Was the grandmother insane who killed her grandaughter?

[lbbaber]

I don't think she's remotely "insane". She was of sound mind when she did that. I think she's person who couldn't grow to love a child that had anything to do with its father and she did it on purpose to get that person completely out of her life. I think she was perfectly sane. I just think she's a self-centered jerk who resorted to murder to seemingly rid herself of the problem, exact revenge on someone for what she perceived as ruining her and her daughter's lives, and thought she'd get away with it by claiming insanity. She's sick, but she's not insane.

You examined her on the scene?

Deb

I am pretty sure Ame is stating her opinion about the woman. We are all stating our opinions. Obviously none of us examined her on the scene. This comment seems a little petty. If you don't agree with Ame, fine, but no need to be snarky.

That being said, the woman needs punishment and locked away. If she did it once, she could do it again. Almost all murderers have some kind of mental illness---its what makes them able to kill. Heck, if you try hard enough you can label ANYONE with a diagnosis--lol. I dont feel it should be a "get out of jail free" card. This is my OPINION.

 

[lbbaber]

Mental illness or not, she killed that baby. Period. She needs jail time. She should have some sort of treatment too, but she should not be allowed to be in society where she could have the opportunity to hurt anyone else. Just my opinion.

I agree. For those that feel she should have the opprtunity to be rehabilitated---would you want to be next to her in the skywalk of your local mall? How would you feel if she grabbed your little child bc the child reminds her of the dead child? Just like that and another child could be dead. Nope, No thanks.

 

[PositivelyPeanut]

I can't buy that she didn't know what she was doing... (so there goes "insanity" -- as a legal defense):
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Convicted-Granddaughter-Killer-I-Lost-My-Mind-131361963.html

Sounds like the jurors saw it the same way. I think she's a selfish, attention-seeking creep, to put it mildly. If she really wanted to kill herself, she would've... Everything screams "Look at me!" We all know people like that...it's totally inexcusable to kill a child and I think she should be locked up. If some think that makes me a bad person, oh well.

 

[maplefemme]

I can't buy that she didn't know what she was doing... (so there goes "insanity" -- as a legal defense):
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Convicted-Granddaughter-Killer-I-Lost-My-Mind-131361963.html

Sounds like the jurors saw it the same way. I think she's a selfish, attention-seeking creep, to put it mildly. If she really wanted to kill herself, she would've... Everything screams "Look at me!" We all know people like that...it's totally inexcusable to kill a child and I think she should be locked up. If some think that makes me a bad person, oh well.

Couldn't agree more...
Watching those clips, she's not insane, she's a selfish, resentful, B$#&H who didn't feel loved, so she lashed out and murdered a child to get back at members of her family.
She admitted to intentionally killing her Granddaughter, WANTING to hurt her, not liking her because everyone loved her, and wanting to hurt her Son-in-law by doing so.
I agree she needs therapy, she needs to feel the full guilt of killing her own Granddaughter, with a clear mind.

 

[AGBF]

I am pretty sure Ame is stating her opinion about the woman. We are all stating our opinions. Obviously none of us examined her on the scene. This comment seems a little petty. If you don't agree with Ame, fine, but no need to be snarky.

No, lbbaber, when Ame states an opinion of someone's mental status as if it were fact and I dispute it on logical grounds, I am not just being, "snarky" or, "petty". I am challenging the right of someone to draw an assumption based solely on prejudice. Ame may have, "an opinion", but I was pointing out that it was, "an opinion" uninformed by empirical evidence. Having, "an opinion" is not, in and of itself, a good reason to make statements of fact where fact has not been proven.

AGBF

 

[risingsun]

As a general statement, sociopathy is not a mental illness. There is no diagnostic code for it in the DSM IV-T. Sociopaths do know right from wrong, but have no feelings of empathy toward their victims or anyone else. Antisocial personality disorder is about as close as you might get, but it is not the same. Think of Ted Bundy. Sociopath, but not mentally ill. I haven't read the background of this case yet and do not make diagnoses of someone I haven't seen for an assessment. I will give a diagnostic impression, if I have enough information to do so. At this point I do not. It can be argued that anyone who commits such an act must be mentally ill. Having no empathy is not enough to make that call. Some people just don't have feelings. We can't instill feelings in those who lack them, in most cases. It is a complicated case and needs expert evaluation.

 

[lbbaber]

I am pretty sure Ame is stating her opinion about the woman. We are all stating our opinions. Obviously none of us examined her on the scene. This comment seems a little petty. If you don't agree with Ame, fine, but no need to be snarky.

No, lbbaber, when Ame states an opinion of someone's mental status as if it were fact and I dispute it on logical grounds, I am not just being, "snarky" or, "petty". I am challenging the right of someone to draw an assumption based solely on prejudice. Ame may have, "an opinion", but I was pointing out that it was, "an opinion" uninformed by empirical evidence. Having, "an opinion" is not, in and of itself, a good reason to make statements of fact where fact has not been proven.

AGBF

We are a diamond forum discussing our opinions about a recent case that is in the news. I didn't realise that we had to state over and over "in my opinion". Obviously ALL OF OUR OPINIONS are "uninformed by empirical evidence". None of us are involved in this case and we are getting our info through news media. Noone is stating that what we feel is FACT. For you to read anything more into what Ame said is silly. It seems to me that MOST people can come on here and state an opinion--popular or not--and that is fine....BUT when SOME people try to do the same they are attacked. It is very obvious and sad in my OPINION.

And for the record, we can ALL state our OPINIONS regardless if we work in the mental health field or not. Believe it or not, those that do work in mental health--no matter how experienced they may be--still just have an OPINION. Have you heard the expression- "opinions are like A-holes-everyone has one"? If a poster was ACTUALLY INVOLVED in THIS CASE they wouldn't be posting HERE. Before becoming a SAHM I worked in mental health too but that doesn't make my voice any more important than anyone elses.

 

[lyra]

And for the record, we can ALL state our OPINIONS regardless if we work in the mental health field or not. Believe it or not, those that do work in mental health--no matter how experienced they may be--still just have an OPINION. Have you heard the expression- "opinions are like A-holes-everyone has one"? If a poster was ACTUALLY INVOLVED in THIS CASE they wouldn't be posting HERE. Before becoming a SAHM I worked in mental health too but that doesn't make my voice any more important than anyone elses.

You're right, it doesn't make your opinion more valid, although possibly you are more prejudiced due to your past job experience.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

She needs to be in a mental institution for the rest of her life. Insane is such a broad word but she is a danger to people and society and will always be.

I don't think people understand that mentally ill people can have perfectly normal days and normal feelings but then just not be sane the next day. Unless you've dealt with someone who's like this, you can't even fathom that. I'm sure the parents of that little girl never thought the grandmother would harm her, that she in fact, loved her. I'm sure she did but that's the problem, mentally ill people do not think like normal people. I also don't believe that medication will cure a mentally ill person. It will help sometimes with some of the delusions but they will never ever be cured.

Yep, sadly this is VERY true. A relative of mine was like that...one day acted normal, the next a bit off, then normal again...she did eventually commit suicide.

I'm not in the medical profession so I wonder why socialpaths aren't considered insane. How can a person be so lacking in empathy and not have some sort of brain inbalance of a sort? Just curious. At some point, maybe the definition of insanity will be expanded to include those who are just REALLY abnormal. I do think a person who would do such a thing to a child is not of normal mental state. Not sure where the grandmother in the case should go (jail or an institution) since I don't know much about the case.

 

[AGBF]

We are a diamond forum discussing our opinions about a recent case that is in the news. I didn't realise that we had to state over and over "in my opinion". Obviously ALL OF OUR OPINIONS are "uninformed by empirical evidence". None of us are involved in this case and we are getting our info through news media. Noone is stating that what we feel is FACT. For you to read anything more into what Ame said is silly. It seems to me that MOST people can come on here and state an opinion--popular or not--and that is fine....BUT when SOME people try to do the same they are attacked..

You and I have a fundamental disagreement, and it comes down to language. This is, indeed, a diamond forum, not a court of law. We are not always precise in our use of language here. I often make mistakes when I write, and-when called on them-try to clarify what I meant and, if needed, apologize for what I said (and had not meant to say).

I do try, however, to separate when I "believe" something or when something is true, "in my opinion", from what is fact. I do that in the effort of clarity, because although this is a diamond forum, I am perfectly capable of making statements of fact here and whenever and wherever I write I like to be clear as to whether I am expressing my opinion or what I believe to be a fact .

I also want to say that I resent the implication that I picked on Ame, while I don't pick on others. The truth is that I always thought Ame was an exceptionally intelligent poster when she was posting on Pricescope years ago!

AGBF

 

[lbbaber]

And for the record, we can ALL state our OPINIONS regardless if we work in the mental health field or not. Believe it or not, those that do work in mental health--no matter how experienced they may be--still just have an OPINION. Have you heard the expression- "opinions are like A-holes-everyone has one"? If a poster was ACTUALLY INVOLVED in THIS CASE they wouldn't be posting HERE. Before becoming a SAHM I worked in mental health too but that doesn't make my voice any more important than anyone elses.

You're right, it doesn't make your opinion more valid, although possibly you are more prejudiced due to your past job experience.

Good point. I don't think that it is my job experience that shapes my opinions (most of the posters here that have experience with mentall illness are more forgiving than I am) as much as it is the fact that my younger sister was murdered when she was just a few months older than this young child. She was killed bc the murderer resented that she was half black. He is racist. He also walks free today after a VERY lenient sentence.

 

[maplefemme]

And for the record, we can ALL state our OPINIONS regardless if we work in the mental health field or not. Believe it or not, those that do work in mental health--no matter how experienced they may be--still just have an OPINION. Have you heard the expression- "opinions are like A-holes-everyone has one"? If a poster was ACTUALLY INVOLVED in THIS CASE they wouldn't be posting HERE. Before becoming a SAHM I worked in mental health too but that doesn't make my voice any more important than anyone elses.

You're right, it doesn't make your opinion more valid, although possibly you are more prejudiced due to your past job experience.

Good point. I don't think that it is my job experience that shapes my opinions (most of the posters here that have experience with mentall illness are more forgiving than I am) as much as it is the fact that my younger sister was murdered when she was just a few months older than this young child. She was killed bc the murderer resented that she was half black. He is racist. He also walks free today after a VERY lenient sentence.

That is so tragic, I am so sorry to hear this happened to your Sister, lbbaber.

 

[lyra]

Good point. I don't think that it is my job experience that shapes my opinions (most of the posters here that have experience with mentall illness are more forgiving than I am) as much as it is the fact that my younger sister was murdered when she was just a few months older than this young child. She was killed bc the murderer resented that she was half black. He is racist. He also walks free today after a VERY lenient sentence.

I remember your story, that is awful. I am definitely prejudiced too, my sister is a sociopath and has done jail time. It helped her perfect her technique I think. What she hated so much more, was when she was committed to a psychiatric hospital. That was pure torture for her. So I guess IMO sometimes that is the worse punishment, having to really answer for and deal with what she has done. Being forced to take meds and having less freedom than someone in prison would be punishment too. Of course, I really don't know the woman in this case at all, but feel the tragedy could have been prevented absolutely if only she had been hospitalized before this happened. Maybe then her family would have been very cautious about her ever being alone with any child. Unfortunately not the case though.

 

[AGBF]

Good point. I don't think that it is my job experience that shapes my opinions (most of the posters here that have experience with mentall illness are more forgiving than I am) as much as it is the fact that my younger sister was murdered when she was just a few months older than this young child. She was killed bc the murderer resented that she was half black. He is racist. He also walks free today after a VERY lenient sentence.

I remember your story, that is awful. I am definitely prejudiced too, my sister is a sociopath and has done jail time. It helped her perfect her technique I think. What she hated so much more, was when she was committed to a psychiatric hospital. That was pure torture for her. So I guess IMO sometimes that is the worse punishment, having to really answer for and deal with what she has done. Being forced to take meds and having less freedom than someone in prison would be punishment too. Of course, I really don't know the woman in this case at all, but feel the tragedy could have been prevented absolutely if only she had been hospitalized before this happened. Maybe then her family would have been very cautious about her ever being alone with any child. Unfortunately not the case though.

I don't think I ever heard the story of your younger sister, lbbaber. (I would say I was certain I had not, and couldn't have forgotten something so awful, but my memory has proven to be so poor that I am not about to swear that any longer.) I do want to say that that is devastating and that you have my heartfelt condolences.

Hugs,
Deb/AGBF

 

[Imdanny]

I think I'm on the same page as Circe on this. The fact that someone did this is all I need to know to know that they are a menace to society and should be prevented from ever being able to do it again. By which I do not mean the death penalty, but I do mean life in prison without the possibility of parole. Clinical and legal definitions of insanity are not going to save the next baby she happens to want to heinously kill.

 

[Imdanny]

She needs to be in a mental institution for the rest of her life. Insane is such a broad word but she is a danger to people and society and will always be.

I don't think people understand that mentally ill people can have perfectly normal days and normal feelings but then just not be sane the next day. Unless you've dealt with someone who's like this, you can't even fathom that. I'm sure the parents of that little girl never thought the grandmother would harm her, that she in fact, loved her. I'm sure she did but that's the problem, mentally ill people do not think like normal people. I also don't believe that medication will cure a mentally ill person. It will help sometimes with some of the delusions but they will never ever be cured.

Yep, sadly this is VERY true. A relative of mine was like that...one day acted normal, the next a bit off, then normal again...she did eventually commit suicide.

I'm not in the medical profession so I wonder why socialpaths aren't considered insane. How can a person be so lacking in empathy and not have some sort of brain inbalance of a sort? Just curious. At some point, maybe the definition of insanity will be expanded to include those who are just REALLY abnormal. I do think a person who would do such a thing to a child is not of normal mental state. Not sure where the grandmother in the case should go (jail or an institution) since I don't know much about the case.

Actually, sociopaths are considered to be insane. It's technically one of the personality disorders in the DSM.

 

[lbbaber]

Good point. I don't think that it is my job experience that shapes my opinions (most of the posters here that have experience with mentall illness are more forgiving than I am) as much as it is the fact that my younger sister was murdered when she was just a few months older than this young child. She was killed bc the murderer resented that she was half black. He is racist. He also walks free today after a VERY lenient sentence.

I remember your story, that is awful. I am definitely prejudiced too, my sister is a sociopath and has done jail time. It helped her perfect her technique I think. What she hated so much more, was when she was committed to a psychiatric hospital. That was pure torture for her. So I guess IMO sometimes that is the worse punishment, having to really answer for and deal with what she has done. Being forced to take meds and having less freedom than someone in prison would be punishment too. Of course, I really don't know the woman in this case at all, but feel the tragedy could have been prevented absolutely if only she had been hospitalized before this happened. Maybe then her family would have been very cautious about her ever being alone with any child. Unfortunately not the case though.

I don't think I ever heard the story of your younger sister, lbbaber. (I would say I was certain I had not, and couldn't have forgotten something so awful, but my memory has proven to be so poor that I am not about to swear that any longer.) I do want to say that that is devastating and that you have my heartfelt condolences.

Hugs,
Deb/AGBF

Thank you MapleFemme, Lyra, and Deb. I had mentioned it in an earlier thread (perhaps the Casey Anthony thread?) It happened in the early 80's. I was very young myself. His family owns a bakery here in New Haven (Lupi-Legna) and I have actuallly seen him driving delivery trucks for the company. It just doesn't seem right in my opinion.
ABGF, I am sorry for assuming you meant wrong. I have a bad habit of assuming people's tone when I read online. It gets me in trouble. Now that I have actually stopped and thought about it, I have never found you to be petty like I had accused you of (although there are some posters that do get quite catty at times-including me I guess). Please take my apology.

 

[AGBF]

ABGF, I am sorry for assuming you meant wrong. I have a bad habit of assuming people's tone when I read online. It gets me in trouble. Now that I have actually stopped and thought about it, I have never found you to be petty like I had accused you of (although there are some posters that do get quite catty at times-including me I guess). Please take my apology.

lbbaber, I really appreciate your having said what you did above. I know I cannot really put myself in your place and know how traumatic it would be to lose a little sister under the circumstances you did. Your being only a couple of years older, as you described, must have made it far more frightening. For how could you not have thought that the same thing could happen to you? If you were my little girl, there would be no way I could protect you from the fears, because the fears would be real, not imaginary. That makes me ineffably sad. I really cannot tell you how my heart goes out to the child who was you. Now you have grown into a mature, thoughtful woman who is capable of putting the emotions aside while discussing the issue and looking at someone (me) dispassionately. I find that a real tribute to you as a human being. Thank you.

Many hugs,
Deb

 

[risingsun]

There has been a lot of controversy in the mental health community about whether sociopathy is, in fact, a mental illness. If it is, it is classified under personality disorders [Axis II], which means that the behavior is a part of the individual's personality structure. It is very different than a disorder such as depression, anxiety or schizophrenia, for which treatment is available and has proven efficacy. The diagnosis given is Antisocial Personality Disorder.

My problem with including it with Antisocial PD is that it places a psychiatric label on people who commit murder or other serious crimes, as if we could treat them and they would stop these behaviors. In my experience, that does not happen. Fortunately, Antisocial PD and sociopathic behavior do not meet the criteria for legal insanity. These people know the difference between right and wrong. They don't suddenly "lose their minds." That would be a psychotic break. Any mental health provider who believes that they can "cure" sociopathy is not being realistic. These people do not change. Can we please not medicalize every deviant type of behavior and use it as an excuse?

All this being said, I have no way of knowing if the grandmother in this case is a sociopath. From what I have read, she felt left out of her son, daughter-in-law, and grandchild's lives; did not get the attention she felt she deserved; was jealous of the attention given to her granddaughter; and felt very sorry for her lot in life. She appeared to be angy, selfish, and self-centered. None of these traits, on their own, add up to a diagnosis.

When the DSM V is published, I would like to see a category called Stone Cold Killer, under the V codes. Course of treatment: send directly to prison.