.

 

[vintagelover229]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I guess I'm standing here alone when I say I think the woman should carry the baby to term given that it's a low risk pregnancy.

I mean-I know we're talking about a woman's body here. As a mom who had a baby just under a year ago-and not the most fun labour (all natural with an eposomity and 3 hrs of pushing) considering there is an unborn life-that is wanted by the father-who has half his DNA-not to mention the grandparents and all the other lives affected-I think it's a very selfish act (stone me I don't care) for a woman to end the pregnancy if the father is willing to take full responsibility after the birth. If something were to happen-heck the mom might change her mind and find she loves being a mom and wants to keep the child herself-or the dad backs out-adoption is always another option.


Life is precious and I think too many women choose the "easier" option (and I am NOT saying that it's an easy decision to live with or to make at all and there are reasons for everything-I get that) compared to going though all the changes-meeting the life you had such a HUGE part of creating-going to delivery-than terminating and dealing with the father (who you may or may not want anything to do with or remind you of ever again).

 

[gem_anemone]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think women who truly do not want to get pregnant have "accidents" if you catch my drift.

BS. I've known 2 people who got pregnant with an IUD inserted (correctly). Another in which the condom broke. That's just off the top of my head. Give me a break.

Personally I can't imagine relying solely on condoms for protection against pregnancy. I believe it is very risky and I would only use it by itself if it were ok for me to become pregnant if it broke. The IUD pregnancy is a fluke, yes, but I find it weird that you know so many people that fall into that 0.2-0.7% failure rate. IMO your friends are the exception and not the rule.

 

[ericad]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I guess I'm standing here alone when I say I think the woman should carry the baby to term given that it's a low risk pregnancy.

This decision would most likely be made during the first trimester. How can she know if her pregnancy will be low risk that early on? Complications often develop later, or during delivery.

Do you think it's ok for someone else to make decisions regarding one's body, without their consent? I know that you're saying that the woman should consent because, in your opinion, it's the right thing to do. But do you feel that a woman should be forced, by a judge for example, to incubate a child against her will? This is the core issue. What can a man legally do (or should he be legally allowed to do) to compel a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I guess I'm standing here alone when I say I think the woman should carry the baby to term given that it's a low risk pregnancy.

I mean-I know we're talking about a woman's body here. As a mom who had a baby just under a year ago-and not the most fun labour (all natural with an eposomity and 3 hrs of pushing) considering there is an unborn life-that is wanted by the father-who has half his DNA-not to mention the grandparents and all the other lives affected-I think it's a very selfish act (stone me I don't care) for a woman to end the pregnancy if the father is willing to take full responsibility after the birth. If something were to happen-heck the mom might change her mind and find she loves being a mom and wants to keep the child herself-or the dad backs out-adoption is always another option.


Life is precious and I think too many women choose the "easier" option (and I am NOT saying that it's an easy decision to live with or to make at all and there are reasons for everything-I get that) compared to going though all the changes-meeting the life you had such a HUGE part of creating-going to delivery-than terminating and dealing with the father (who you may or may not want anything to do with or remind you of ever again).

Riiiiiight. So you are advocating forcing the woman to be pregnant and give birth to an unwanted (by her) baby. Because she had the audacity to have sex. Good lord.

Here is part of a blog post about abortion exceptions that I have edited for PS:

Leaving aside that "I don't want to be pregnant" is all the reason any woman should ever need, the Exceptioneers' position also excludes a multitude of things that are just as out of any woman's control as any of their precious exceptions: If you were raped but can't prove it, if you had a contraceptive failure, if you just lost your job, if you found out the fetus will die as soon as it's born, if you're pregnant by someone who became abusive, if you've been diagnosed with a non-life threatening illness, if your existing child has become ill, if your spouse has become ill, if your parent has become ill, if your psychiatric medication is incompatible with pregnancy, if you lost your health insurance, if…if…if any of these things, tough s*** for you. Should have kept your legs closed if you weren't prepared to RAISE A CHILD IN ANY CONCEIVABLE CIRCUMSTANCE IN THE WORLD!!!

It would be genuinely hilarious that there are people who believe "Don't ever have sex unless you will be absolutely prepared to parent in whatever circumstances you find yourself nine months from now" is a reasonable position, if those people didn't have so much control over reproductive and health policy.

What's rage-inducing about the Exceptioneers is that they obviously haven't given any thought at all to the inconsistency of their position (or spoken seriously to anyone who might inform their opinions with some "facts") if they're willing to concede that being forced to carry to term a pregnancy created by rape can totally f***you up, but don't understand how being forced to carry to term a pregnancy that you didn't plan and don't want can totally f*** you up, too.

How ridiculously incapable of self-reflection can one be that one is able to acknowledge that rape (forcing a woman to do something with her body she doesn't want to do) is a Terrible Thing, but the denial of abortion (forcing a woman to do something with her body she doesn't want to do) is a Moral Imperative?

http://www.shakesville.com/2010/04/on-abortion-exceptions-rape-incest.html

Also, legal abortion is safer than giving birth.

Dr. Elizabeth Raymond from Gynuity Health Projects in New York City and Dr. David Grimes of the University of North Carolina School of Medicine, Chapel Hill, found that between 1998 and 2005, one woman died during childbirth for every 11,000 or so babies born.

That compared to one woman of every 167,000 who died from a legal abortion.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/23/us-abortion-idUSTRE80M2BS20120123

 

[katharath]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

This thread is interesting bc it's not asking "should abortion be legal?; it's asking, "does the father having any rights in forcing a woman to continue or to end a pregnancy?"

What I find so interesting is that almost every post in here agrees that no, we cannot let other people make decisions for our bodies, so we must say no (even to the fathers).

But if everyone seemingly agrees with this, then how is it that we have ANYONE willing to support any measures which make abortion restricted or illegal? Do the people voting for anti-abortion measures grasp that what they are truly saying with a vote cast that way is "I do not think that you should get to decide what is best for your body; I believe that I personally know better what is best."

I really wonder - if you took a poll that asked "Should abortion be legal?" and you took another poll that asked "Should fathers be able to end or force a woman's pregnancy?" would we have conflicting answers? I personally think that the answer is yes. I really wonder if people who are anti-choice fully grasp what they're saying when they say abortion should be restricted/illegal. They are saying that a person should not have the ability to make choices about their own bodies. I honestly wonder if this would ever have become an issue if men could have children. How would the average man feel if told that he was not allowed to make medical decisions for his body - that the state said no, sorry, we don't like that choice so you can't make it.

 

[erinl]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I don't approach this from a moral standpoint, but sex has its inherent risks--STDS, pregnancy etc. If one is not willing to accept those risks, then one shouldn't be having sex with that person.

 

[AGBF]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I guess I'm standing here alone when I say I think the woman should carry the baby to term given that it's a low risk pregnancy.

This decision would most likely be made during the first trimester. How can she know if her pregnancy will be low risk that early on? Complications often develop later, or during delivery.

Not often. Almost always.

One of the healthiest women I know almost died in her third trimester. She had preeclampsia at the very end of her pregnancy. She was on bed rest for fear of a stroke. Her blood pressure didn't go down for at least a year after she gave birth. She had wanted desperately to be pregnant with a biological child (she had already adopted a beautiful son) and was pregnant with twin girls after in vitro fertilization. The pregnancy itself was a miracle. She had been treated for infertility with two different husbands, one in her 20's, one in her 30's. She has always been thin and athletic. She was (and is) a runner. Her husband is a tennis pro. She had been agonizing over whether to attempt in vitro with their limited financial resources or to spend the money on another adoption. After she gave birth to the girls she said, "Pregnancy isn't what it's cracked up to be".

A woman should only do this if she wants to do it!

AGBF

 

[Rhea]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I don't approach this from a moral standpoint, but sex has its inherent risks--STDS, pregnancy etc. If one is not willing to accept those risks, then one shouldn't be having sex with that person.

Should one of these risks be that one is legally obligated to continue the pregnancy if their partner wants the child and they do not? Or is one of the risks that the person is pregnant makes the final decision about the future of the pregnancy whether the non-pregnant partner wants the pregnancy or not?