what do you consider sexual harassment ?

[Dancing Fire]

where do you draw the line?

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

for me it''s anything that makes me uncomfortable. It doesn''t have to be overtly sexual in nature, we all know the "icky" feeling you get when it happens...

 

[Lauren8211]

It''s harassment when something happens that has made me uncomfortable, I''ve told them clearly that it makes me uncomfortable, yet they continue the behavior.

Or, obviously it is sexual harassment if someone says "if you do "X" to me, I''ll give you a raise..." or something along those lines.

 

[CurlySue]

Date: 5/14/2009 11:15:38 AM
Author: elledizzy5
It''s harassment when something happens that has made me uncomfortable, I''ve told them clearly that it makes me uncomfortable, yet they continue the behavior.

Or, obviously it is sexual harassment if someone says ''if you do ''X'' to me, I''ll give you a raise...'' or something along those lines.

This would be my definition of it, as well.

 

[purrfectpear]

In my case, touching and/or extremely explicit verbal comments. Something beyond "how you doin'' baby"

Sexual harrassment was the least of issues I''ve dealt with. I once had a boss throw a chair at me

(No, I didn''t go to HR, I made him apologize on my own).

 

[lliang_chi]

Dude, Purrfect, a CHAIR?!?!

 

[meresal]

Date: 5/14/2009 11:13:28 AM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
for me it's anything that makes me uncomfortable. It doesn't have to be overtly sexual in nature, we all know the 'icky' feeling you get when it happens...

ITA... and with elle about repeated bahavior after being approached before. however, what about when someone else's actions towards other people makes you uncomfortable.

Our sales guy will go around giving shoulder rubs to some of the women in the office. It TOTALLY weirds me out. He has one of those soft slow-spoken voices, and combine that with words of encouragment, and a shoulder rub...

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 5/14/2009 11:32:18 AM
Author: lliang_chi
Dude, Purrfect, a CHAIR?!?!

Yeah, aerospace was old skool. As a male dominated field we had more than our share of theory X managers. I''ve watched men take their shoes off and start pounding the conference table, everyone swore like a sailor, a guy threw his monitor out the window, supervisors having heart attacks and strokes on the job, you name it...

You should have seen the Friday after work parties at the local watering hole

We''re all quite "PC" these days

 

[misskitty]

Date: 5/14/2009 11:20:22 AM
Author: CurlySue

Date: 5/14/2009 11:15:38 AM

Author: elledizzy5

It''s harassment when something happens that has made me uncomfortable, I''ve told them clearly that it makes me uncomfortable, yet they continue the behavior.


Or, obviously it is sexual harassment if someone says ''if you do ''X'' to me, I''ll give you a raise...'' or something along those lines.

This would be my definition of it, as well.

Ditto this for me.

And WOW at the chair-throwing.

 

[musey]

Honestly, anything that I've explicitly told the person I'm uncomfortable with but they persist, OR something that is clearly over ANYONE'S line (like touching in an inappropriate way, extremely sexual comments, etc.).

I'm not generally bothered by vaguely sexual remarks because I was raised in a very open/joking environment in that regard. I once bought a pair of dance pants with two zippers in the front, and my dad said "Ooh, easy access!"

I was 12, by the way. It was just his way of joking - but I had to make it clear on MANY an occasion that while he may be able to do that with his own family, doing that to my friends was NOT OKAY under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Actually, my dad had a sexual harassment complaint at work one time, there was a whole to-do about it and he was put on probation (not allowed to talk to that group of people or something). He'd told a dirty joke to one of the nurses, and she'd taken offense to it. The docs joke like that all the time so he didn't even think twice about interacting with the nurses in the same way.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Everyone has a difference idea of "comfort level," so to give an idea of what would over the line for me: A man attempting to touch me in any way. . .even on the arm as a light tap! Saying anything graphic in nature, photos, or emails, which describe anything about body or sex, could be offensive.

There is a mechanic who does a great job with my car, but every time I see him, he says offensive things. He told me I have a "great body," instead of focusing on my car and the noise it was making. He made hand gestures about doing when men do (you know)! There was a bunch more stuff. All his employees are male. Wonder why!

 

[musey]

Date: 5/14/2009 12:47:47 PM
Author: MC
Everyone has a difference idea of ''comfort level,'' so to give an idea of what would over the line for me: A man attempting to touch me in any way. . .even on the arm as a light tap! Saying anything graphic in nature, photos, or emails, which describe anything about body or sex, could be offensive.

Just for argument''s sake: offensive, or harassment?

I don''t work in an office environment so I''m a little offensive on the line between the two. I get forwarded emails from time to time with jokes or videos that make me turn up my nose, stuff I''d email the person back and say "EW, why did you send that to me?? DON''T in the future, thanks!" about, and I''d feel it was offensive - but I wouldn''t feel sexually harassed.

I think in order for me to feel sexually harassed, it would need to be about me, like the mechanic you were talking about. I would definitely feel harassed in that situation

yuck.

 

[Shoopy]

Date: 5/14/2009 12:53:12 PM
Author: musey

Date: 5/14/2009 12:47:47 PM
Author: MC
Everyone has a difference idea of ''comfort level,'' so to give an idea of what would over the line for me: A man attempting to touch me in any way. . .even on the arm as a light tap! Saying anything graphic in nature, photos, or emails, which describe anything about body or sex, could be offensive.

Just for argument''s sake: offensive, or harassment?

I don''t work in an office environment so I''m a little offensive on the line between the two. I get forwarded emails from time to time with jokes or videos that make me turn up my nose, stuff I''d email the person back and say ''EW, why did you send that to me?? DON''T in the future, thanks!'' about, and I''d feel it was offensive - but I wouldn''t feel sexually harassed.

I think in order for me to feel sexually harassed, it would need to be about me, like the mechanic you were talking about. I would definitely feel harassed in that situation

yuck.

In my corporate world, if someone forwards any of the above and it offends me, HR considers it sexual harrassment. I don''t even have to tell the person to stop before reporting it to HR (but if I never did tell them to stop, that person won''t get fired...HR just acts as a mediator at that point). It doesn''t even have to be something that was forwarded just to me.

You know what else counts??? If someone has a picture of themselves on their desk in a bikini and a person is offended, they can report it to HR.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 5/14/2009 12:53:12 PM
Author: musey

Just for argument''s sake: offensive, or harassment?

I don''t work in an office environment so I''m a little offensive on the line between the two. I get forwarded emails from time to time with jokes or videos that make me turn up my nose, stuff I''d email the person back and say ''EW, why did you send that to me?? DON''T in the future, thanks!'' about, and I''d feel it was offensive - but I wouldn''t feel sexually harassed.

I think in order for me to feel sexually harassed, it would need to be about me, like the mechanic you were talking about. I would definitely feel harassed in that situation

yuck.

Okay, yeah, after reading your post, I agree the comments would have to be about me before it became harrassment. I don''t work in an office, either, so rarely does anything along that line happen! All the emails I get are from friends/family! Nothing weird or kinky.

When that mechanic was talking like that, I was thinking the whole time that he works around men far too much and has lost touch with reality!

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Date: 5/14/2009 11:13:28 AM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
for me it''s anything that makes me uncomfortable. It doesn''t have to be overtly sexual in nature, we all know the ''icky'' feeling you get when it happens...

+1

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 5/14/2009 1:00:21 PM
Author: fieryred33143

You know what else counts??? If someone has a picture of themselves on their desk in a bikini and a person is offended, they can report it to HR.

Who would put a photo of themself in a bikini on their own desk??? That is just bizarre.

Like Musey, I don't work in an office so I'm totally oblivious to customs in that environment. The only photos I'd put up would be those of my cat! When I was recently promised a job, I was told never to bring up my kids because one of the owners doesn't like kids. Should I put photos of them up in their swim trunks to bug him?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/14/2009 12:47:47 PM
Author: MC
Everyone has a difference idea of ''comfort level,'' so to give an idea of what would over the line for me: A man attempting to touch me in any way. . .even on the arm as a light tap! Saying anything graphic in nature, photos, or emails, which describe anything about body or sex, could be offensive.

There is a mechanic who does a great job with my car, but every time I see him, he says offensive things. He told me I have a ''great body,'' instead of focusing on my car and the noise it was making. He made hand gestures about doing when men do (you know)! There was a bunch more stuff. All his employees are male. Wonder why!

he do prefer giving you a tuneup instead of the car.

 

[Lauren8211]

Date: 5/14/2009 1:03:29 PM
Author: MC

Date: 5/14/2009 1:00:21 PM
Author: fieryred33143

You know what else counts??? If someone has a picture of themselves on their desk in a bikini and a person is offended, they can report it to HR.

Who would put a photo of themself in a bikini on their own desk??? That is just bizarre.

Like Musey, I don''t work in an office so I''m totally oblivious to customs in that environment. The only photos I''d put up would be those of my cat! When I was recently promised a job, I was told never to bring up my kids because one of the owners doesn''t like kids. Should I put photos of them up in their swim trunks to bug him?

Wait.... you guys dont have one?

 

[Lauren8211]

Date: 5/14/2009 11:41:03 AM
Author: meresal

Date: 5/14/2009 11:13:28 AM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
for me it's anything that makes me uncomfortable. It doesn't have to be overtly sexual in nature, we all know the 'icky' feeling you get when it happens...

ITA... and with elle about repeated bahavior after being approached before. however, what about when someone else's actions towards other people makes you uncomfortable.

Our sales guy will go around giving shoulder rubs to some of the women in the office. It TOTALLY weirds me out. He has one of those soft slow-spoken voices, and combine that with words of encouragment, and a shoulder rub...

You bring up a good point, Mere!

I guess you have to consider what is really offensive, and what is you just having a particular issue. If someone is touching someone else, just because it makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean someone should get in trouble for it.

He's not doing anything offensive (shoulder rubbing isnt really sexual in general), technically, and he's not doing anything to you specifically if he's not touching you... so I'd just deal with it on my way.

Same with someone making a food in the office that has a strong scent you can't stand. I mean, what they're doing isn't wrong, it just bugs you personally, so you kind of have to pick your battles, I guess?

 

[Kelli]

Date: 5/14/2009 12:42:23 PM
Author: musey
Honestly, anything that I''ve explicitly told the person I''m uncomfortable with but they persist, OR something that is clearly over ANYONE''S line (like touching in an inappropriate way, extremely sexual comments, etc.).

I''m not generally bothered by vaguely sexual remarks because I was raised in a very open/joking environment in that regard. I once bought a pair of dance pants with two zippers in the front, and my dad said ''Ooh, easy access!''

I was 12, by the way. It was just his way of joking - but I had to make it clear on MANY an occasion that while he may be able to do that with his own family, doing that to my friends was NOT OKAY under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Actually, my dad had a sexual harassment complaint at work one time, there was a whole to-do about it and he was put on probation (not allowed to talk to that group of people or something). He''d told a dirty joke to one of the nurses, and she''d taken offense to it. The docs joke like that all the time so he didn''t even think twice about interacting with the nurses in the same way.

THAT is the kind of nonsense that I can''t stand. A dirty joke being sexual harrassment? Rediculous.

 

[Kelli]

For me to consider something harrassment, it would have to be directed at ME PERSONALLY, and would have to make me ACTUALLY feel threatened. Office jokes and the like don''t count. And if someone was saying something to bother me, I''d probably say something to them before I reported it.

Of course, inappropriate touching would never be tolerated. But that means blatant sexual touching, not touching my arm or rubbing shoulders. I get creeped out by that stuff too, but I always find a way to keep my distance or tell them I''m uncomfortable before I decide I''m being harrassed. I don''t think touching someone''s arm or shoulders is inappropriate unless they''ve already been made aware that it makes the person uncomfortable. If that''s the case and they keep it up, by all means report them.

My fiancee has to go through all this "sensitivity training" as part of his work and I swear you just have to walk around on eggshells all day. It''s rediculous what some people are offended by.

 

[musey]

Date: 5/14/2009 2:30:44 PM
Author: Kelli

Date: 5/14/2009 12:42:23 PM
Author: musey
Honestly, anything that I''ve explicitly told the person I''m uncomfortable with but they persist, OR something that is clearly over ANYONE''S line (like touching in an inappropriate way, extremely sexual comments, etc.).

I''m not generally bothered by vaguely sexual remarks because I was raised in a very open/joking environment in that regard. I once bought a pair of dance pants with two zippers in the front, and my dad said ''Ooh, easy access!''

I was 12, by the way. It was just his way of joking - but I had to make it clear on MANY an occasion that while he may be able to do that with his own family, doing that to my friends was NOT OKAY under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Actually, my dad had a sexual harassment complaint at work one time, there was a whole to-do about it and he was put on probation (not allowed to talk to that group of people or something). He''d told a dirty joke to one of the nurses, and she''d taken offense to it. The docs joke like that all the time so he didn''t even think twice about interacting with the nurses in the same way.

THAT is the kind of nonsense that I can''t stand. A dirty joke being sexual harrassment? Rediculous.

I thought so too, but thought maybe I was just being insensitive or not aware of expectations in that environment

he was very upset by it for quite a long time, and considers it a major stain on his ''record.''

I think that''s the line between harassment and offensive behaviour that I was asking about. This nurse was not the subject of his inappropriate behaviour, she was just being told a joke that she found inappropriate (apparently massively so). He told me the joke and I didn''t see the big deal, even as a teenager

I thought it was gross, and didn''t see the humor in it, but didn''t feel offended by it (much less felt harassed). I don''t know.

I personally would have just said "Ew, gross, Dr. Museysdad, skip me the next time you''re making the dirty joke rounds."

 

[courtney5638]

Date: 5/14/2009 2:48:02 PM
Author: Kelli
For me to consider something harrassment, it would have to be directed at ME PERSONALLY, and would have to make me ACTUALLY feel threatened. Office jokes and the like don''t count. And if someone was saying something to bother me, I''d probably say something to them before I reported it.

Of course, inappropriate touching would never be tolerated. But that means blatant sexual touching, not touching my arm or rubbing shoulders. I get creeped out by that stuff too, but I always find a way to keep my distance or tell them I''m uncomfortable before I decide I''m being harrassed. I don''t think touching someone''s arm or shoulders is inappropriate unless they''ve already been made aware that it makes the person uncomfortable. If that''s the case and they keep it up, by all means report them.

My fiancee has to go through all this ''sensitivity training'' as part of his work and I swear you just have to walk around on eggshells all day. It''s rediculous what some people are offended by.

I agree with Kelli. I think it would have to be something that made me feel uncomfortable, but was directed specifically at me. If it was just something that made me feel uncomfortable, I would be offended, but I don''t think that I would consider that harassment.

 

[musey]

Re: bikini pictures and such, I agree that it should be O.K. to ask someone not to display something that makes you uncomfortable - whatever it may be (anyone remember the poster of the babies dressed as grownups in The Office?

). If your poster of a lion chasing a gazelle with a "circle of life" caption irritates my vegan sensibilities, then I should be justified in asking if you''d mind taking it down because I find it distracting/upsetting and it hampers my work performance. But it should be a conversation between you and me, not you and me by way of HR. Just my opinion, and I know that''s not really a reasonable expectation for all work situations.

(For the record, I am not vegan and wouldn''t be offended by such a poster, I was just trying to think of a more harmless example.)

As good a resource as HR is, I think that in some cases it''s reduced our need (and therefore development of our ability) to communicate and pursue conflict resolution on our own.

 

[musey]

While we''re talking about the line between harassment and offensive behaviour, here are the definitions from wiktionary:

To harass
to put excessive burdens upon; to subject to anxieties
To annoy endlessly or systematically; to molest
To fatigue or to tire with repeated and exhausting efforts

To offend
To hurt the feelings of; to displease; to make angry; to insult.


To me, the difference is that I can be passively offended (by someone''s action not directed at me), but I cannot be passively harassed (they must be directing their action at me). Not that that''s the official difference, just how I separate it in my mind.

 

[CurlySue]

Date: 5/14/2009 2:53:47 PM
Author: musey
Re: bikini pictures and such, I agree that it should be O.K. to ask someone not to display something that makes you uncomfortable - whatever it may be (anyone remember the poster of the babies dressed as grownups in The Office?

). If your poster of a lion chasing a gazelle with a ''circle of life'' caption irritates my vegan sensibilities, then I should be justified in asking if you''d mind taking it down because I find it distracting/upsetting and it hampers my work performance. But it should be a conversation between you and me, not you and me by way of HR. Just my opinion, and I know that''s not really a reasonable expectation for all work situations.

(For the record, I am not vegan and wouldn''t be offended by such a poster, I was just trying to think of a more harmless example.)

As good a resource as HR is, I think that in some cases it''s reduced our need (and therefore development of our ability) to communicate and pursue conflict resolution on our own.

100% agree with this.

There are so many times I''ve heard people complaining about the behavior of a co-worker.... yet they have never once taken the time to respectfully sit down with the person to tell them how that behavior is impacting others.

Someone once was complaining about how a colleague PARKED THEIR CAR. Said the woman parked it too crookedly, took up too much space, and how "everyone" was annoyed by it. I said, "Uh, have you or anyone else mentioned anything to her about it? Maybe if you just say something to her nicely, she''ll either work on her parking or park in a spot at the far end of the lot." The complaining person said they hadn''t talked to her and didn''t feel comfortable, so instead they just asked their boss to talk to her about it.

Seriously? Is that conversation THAT difficult to have with someone??

Granted, this example is not the same as a situation in which someone feels offended or harrassed... but still!!

 

[HollyS]

I draw the line at Quid Pro Quo. I will not trade sex for advancement. And I would probably give serious thought to filing a lawsuit.

People''s little comments, wolf whistles, tacky girlie calendars or screen savers don''t faze me. I find those men to be rather juvenile and mostly stupid, and that often works to my advantage. And it certainly lets me know up front what they''re made of. Kind of separates the boys from the men here in the corporate world.

 

[LGK]

When I was 17 & working at a big discount retailer (like Target, but lower end!) there were four managers and a plethora of assistant managers, and a bunch of . (That was an interesting experience all around in fact.)

The 60 something manager grabbed my butt once, *definitely* not on accident, it was um, quite thorough. At 17, I didn''t think to report him or do anything beyond think "ew gross" and try to avoid him. He also liked to hover around me and comment on my appearance, a lot.

The 20 something assistant manager propositioned me in a stockroom... that, I laughed off and didn''t think much of it- in fact I had so much going on that particular day that the incident was far, far down on the list of things I was concerned about that day. (Actually, that was the last day I''ve ever seen my father come to think of it.) The younger assistant manager later got fired for sexual harassment- but again, it wasn''t me who reported it, it was another girl about my age. Then she got engaged to him him, go figure.

Of the two, I was wayyyy more icked by the butt-groping; and indeed I''d call that full-on sexual harassment, and as an adult if someone did that to me now, I''d react a lot more than I did at 17, and report it. The younger guy was (reasonably) polite and didn''t make me feel like my job was on the line or anything- in fact, after I turned him down, he left me alone after that and that was the end of it. It''s hard to judge how I''d react as an adult to the second incident- again, I''d probably take it less lightly but since I was more amused than squicked at the time, it''s hard to tell what I''d do now. While he was breaking rules (and intent on breaking some laws too!) I dunno if it was technically sexual harassment too. I''d lean towards not, but I''m not super sensitive to these things either.

 

[HollyS]

Butt grabbing is WAY over the line. Always report physical contact that is unwelcome and/or sexual.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/14/2009 1:06:34 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 5/14/2009 1:03:29 PM
Author: MC

Date: 5/14/2009 1:00:21 PM
Author: fieryred33143

You know what else counts??? If someone has a picture of themselves on their desk in a bikini and a person is offended, they can report it to HR.

Who would put a photo of themself in a bikini on their own desk??? That is just bizarre.

Like Musey, I don''t work in an office so I''m totally oblivious to customs in that environment. The only photos I''d put up would be those of my cat! When I was recently promised a job, I was told never to bring up my kids because one of the owners doesn''t like kids. Should I put photos of them up in their swim trunks to bug him?

Wait.... you guys dont have one?

elle

go ahead and post your pix

i wouldn''t feel offended.