What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the baby?

[kenny]

Here's a story about a boyfriend, who did not want the pregnancy, tricking his pregnant girlfriend, who wanted the pregnancy, into taking the abortion pill.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/10/justice/girlfriend-abortion-case/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Clearly what this man did was abominable and he deserves his punishment.

Men and women disagreeing about their pregnancy is not new.
Yes I said "their".
I now hear men and women say, "WE are pregnant."

But now that there's an abortion pill can't the woman take the pill without the father's consent?
I think so.

Does he get to prevent her from taking the morning after pill?
I think not.
So why the inconsistency in who decides to continue the pregnancy?
Should the woman have the final word since it is usually the woman who gets stuck with the burden if the man leaves?

Or is the woman having full power unfair sexism?
Should the woman have more decision making power since it's growing in her body, not his?
When a woman has consensual unprotected sex but wants to abort, shouldn't the father have half the say over the decision?

I'm under the impression that a woman, married or not, has exclusive rights over choice to end a pregnancy; the father has no say.
It this true?
Does anyone know if all 50 states have different rules about the rights of the man and woman?

I don't know what's right.
I just wonder about how it is and how it should be.

 

[AGBF]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Do you really want to start this thread, kenny? Ella is going to have to close it sooner or later.

Deb

 

[kenny]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Do you really want to start this thread, kenny? Ella is going to have to close it sooner or later.

Deb

Yes, absolutely.

I think the rights of both the man and women over a pregnancy resulting from consensual sex is a legit and interesting topic.
It is not politics, religion or race.

Ella will not have to close it if people can have a reasonable discussion and not degenerate into insults.
We have behaved like adults discussing challenging topics before.

I ask people to behave well, per PS rules.

 

[AGBF]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Ella will not have to close it if people can have a reasonable discussion and not degenerate into insults.
We have behaved like adults discussing challenging topics before.

I ask people to behave well, per PS rules.

I do not want to start this thread out by arguing with you about your right to start a thread: there is no doubt that you have the right. My point of view on whether people can have a reasonable discussion on every topic is different from yours, however. In my opinion, if people could be civilized, courteous, and reasonable about every topic, there would be no need to ban any topic from discussion.

Deb

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

this topic has always touched buttons and tempers have flared: i'm with Deb.
I will, though, say the following: consensual sex does not mean an ongoing interest in either partner.
consensual sex is merely an agreement to enjoy each others' bodies at that moment in time and in that place.
it does not imply anything more than that.

 

[kenny]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

this topic has always touched buttons and tempers have flared: i'm with Deb.
I will, though, say the following: consensual sex does not mean an ongoing interest in either partner.
consensual sex is merely an agreement to enjoy each others' bodies at that moment in time and in that place.
it does not imply anything more than that.

But it can make a baby, wanted or not.
Laws should be in place to accommodate that inevitably, and who has what decision making power over the continuation of the pregnancy.

Another angle ... what about when birth control fails?
BC used by both men and women do not have a 100% success rate.

If the pill doesn't work and the woman conceives I think she has more decision making power over the choice, since she did her job to avoid conception.
Likewise if the condom breaks the man should have more power over the choice.
Fair?

But then again, maybe it should not be a fair thing since men don't get pregnant, and it's usually the woman who gets stuck raising the kid if they break up ... but then men who walk must pay child support.

 

[dragonfly411]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I think in the end Kenny, if a woman doesn't want to have the child, she has the right. It is her body, and her body that will be put through 9 months of hard living. It is her body that is put at risk and sometimes her life. If that man wants a child, he is more than welcome to go find a woman who wants to have a child with him. A woman should never have to serve as an incubator. Ever.

 

[VRBeauty]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

If the pill doesn't work and the woman conceives I think she has more decision making power over the choice, since she did her job to avoid conception.
Likewise if the condom breaks the man should have more power over the choice.
Fair?

No. Unless there was coersion involved, they both consented to sex under the conditions at hand - including the birth control method and its inherent failure rate.

 

[gem_anemone]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think women who truly do not want to get pregnant have "accidents" if you catch my drift.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

[quote="kenny|1378839797|3518050...............
Laws should be in place to accommodate that inevitably, and who has what decision making power over the continuation of the pregnancy.
.........[/quote]


and therein lies the problem, Kenny: who would you have make the decision? the Supreme Court made pro-choice the law of the land with its decision in Roe v. Wade. the decision while not explicit it leaves the decision to the woman.

i'm betting the same people that want to criminalize/demonize homosexuality are the same people that want to make the choice re abortion for all women as well. be careful, Kenny.

perhaps coitus should be a matter of contract law.....which according to some it already is as it should only happen under the contract of marriage.

again, Kenny, be very careful. "should" doesn't often coincide with human nature...........gays should be hetero, men should make all decisions, women should not handle $, women should not be elected officials, women should not vote, etc.

I don't understand why it is so hard to accept that it is the woman's decision. period.

 

[ericad]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Haven't read the thread yet, but want to point out that the abortion pill and morning after pill are two different things.

 

[coda72]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

[quote="kenny|1378839797|3518050...............
Laws should be in place to accommodate that inevitably, and who has what decision making power over the continuation of the pregnancy.
.........

I don't understand why it is so hard to accept that it is the woman's decision. period.[/quote]

I agree, MZ. It is the woman's decision, since she is the one who carries the child for 9 months and raises the child soley if the father isn't present. And getting child support from the father isn't a sure thing. In fact I know many single mothers who have never seen a dime of child support and never will.

 

[kenny]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I accept the law.
If the law says the father has no say in the choice that settles it.

Sorry I though RvW just made abortion legal; I had no idea it also excluded the dad in the decision making process.
Thanks for educating me.

Asking "why it's so hard to accept it's a woman's right to choose" is not fair to me.
I never said I don't accept that.
In fact, I've stated since women are the ones to get pregnant and usually end up having to raise the kids perhaps it's more their decision.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

ericad, raises another question: who makes the decision on whether to take the morning after pill which is a form of birth control? I believe that that issue has already been addressed in that women have access to it.

in Kenny's scenario of consensual sex is it allowable for a woman to take that pill w/o consulting her sex partner, even if it was a one night stand? or does the burden of obtaining consent to use an after sex birth control method lie solely with her? what if her sex partner finds out later that she utilized that form of birth control? again, be very very careful in deciding who gets to make what decisions and when.

if a man really wants to be a father out of wedlock he can find a partner or surrogate and do so under contract.
if a man really wants to be a father out of wedlock he can adopt.
there are other ways for him to be a father than forcing a woman who doesn't want his child to have it.

there are health risks associated with pregnancy and child birth.
therefore, decisions regarding whether to proceed with a pregnancy or terminate it remain with her.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Kenny, to be fair, i don't believe RvW is explicit in that it is the woman's decision but is arrived via "a right to privacy under the due process clause of the 14th Amendment extended to a woman's decision to have an abortion" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade

it did not address whether or not a "partner" had to be considered. that many would have it so is true. however, that would violate that "right to privacy" with one's physician and then there is this:

"As the Court returned to the subject of abortion in subsequent decades, the rationale for its decisions shifted. In the 1992 case of Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the court reaffirmed Roe in an opinion written jointly by Sandra Day O’Connor, Anthony Kennedy, and David Souter. That decision focussed on the provision of the Fourteenth Amendment which says that no state shall “deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” The Justices said that a woman’s decision to terminate a pregnancy was within the “realm of personal liberty which the government may not enter.” More recently, in a dissenting opinion, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, joined by three other Justices, offered still another constitutional justification for a woman’s right to choose, under a different part of the Fourteenth Amendment: the equal-protection clause. Undue restrictions on the right to abortion, Ginsburg wrote, violate “a woman’s autonomy to determine her life’s course, and thus to enjoy equal citizenship stature.”
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2013/01/28/130128taco_talk_toobin

and there you have it: while originally it was not explicit but implicit, over time it became "explicit" as per Ginsburg's writing. however, many still do not want to accept it.

as a side note: consensual sex does not involve taking a medical history....at least that has been my experience of it.

 

[partgypsy]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think women who truly do not want to get pregnant have "accidents" if you catch my drift.

BS. I've known 2 people who got pregnant with an IUD inserted (correctly). Another in which the condom broke. That's just off the top of my head. Give me a break.

 

[Circe]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

People should have the final say over their own bodies. Pregnancy may affect a man emotionally and financially, but at the end of the day, it won't create any health issues (and sometimes, depending on the state and the judge, it might not affect him practically, either - rulings for support are notoriously all over the map).

The idea of a father having a vote is a little problematic because it's historically been a way in which men have controlled women's bodies - once a woman is pregnant, she's dependent. There have been cases of male partners forcibly impregnating women (either using actual physical force, or sabotaging the woman's birth control) in order to keep them from leaving. There have been cases of rapists suing for custody of the resulting children, either to stay in their victims lives, or to use it as a bargaining chip to get out of paying child support. I usually don't like slippery slope arguments, but in this case it's hard to keep from sliding into that territory.

In the story you linked, I think what the man did is assault - he slipped her a drug that's got the potential to be dangerous under false pretenses. There isn't really an equivalent from the female-to-male side, unless she's going to be performing a vasectomy while he's asleep ....

 

[Kaleigh]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I get your point Kenny.. Thought provoking. But if the woman doesn't want it, that's that..

 

[yssie]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

*Deleted.
This thread will just raise my blood pressure.

 

[JulieN]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I agree with movie zombie that Roe v Wade implicitly, but very clearly, makes it the woman's decision.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

A woman should never have to serve as an incubator. Ever.

Says it in a nutshell. I can't imagine a man who would force an unwilling woman to bear his child, however conceived, being a good father; something wrong in such a character. Any man who truly wants a kid has other choices, as mentioned above, and many have taken advantage of them.

I realize you're just asking, Kenny, not advocating one way or another. I wonder if there's a difference between answers you'd get from men and from women.

--- Laurie

 

[kenny]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I realize you're just asking, Kenny, not advocating one way or another.

Thank you.
I really appreciate you not getting out your shotgun since, after all, I AM a man discussing this.

Keep in mind I'm a man who has never had to worry about getting a gal pregnant.
Perhaps that explains some of my genuine ignorance of the law on what say a man has on the continuation of a pregnancy he was 50% responsible for.

Now I understand he has no say and that is how it should be. Period.

My curiosity was prompted by this CNN story.

 

[ericad]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

The fetus is part of the woman's body and under her control until it's born, so the dudes are SOL on this one, IMO. No one has the right to control another person's body against their will - I can think of no scenario where this is ever legal (rape, kidnapping, drugging, killing, etc.) and don't see forcing a woman to incubate a baby against her will as being any different. On the flip side, if the man wants to abort and the woman doesn't, should a court be allowed to force a pregnant woman to have an abortion? Of course not.

It's just one of those "life isn't always fair" situations.

 

[ksinger]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

This is a very core issue. I would say flatly like several others here, that it (the decision to continue the pregnancy or not) is inherently the woman's choice by nature of the process being solely the woman's. Gender "fairness" is not even a consideration. Any involvement of the man in that choice is only at the consent of the woman. Period. This of course, is the incontrovertible and obvious fact that has made men who have always loved fancying themselves masters of life and death, pretty crazy over the millenia. It's hard to see yourself in the image of a god, when the person with the real power to create or destroy life, doesn't look like you at all. Hence all the indoctrination, physical coercion, etc, to convince women that they are not morally fit to make such decisions, and that it should be the provice of males and male deities to decide such things. That way she gives OVER her power willingly, or at least is scared into doing so.

An excerpt from a novel I read years ago, about a woman who became a doctor in the 19th century. I've never forgotten the passage...the protaganist is coming to grips with the death of her friend who died while desperately seeking an illegal abortion:

"They have no idea, the men, of what really happened here...if they did, if they came dangerously close to understanding it, they would quickly turn away, fearful of the truth they saw there. The truth that they are not what they think they are. Men are wrong in believing themselves to be the masters, the God-ordained guardians of life and death on earth. They only think they hold the daily verdicts of life and death in their hands because women permit them the illusion, to keep them satisfied; the very primary decisions in life and death abide solely with the women, that mystic sisterhood of secret keepers...Because they fear us men keep us enslaved, but only with our consent; they are our jailers but we are their wardens."

 

[amc80]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

Have you ever watched Teen Mom or 16 and Pregnant? There's been more than one episode where the mom wants to give the baby up for adoption but is talked out of it by the dad. Fast forward until the baby is born and the dad has little involvement with the baby.

Ericad is right- sometimes life isn't fair.

I'm in the "if you don't want a baby, don't make a baby a possibility" camp. All birth control methods have a failure rate. If you're not okay with that failure rate then don't have sex.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

[quote="kenny|1378849128|3518174...............Keep in mind I'm a man who has never had to worry about getting a gal pregnant.
Perhaps that explains some of my genuine ignorance of the law on what say a man has on the continuation of a pregnancy he was 50% responsible for. Now I understand he has no say and that is how it should be. Period. My curiosity was prompted by this CNN story.[/quote]


said like a true gentleman and a real man!
and I give you credit for wanting to understand.
it is the reason this thread stayed civil.
thanks, Kenny!

 

[kenny]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

[quote="kenny|1378849128|3518174...............Keep in mind I'm a man who has never had to worry about getting a gal pregnant.
Perhaps that explains some of my genuine ignorance of the law on what say a man has on the continuation of a pregnancy he was 50% responsible for. Now I understand he has no say and that is how it should be. Period. My curiosity was prompted by this CNN story.

said like a true gentleman and a real man!
and I give you credit for wanting to understand.
it is the reason this thread stayed civil.
thanks, Kenny![/quote]

Maybe I'm just trying to get all you sexy gals to chase me, tackle me, rip off my clothes, and cure me of my gay problem.

Seriously, thanks MZ.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I don't think you have a gay problem, Kenny!
no, I think you have a color diamond addiction problem!!!!!!!!!
not to mention that small matter re octavias.............

 

[kenny]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I LOVE my problems.

Flash Bling Flash Bling!

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What if only the father wants pregnant mom to keep the b

I love your problems, too!
thank you for sharing them with us!
nothing like bling **** to bring out the best in people!