What are your thoughts on how government is handling COVID-19

[arkieb1]

@voce & @Dancing Fire - my argument is lift restrictions way too soon as Trump seems to be indicating he will (who knows if he will or not I don't think he knows what he is going to do on a day to day basis) and it will cost more people's lives.

I fully comprehend that it's a balancing act, one that I don't think Trump is capable of handling particularly well. If left unchecked you may save the middle class but instead wipe out a generation of elderly people and probably a lot of unfit unhealthy middle aged ones as well. I have little faith that Trump is any more capable of managing your economy well in such a crisis than he was at slowing the spread and reducing the overall number of deaths, some countries did that well some did not, yours is a textbook example of what not to do.

 

[missy]

@voce & @Dancing Fire - my argument is lift restrictions way too soon as Trump seems to be indicating he will (who knows if he will or not I don't think he knows what he is going to do on a day to day basis) and it will cost more people's lives.

I fully comprehend that it's a balancing act, one that I don't think Trump is capable of handling particularly well. If left unchecked you may save the middle class but instead wipe out a generation of elderly people and probably a lot of unfit unhealthy middle aged ones as well.

It's not just unhealthy middle aged people nor the elderly that are being killed by this virus. It can be random and it has killed healthy individuals both young and middle age. There is much we just don't know yet as it is such a new disease.

How does the coronavirus kill?

Uncertainty is hampering doctors’ ability to choose treatments.

www.nature.com

Why does Covid-19 kill some young, healthy people—and spare others?

Most young healthy adults who contract the new coronavirus experience mild symptoms, yet data shows a growing number are suddenly dying from Covid-19—and health experts are scrambling to figure out why the disease is so deadly for some, but not others.

www.advisory.com

 

[arkieb1]

@missy - yes that is entirely true but statistically it kills more elderly and unhealthy middle aged than anyone else. It is true it has killed babies, children, people in their 20s and 30s, and people with no previous medical conditions, but they are in the lower % bracket, so if your countries eases the restrictions too soon, everyone goes back to work to save the economy, we are talking about the odds of surviving something that most people will end up being exposed to.

If easing the restrictions in order to save your economy occurs (which eventually it will) people's chances of getting the disease if the number of new cases is not at zero when that occurs will then start to rise, that means people's risk of getting the disease and dying from it becomes a statistic. Which sadly sucks if any person or anyone they know is one of those statistics.

 

[voce]

@missy and everyone--my fear is that the virus is evolving into different strains. Depending on who you ask, there's 2-5 strains of coronavirus in this pandemic, and just as there's many strains of flu so that you can get sick multiple times with the flu in the same season, I'm worried immunity to one strain won't mean immunity to other strains. I hope this is just my paranoia, but we still lack definitive knowledge on this new disease.

Edited so that my dumb phone doesn't auto-"correct" evolving to nearing.

 

[voce]

@missy
If easing the restrictions in order to save your economy occurs (which eventually it will) people's chances of getting the disease if the number of new cases is not at zero when that occurs will then start to rise, that means people's risk of getting the disease and dying from it becomes a statistic. Which sadly sucks if you or anyone you know is one of those statistics.

I want to point out that even with the restrictions in place the new cases will not be zero because at a minimum people need food water and utilities. There are people still needing to go out to fulfill these needs to enable the rest of the population to stay at home.

 

[arkieb1]

I want to point out that even with the restrictions in place the new cases will not be zero because at a minimum people need food water and utilities. There are people still needing to go out to fulfill these needs to enable the rest of the population to stay at home.

Not in your country any time soon, in mine it will eventually get to zero, people are still getting food, water and utilities. In Wuhan it eventually got to zero but they had a 60 day full lockdown to get there, which I don't believe the US would ever do.

The "balancing act" is literally lives versus your economy. Only someone that listens to medical, economic and other advise and can read and comprehend data to a competent level is going to have half a chance at successfully pinpointing when the best time will be. I don't believe Trump is going to do that successfully.

It wasn't just Trump that has cost people's lives so far, Spain, Italy, the UK, a number of countries for various reasons acted too slowly and didn't fully comprehend what this virus could do until a number of people started dying. Other places like India, many Asian countries all with dense large populations did "get" it, they are managing their economies and their overall death rates far far better than other countries like the US did.

 

[Dancing Fire]

@voce & @Dancing Fire - my argument is lift restrictions way too soon as Trump seems to be indicating he will (who knows if he will or not I don't think he knows what he is going to do on a day to day basis) and it will cost more people's lives.

So what would you suggest Trump to do?. Shut down our country for 3 more months?. How are people gonna survive w/o going back to work?

 

[missy]

@missy - yes that is entirely true but statistically it kills more elderly and unhealthy middle aged than anyone else. It is true it has killed babies, children, people in their 20s and 30s, and people with no previous medical conditions, but they are in the lower % bracket, so if your countries eases the restrictions too soon, everyone goes back to work to save the economy, we are talking about the odds of surviving something that most people will end up being exposed to.

If easing the restrictions in order to save your economy occurs (which eventually it will) people's chances of getting the disease if the number of new cases is not at zero when that occurs will then start to rise, that means people's risk of getting the disease and dying from it becomes a statistic. Which sadly sucks if any person or anyone they know is one of those statistics.

Yeah statistics are just that. Statistics. And if you are the one that falls outside those statistics little good it does.

I know we have to reach a compromise but we are not yet at the point we can open things back up and as I wrote before we should learn from past countries mistakes and successes regarding Covid 19.

@missy and everyone--my fear is that the virus is nearing into different strains. Depending on who you ask, there's 2-5 strains of coronavirus in this pandemic, and just as there's many strains of flu so that you can get sick multiple times with the flu in the same season, I'm worried immunity to one strain won't mean immunity to other strains. I hope this is just my paranoia, but we still lack definitive knowledge on this new disease.

Yes we don't know a lot still about this very new disease. I just posted some new info in the potential treatment thread that looks promising. If we can cut through all the red tape and get it to those who need this med.

Not in your country any time soon, in mine it will eventually get to zero, people are still getting food, water and utilities. In Wuhan it eventually got to zero but they had a 60 day full lockdown to get there, which I don't believe the US would ever do.

The "balancing act" is literally lives versus your economy. Only someone that listens to medical, economic and other advise and can read and comprehend data to a competent level is going to have half a chance at successfully pinpointing when the best time will be. I don't believe Trump is going to do that successfully.

It wasn't just Trump that has cost people's lives so far, Spain, Italy, the UK, a number of countries for various reasons acted too slowly and didn't fully comprehend what this virus could do until a number of people started dying. Other places like India, many Asian countries all with dense large populations did "get" it, they are managing their economies and their overall death rates far far better than other countries like the US did.

Yup we must learn from all the countries who went before us but sadly I agree. The USA under Trump isn't going to do what is necessary to save the maximum number of lives possible. And that, IMO, *is* a travesty.

 

[arkieb1]

So what would you suggest Trump to do?. Shut down our country for 3 more months?. How are people gonna survive w/o going back to work?

You might not have a choice. It's a virus, it doesn't care about the economy. Australia is paying companies wages to keep workers on the books and in work, even though they are not physically going to work. Yes I understand that is only sustainable for a certain period of time, yes I understand that your children, grandchildren and mine will be paying for it for decades to come.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Not in your country any time soon, in mine it will eventually get to zero, people are still getting food, water and utilities. In Wuhan it eventually got to zero but they had a 60 day full lockdown to get there, which I don't believe the US would ever do.

Only the left wing media would believe such BS coming out of China. Do you really believe that only 3500 people die in China?. The media blames Trump rather than China for this virus..

 

[Batgirl76]

You can’t compromise with a virus. The virus will win every time.

 

[voce]

Only the left wing media would believe such BS coming out of China. Do you really believe that only 3500 people die in China?. The media blames Trump rather than China for this virus..

Just because China has culpability doesn't mean Trump doesn't have culpability. I mean, to be a world leader, have information briefed to you by the CIA every morning etc. means you can't believe everything other world leaders are saying if you're listening to your advisors. I'm not buying the naïveté excuse that he believed China so it's all China's fault.

The more there is that China is covering up, the less likely the CIA didn't report it to Trump, and so the more Trump is culpable for. That's what's logical.

There will always be people who are lapping up Trump's cult of personality, ready to deflect blame for him. I don't attribute every thing that goes wrong to Trump, but neither do I worship him as an American hero. As I've said before, I don't think Trump's qualitatively doing anything differently from how the Chinese government's handled the virus. He has an unapologetic attitude. The main difference I can think of is that here, unlike in China, you cannot hide and bury the numbers.

If pointing fingers at China and flipping China off cures people from the virus, I would applaud you and join. As it doesn't, however, the danger is that by automatically deflecting all blame to China you are not paying attention to what the US is doing wrong and missing more opportunities for constructive change in what the US is doing to save more lives.

 

[Dancing Fire]

If pointing fingers at China and flipping China off cures people from the virus, I would applaud you and join. As it doesn't, however, the danger is that by automatically deflecting all blame to China you are not paying attention to what the US is doing wrong and missing more opportunities for constructive change in what the US is doing to save more lives.

What would you like to see from our government at this point?

 

[missy]

From Medscape:

Will Antibody Tests Help Us Leave Quarantine?
Debbie Koenig
April 13, 2020


"
With more than 90% of the country unable to leave home for work or school, officials have said one thing might help us get back to normal: a rapid blood test to see if someone has developed immunity to COVID-19.

Serologic tests, as they're called, look for antibodies in the blood. Antibodies develop when you've been exposed to a particular infection, and experts believe many COVID-19 cases are so mild people may not know they had it. That means there's a chance a significant number of us have developed antibodies already.

Hoping to discover just how widespread the virus has become, last week the National Institutes of Health (NIH) announced they're looking for 10,000 volunteers with no confirmed history or current symptoms of COVID-19. Researchers want to see how many have antibodies in their blood.


"We don't currently have good numbers for the numbers of people who are infected now, much less people who were infected before who were never tested," Angela Rasmussen, MD, a virologist at Columbia University in New York, told The New York Times. "So it's really important from an epidemiological perspective to do these types of serology assays."

The NIH is far from the only organization working on this. In March, the FDAannounced a policy that would allow commercial labs meeting certain conditions to market their tests without waiting for the FDA approval known as an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA). More than 70 of those tests are on the horizon. Only one test has received an EUA.

"Within a period of a week or so, we're going to have a rather large number of tests that are available," Anthony Fauci, MD, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, recently told CNN.

But experts warn that the presence of antibodies alone doesn't necessarily indicate you're cleared to reenter the world. First of all, there are several types of antibodies. Only a subset known as neutralizing antibodies can block the virus.




"We don't know which antibody response neutralizes the virus," says Joseph Vinetz, MD, a professor of infectious diseases at Yale University. "Once you have an antibody test, you have to study people with antibody responses for their risk for getting a new infection."

That won't happen, he says, until enough people who test positive for antibodies return to the workforce — and then either get reinfected or don't. It's a waiting game.

"If the governor of a state says, 'We have an antibody test, I can release people back to work,' the data don't really support that at this point," Vinetz says. "We'll find out what happens when policy gets balanced against science."

Then there's the magnitude of the challenge of testing everybody. With more than 300 million people in the US, the 3 million diagnostic tests performed to date represent barely 1% percent of the population. On Saturday, Admiral Brett Giroir, the testing "czar" on Trump's coronavirus task force, told Bloomberg News that by May the country should be "in the ballpark" of capacity for widespread diagnostic and antibody testing.


Unreliable tests may pose another problem. In the UK, Spain, and elsewhere, false test results have dashed hopes for a quick, accurate test. And in the US, the FDA's decision to relax oversight for antibody tests may backfire.


"It really has created a mess that's going to take a while to clean up," Eric Blank, DrPH, senior director at the Association for Public Health Laboratories, told ABC News. "In the meantime, you've got a lot of companies marketing a lot of stuff and nobody has any idea of how good it is."


For now, at least, no test can tell you if you're safe to go back to your regular daily life. No testing company has made enough tests to garner large-scale results. And though you may see tests claiming otherwise, none has been specifically approved by the FDA.


"If you see [tests] on the internet, do not buy them until we can give you a test that's reliable for all Americans," Deborah Birx, MD, coordinator of the White House coronavirus task force, said at a recent briefing.


Given all the uncertainty surrounding antibody tests, "what we really need is a pill that reduces the amount of time that somebody is ill or infectious for other people, or that might prevent people from getting infected to begin with," Vinetz says. The Yale School of Medicine, where he works, and Yale New Haven Health System are working on that. They're establishing a drive-through COVID-19 clinical research platform for patients with mild or asymptomatic cases, which Vinetz hopes will open in the next few weeks. Those who test positive will be given either an experimental antiviral drug or a placebo, then asked to return for daily swabs for 1 week to check the amount of the virus in their throats, with weekly monitoring after that.


Vinetz anticipates having preliminary results within 2 weeks of the platform launching.


"Right now, people can have this virus for a couple of weeks," Vinetz says. "What if you were only infectious for 2 days? If a drug really kills the virus, not only can you treat people who have the infection, if the drug is safe, you can give it to people as prophylaxis."

"

 

[arkieb1]

Only the left wing media would believe such BS coming out of China. Do you really believe that only 3500 people die in China?. The media blames Trump rather than China for this virus..

No I don't believe that only that many people in China died but I do believe they enforced a complete lockdown in places like Wuhan for 60 days because an Aussie journalist was there and was allowed to report on it.

"The media blames Trump rather than China for the virus", you seem to be defending Trump at every available opportunity for his inaction, lack of initial understand and direct culpability in killing Americans by allowing the virus to spread unchecked to a point where in places like New York, hospitals & ICUs had little to no chance of coping with the numbers of critically ill patients.

States that are doing better understand that while they cannot stop the virus at this point in time, that slowing the spread down enough so that hospitals and ICUs do not become inundated IS saving lives.

Donald Trump is wrong, the economic hit of the coronavirus will last for years

Consumer and business spending will stay cautious but the state can fill the gap. We must not turn off the taps too early, like in 2010

www.theguardian.com

The last paragraph of that article sums it up perfectly;

"The length of the downturn will depend above all on our success at containing the coronavirus and mitigating its effects. And that success will hinge, in turn, on our cohesiveness as a society and on the quality of our leadership. For Americans, that is not a very hopeful note to end on."

 

[AGBF]

How do you like Trump's interpretation of how federal and state rights are divided? It was an interesting news briefing for anyone who has an understanding of how the government is supposed to work.

 

[Dancing Fire]

"The media blames Trump rather than China for the virus", you seem to be defending Trump at every available opportunity for his inaction, lack of initial understand and direct culpability in killing Americans by allowing the virus to spread unchecked to a point where in places like New York, hospitals & ICUs had little to no chance of coping with the numbers of critically ill patients.

So the NY governor bear zero responsibility? of course not since he is a Dem.

 

[voce]

What would you like to see from our government at this point?

More support and delegation of resources to capable sectors of industry who can help in combating the disease (pharma, mask and ventilator makers) and less gesturing and bristling whenever an "underling" like Dr. Fauci has said something more nuanced that isn't 100% in line with what you say. Honestly, if Dr. Fauci gets fired, it would be an injustice.

The US is supposed to be a meritocracy where you are rewarded for your accomplishments and are allowed to hold different perspectives. The way Trump is running things, there is little diversity of perspective, which is a sign of weaker leadership and leads to less optimal critical decision making, aka groupthink, which imo has got to have played a role in how long it took his administration to realize the severity of the problem.

The way Trump is running his administration, well, that's just my understanding of exactly how Chinese companies and bureaucracy work. Sorry to break your bubble, DF, but have you ever considered Trump is running his administration exactly how a Chinese politician might? Transactional pragmatism, focus on the economy above all else, and promoting people based on how well they're able to pander to your own views and how willing they are to take the fall on behalf of you. All that is similar to how Chinese politicians behave. This is the vibe Trump gives a lot of us, even if you are worshipping him as a hero. I'm an equal opportunity criticizer, but I can't recall reading a single post where you have criticized Trump.

 

[missy]

So 7 eastern states are working together on figuring out when to reopen.

‘Worst Is Over,’ Cuomo Says as 7 States Ally to Reopen Economy (Published 2020)

The announcement of a team effort to ease restrictions that have halted most aspects of life coincided with hopefuls signs about the coronavirus’s spread.

www.nytimes.com

"The governors, speaking on a conference call, emphasized the importance of acting in concert so that the actions of one state did not inadvertently hurt another, or cause the outbreak to flare again."

So the NY governor bear zero responsibility? of course not since he is a Dem.

@Dancing Fire c'mon no one here gives the Dems a free pass and condemns all the Republicans.

 

[missy]

So the NY governor bear zero responsibility? of course not since he is a Dem.

Why New York has been hit so hard by coronavirus

New York state reached a tragic milestone this week: It now has more Covid-19 patients than any country in the world, aside from the United States.

www.cnn.com

Sadly, the likeliest explanation for the high death rate, though, is the chronically inadequate health care given to minorities and the poor throughout New York City, as in the rest of the country. New York City and New York state have only now released the race distribution of cases and deaths, as well as by zip code, a surrogate for poverty rates. It is clear that severe disease has not been distributed equally by race and ethnicity.
Black and Hispanic New Yorkers represent 51% of the city's population, yet account for 62% of Covid-19 deaths. They have twice the rate of death compared with whites, when adjusted for age. This likely is due to both a higher proportion of black and Hispanic New Yorkers being diagnosed with severe disease and a higher rate of death among those who are known to be infected.
This disparity likely is the result of several factors. Co-morbid conditions, such as hypertension and diabetes, are strongly associated with death from Covid-19 and are more common in black and Hispanic communities. But what causes high rates of poorly controlled hypertension and diabetes? Lack of appropriate health care. People who cannot easily find good health care for reasons of money, time, location, or trust may be more likely to stay at home undiagnosed and spread the virus — as well as experience potentially fatal delays in diagnosis and treatment.

 

[AGBF]

The US is supposed to be a meritocracy where you are rewarded for your accomplishments

I do not believe it has ever really been a meritocracy. The people (white, landowning men) were supposed to be allowed to achieve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in the United States. Nowhere was it written that the best would be the most successful. Robber barons did very well in the 1890's...just off the top of my head.

 

[Dancing Fire]

More support and delegation of resources to capable sectors of industry who can help in combating the disease (pharma, mask and ventilator makers) and less gesturing and bristling whenever an "underling" like Dr. Fauci has said something more nuanced that isn't 100% in line with what you say. Honestly, if Dr. Fauci gets fired, it would be an injustice.

So let Dr. Fauci to decide when to reopen our country?

 

[voce]

So let Dr. Fauci to decide when to reopen our country?

Fauci doesn't have the right to make that decision, even if he doesn't get fired.

I mean, he's just another individual, expressing his (expert) opinion. If you are a leader who feels threatened each and every time someone holds a differing view on things and feel the need to silence all dissenters by firing any dissenters, then I think that means you're a weak individual who can't handle criticism, and who is certainly not going to have the self awareness to be self critical and seek improvement. Emphasis: weak character.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Trump banned Chinese flights from China in late Jan. but of course the left "yell racist"!.

Turns out it was an irrelevant gesture. As so many of his gestures are.
We know now that the majority of infections in this country originated in Europe. He kept those flights open allowing it to spread freely.
He is displaying a supreme level of continued incompetence on all fronts.
It is not, however, because he is Republican. It is because he's ignorant, and outmatched by nature itself. He is ill equipped and should step aside to let the experts handle this. If he loved America, he would.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Turns out it was an irrelevant gesture. As so many of his gestures are.
We know now that the majority of infections in this country originated in Europe. He kept those flights open allowing it to spread freely.

Yup, He should have had banned all European flights too, but if he did you know what the left would had said...

 

[Karl_K]

to let the experts handle this.

Which experts? the useless bureaucrats that have totally dropped the ball every time so far?

 

[arkieb1]

So the NY governor bear zero responsibility? of course not since he is a Dem.

I'm an Aussie I actually had NO idea which side of politics he was on, I did see the poor guy asking Trumps administration for more ventilators only to be denied.... Our government in Australia is conservative, I didn't vote for them, they are on your side of politics and they have done an awesome intelligent job at containing it compared to the US. So your point is moot.

@voce - I agree, as it turns out the way the virus is being handled by a narcissist (Trump) and a communist dictator (China) isn't that dissimilar, the only difference is that the media is allowed to pick apart what the US and for that matter the UK and other places is doing wrong.

You don't seem to be getting it DF, I have NO issues with conservatives I have a BIG issue with a leader who cannot make intelligent informed critical decisions to achieve the best outcome for their country. He isn't the only world leader at the moment scoring a minus on their report card. There are leaders that should be removed in a number of countries for mishandling this, from both sides of politics.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Which experts? the useless bureaucrats that have totally dropped the ball every time so far?

Which bureaucrats are those? They are all his appointees.
No, the scientists he likes to silence and fire. Maybe the pandemic teams he recently disbanded.
His declaration today that he can supersede state's rights should be terrifying to every American.

 

[Calliecake]

Today’s press briefing was something to see. Trump acted unhinged. It’s embarrassing to watch a US President have so little self control. He thinks he is King.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Today’s press briefing was something to see. Trump acted unhinged. It’s embarrassing to watch a US President have so little self control. He thinks he is King.

Precisely, an international embarrassment. He will find he is wrong.
It will interesting to see if conservative America reacts to his dictatorial declaration; or, if their continual patriotic state's rights honking is just so much bullshit. That's as big government as it gets.
If they don't condemn him, they cease to be conservatives.