"Well-cut stones of lower colours face up colourless"

[FB.]

Really?

I just did some comparisons of three well-cut 1ct stones, all graded by GIA. I placed them side-by-side in a variety of light conditions, starting with the first pictures in a dull room and gradually moving into sunlight.
As you will see from the pictures, none of them is badly cut - no dark tables, for example. They are all nice, bright stones that don''t suffer much leakage.

In all pictures, the centre stone is the D, with the H and I on either side, for comparison. My "other half" vetted the pictures compared to what could be seen by eye and agrees that they are a close representation of the true appearance.

Mediocre-quality pictures to follow in a few minutes.

 

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Pic 1

 

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Pic 2

 

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Pic 3

 

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Pic 4

 

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Pic 5

 

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Pic 6

 

[stone-cold11]

Care to give more information on the proportion of the stone instead of just saying oh this is a good cut?

 

[FB.]

I don't have all the details to hand as the certs and appraisal papers are hidden away somewhere (and Pricescope generally doesn't accept proportions as a guide of well-cut anyway), but the dimensions are 1A, 1B or 2A on the AGA cut scales.

More pictures coming in a moment.
Some of the following pictures show how well they can "face-up" just as white as a "D", but also how the body colour can be seen in certain conditions - especially when you're not viewing from directly overhead and when the light entering the stone is not powerful.
A new stone has appeared: a 0.5ct D, which is the leftmost stone in most of the new pictures. Otherwise, the larger 1ct stones remain in the same order as before.

 

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[Gleam]

Maybe it''s just me, but I cannot for the life of me gather any visual information from these small, blurry photos.

Yes, lower quality stones will show color when set side by side with a D-color stone with all other specs being equal. I mean, nobody is going to argue with that, are they?

But diamonds in "real life" outside a jewelry store, are not set out side by side with other diamonds. What matters to me is how good the stone looks set in a ring, on my finger. Diamonds mostly exist in a vacuum once it''s on your finger. You''re not walking around with a D-color diamond set next to an H, and nobody but a true expert will be able to pinpoint a diamond''s grade based on casual glances.

 

[elle_chris]

As the pics are very blurry, it''s impossible to tell anything other than yes, the D looks whiter than the H and I in the first picture. As far as cut, can''t tell a thing. I will though say that my H and I stones do NOT look like your H and I. Yours look more like my K on an overcast rainy day. Even then, my K does not have that much of a tint.
Who graded these stones?

Also, in pic 6 the stone on the left looks to be set in yellow gold which in my opinion, is enhancing the "tinit" in the diamond.

But no one here claims that H and I stones look colorless. We say they look white from the top, and a properly graded stone will look white. Again, not colorless but white.

Here''s my 1ct K. Not the best pic but you can see the tint. I wasn''t standing near a window but it was taken with natural daylight coming through my north facing window. I don''t understand why it looks whiter to me than your H and I stones if yours are properly graded.

 

[FB.]

Gleam

I apologise for the mediocre photos and I wish that I had a camera more suited to close-up shots, but my intention was to show the colour perception - and it is possible to see a difference - face-up - in certain normal lighting conditions.

The impression that I get from reading these forums is that you can buy a well-cut J and expect it to look exactly the same as a well-cut D in any environment and that any money spent above H colour is an utter waste - and that even the sharpest eyes would struggle to see the difference when face-up.
I disagree.
That is not my experience; even when I view them face-up, I can see (and so can the camera) variable -but noticeable- amounts of yellow colour in "near-colourless" stones, when compared to colourless stones, in a number of light conditions.

I have argued on here in the past (and caused some unintended bad feelings among members) because a large number of people seem to suggest that cut is the only thing that matters......and that a super-ideal cut guarantees no chance of seeing any trace of yellow, face-up, in a lower-colour stone.

This site seems heavily skewed towards lower colours - and maybe I'll get deleted for daring to go against the grain or being a "trouble-maker" - but while lower colours may suit some people, I regard the sheer weight of information on lower colours as potentiallty misleading and I wanted to post a counter argument, putting forward a case for the better colour grades.

If I was a total diamond newbie looking for info from this site, I would draw the conclusion that a super-ideal J colour is the way to go. But having seen "near colourless" side-by-side with "colourless", I think that I would soon find myself fretting over the tints that could be seen in the stone in certain everyday light conditions, or from angles that weren't directly overhead and without dazzling amounts of light to overload the stone's tint.

Basically, I don't mind playing devil's advocate.

 

[diamondringlover]

I am sure you can see a difference when you put these stones side by side and really look at them, I am not a color senitive person, my ering is an I and my 5 stone wedding band are F''s, I have looked many times to see a difference in the color, while my 5 stone does seem a little whiter and brighter I personally cannot see any difference at a regulars arm''s length.

 

[FB.]

elle chris

All stones are GIA graded.

It would be nice to have some better pictures and I will work on getting a better camera and lining up some various colours of diamonds in various light conditions. Maybe a project for a few months time.
But for now, the best I can offer is those pictures, which show unmistakeable colour tints on the H-I stones in certain light conditions.
Viewed from directly above in strong light, the difference is minimal. But viewing from various angles or in less-than-brilliant lighting, the stones show a definite yellowish tint. In fact, the visible tint looks much like a "colour chart" that was given to me by a jeweller.

I''m not on a crusade against lower colour stones (although I suspect that I''ve made a lot of enemies today). I own all the stones in those pictures and wouldn''t part with any of them because they''re all nice in their own way. I actually have a J colour in mind as a next purchase.

I just think that in everyday wear, the lower colour stones show a lot more tint than in many of the pictures and poses that appear to promote their "face-up" whiteness.

 

[ponder]

First, the topic has merit but the pics are useless. Anyone can make their own comparisons using ideal cut stones by viewing a few of GOG''s tutorials. There you have clear video to make more accurate comparisons of color.

Also, I have never read of anyone saying that and ideal cut J will face up as white as an ideal cut D. If someone did say this they were obviously uninformed and talking about something they do not have knowledge of. If this concept was implied in previous posts, I blame the written format that we must use. You cannot always get your entire meaning across in brief post.
Baised on a preference on the website for warmer stones you are forming an impression based on assumptions. You know what happens when you assume...

Is there a bias for warmer stones on this website? HELL YES!

Cut is King here because nobody wants to buy a dud with no sparkle. And deep down inside (IMHO) most of us care greatly about size. Seriously, who does not want the biggest diamond they can afford? So..... color and clarity expectations are lowered to maximize your diamond and your dollar. Plus color sensitivity varies greatly and many people like warmth in their diamonds (my self included).

EX. 1.7 J VS2 ideal $11K vs 1.0 D VS1 ideal $11k

Personally, I''ll take the bigger diamond

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 10/11/2009 5:17:10 PM
Author: ponder
First, the topic has merit but the pics are useless. Anyone can make their own comparisons using ideal cut stones by viewing a few of GOG''s tutorials. There you have clear video to make more accurate comparisons of color.

Also, I have never read of anyone saying that and ideal cut J will face up as white as an ideal cut D. If someone did say this they were obviously uninformed and talking about something they do not have knowledge of. If this concept was implied in previous posts, I blame the written format that we must use. You cannot always get your entire meaning across in brief post.
Baised on a preference on the website for warmer stones you are forming an impression based on assumptions. You know what happens when you assume...

Is there a bias for warmer stones on this website? HELL YES!

Cut is King here because nobody wants to buy a dud with no sparkle. And deep down inside (IMHO) most of us care greatly about size. Seriously, who does not want the biggest diamond they can afford? So..... color and clarity expectations are lowered to maximize your diamond and your dollar. Plus color sensitivity varies greatly and many people like warmth in their diamonds (my self included).

EX. 1.7 J VS2 ideal $11K vs 1.0 D VS1 ideal $11k

Personally, I''ll take the bigger diamond

Me. I had a moment not too long ago where I thought of upgrading my 2.52 G, to an I over 3.21 carats and making it a 3 stone right hand ring. Lucky for me the stone wasn''t what I wanted. Then I woke up and remembered that I see color pretty clearly in larger stones and to be honest, don''t like it so decided against the project. Not everyone wants the biggest diamond if it means sacrificing color, clarity or both.

FB. I agree with you to a point. Yes, you can see that an I doesn''t look like a D and yes, sometimes this site is skewed towards get the biggest rock and go down in color. But foremost this site is about cut- because even if you have a D, it still won''t look good if it''s a poorly cut stone.

 

[ponder]

Elle,

You are an exception in many ways, especially in reference to the point I was trying to make. Again, another instance of not being able to say everything you are thinking in a single post.

Most newbies, with more modest budgets, are encouraged to consider lower colored diamonds do so because they wish to achieve a certain size within a certain buget. ex. need to get 1ct with a $5,000 buget. Usually people who are looking for the largest stone possible with a smaller budget. We encourage them to not sacrifice cut, but something has got to give. Usually color is the first to bend because everyone is afraid of a big black dot under the table.

Rarely have I ever seen someone with the budget to purchase a 2.5 or 3ct stone encouraged to look a I or lower colored stones because the budget simply allows more options.

But you are right, everyone has their own priorities.

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 10/11/2009 7:22:16 PM
Author: ponder
Elle,

You are an exception in many ways, especially in reference to the point I was trying to make. Again, another instance of not being able to say everything you are thinking in a single post.

Most newbies, with more modest budgets, are encouraged to consider lower colored diamonds do so because they wish to achieve a certain size within a certain buget. ex. need to get 1ct with a $5,000 buget. Usually people who are looking for the largest stone possible with a smaller budget. We encourage them to not sacrifice cut, but something has got to give. Usually color is the first to bend because everyone is afraid of a big black dot under the table.

Rarely have I ever seen someone with the budget to purchase a 2.5 or 3ct stone encouraged to look a I or lower colored stones because the budget simply allows more options.

But you are right, everyone has their own priorities.

I know what you mean about the newbies wanting a 1ct for 5k. But I''ve always wondered if they really understood the color differences and if they did, would they still choose the lower color or a smaller stone. Here on PS, after spending enough time, seeing enough pics, armed with enough info and then going out to see various cuts, colors and clarities and then making the choice to go lower is wonderful. That''s a true informed consumer. But we only have a handful of people like that here and they''re the "real ladies of pricescope". A newbie really doesn''t understand the subtle differences, and I''ve often wondered, when they go to an I or J to hit that 1ct mark.. do they regret it when they have the chance to see a higher color? Because to be honest, I''m not color sensitive but I can make a clear distinction face up between higher colors and I, J, K stones. Meaning, I can''t tell you an I is an just by looking at it, but I can see it''s not a colorless stone.

 

[ponder]

That is a really interesting point Elle.

I too wonder if anyone else regrets their lower color choice when they sacrificed color for size. Although, I don''t know if I have seen too many people downsize the stone to increase the color.

I think you see more people like you who were tempted to go down in color for and upgrade but decided they were too color sensitve or that they just did not prefer the warmer stone no matter how tempting the size.

 

[yssie]

I went from a 1ct G to a 2ct I because I found that with GIA/AGS 2-3ct stones the earliest I could detect FACE UP tint was J. And I have absolutely no regrets: I can't see the difference, and I don't care that other people might, so for me anything above an I is a waste of money.

I think I have a very average vision/colour tolerance.

 

[Karl_K]

Find 3 near identical well cut RB diamonds.
1 a D-E one a G one an I have someone mix them up and hand you them one at a time.
Have them hand you each 3 times in random order and write down your answer and see how many you get right only looking at them from the top.

That is the real world test not side by side D vs an I.

No one says(they shouldn't anyway) they face up exactly the same what is said is an I in a well cut RB is ok for most people and a J for a lot of people.

 

[kittybean]

Lower-colored stones facing up "colorless?" Probably not, if you do a side-by-side comparison, but facing up white (what most people are seeking)? Yup!

FB, you should run Storm's test and see how it turns out.

Small threadjack: elle_chris, I really want to see more of your pendant! I didn't see a thread about it, but I'd love it if you would start one

.

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 10/11/2009 10:22:19 PM
Author: Karl_K
Find 3 near identical well cut RB diamonds.
1 a D-E one a G one an I have someone mix them up and hand you them one at a time.
Have them hand you each 3 times in random order and write down your answer and see how many you get right only looking at them from the top.

That is the real world test not side by side D vs an I.

Karl, I can't tell with smaller stones unless they're side by side with a high color, or I'm viewing them from the side. My 5 stone ring has four I's. I remember the day I noticed the color from the side. Was sitting in a cafe near a window and I was shocked. It wasn't a blazing difference, very subtle, and I can't see it all the time. The lighting has to be just right, but once I noticed it, there's no going back. Face up, at .50ct, they look white. I also have "I" color ACA's, .70 each for earrings. I've looked at them a few times and yep, can see that they're not quite as white as my G.

I also noticed it in my friends 1.55 H. But I have a feeling it's lower as there was no cert that came with the ring and the few H's I have seen, generally look very white to me. I would love to get a chance to do it your way but that would only be possible in a jewelry store and under those lights, they all look the same to me.

Like i said earlier, I'm not color sensitive. But if I get the chance to have a good look at a larger stone, I can tell a D/E apart from an I/J without having to compare them together.

yssie- It's great that you can't see color, saves you lots of money. But for me, upgrading size and downgrading color to the point where I can see the tint is also a waste of money.

But like Ponderer said- everyone has their own priorities.

eta: Kitty, I did a thread years ago I think. But I can post a few more pics soon. It's pretty simple actually. A bezel 1ct, K, VS1. Rhino used the stone in a few of his videos. The ones on fire and brightness I believe.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 10/11/2009 10:45:12 PM
Author: elle_chris

Date: 10/11/2009 10:22:19 PM

Author: Karl_K

Find 3 near identical well cut RB diamonds.

1 a D-E one a G one an I have someone mix them up and hand you them one at a time.

Have them hand you each 3 times in random order and write down your answer and see how many you get right only looking at them from the top.


That is the real world test not side by side D vs an I.

Karl, I can''t tell with smaller stones unless they''re side by side with a high color, or I''m viewing them from the side. My 5 stone ring has four I''s. I remember the day I noticed the color from the side. Was sitting in a cafe near a window and I was shocked. It wasn''t a blazing difference, very subtle, and I can''t see it all the time. The lighting has to be just right, but once I noticed it, there''s no going back. Face up, at .50ct, they look white. I also have ''I'' color ACA''s, .70 each for earrings. I''ve looked at them a few times and yep, can see that they''re not quite as white as my G.


I also noticed it in my friends 1.55 H. But I have a feeling it''s lower as there was no cert that came with the ring and the few H''s I have seen, generally look very white to me. I would love to get a chance to do it your way but that would only be possible in a jewelry store and under those lights, they all look the same to me.


Like i said earlier, I''m not color sensitive. But if I get the chance to have a good look at a larger stone, I can tell a D/E apart from an I/J without having to compare them together.


yssie- It''s great that you can''t see color, saves you lots of money. But for me, upgrading size and downgrading color to the point where I can see the tint is also a waste of money.


But like Ponderer said- everyone has their own priorities.


eta: Kitty, I did a thread years ago I think. But I can post a few more pics soon. It''s pretty simple actually. A bezel 1ct, K, VS1. Rhino used the stone in a few of his videos. The ones on fire and brightness I believe.

I have done the above test with a few people you are well above average in color sensitivity.