Vitamin Experts / Dr's Out There? Advice Needed!

[missy]

I want to stress that anyone taking D should measure both the 25 OH (storage D) and 1.25 (active) D to get a true picture.
Even though I had been taking it for so many years I didn't realize how important it was to measure both. Most physicians only measure the storage D.

I also think for most people optimal D levels goals are in the upper 60s and 70s. But many physicians feel anything above 30 is enough. I don't believe that is enough and feel most are best at least in the 60s (ng/ml range) if not a bit higher.

Great idea. I find it amazing (among a whole lot of other words) how dismissive doctors can be. We really ARE on our own at times.

So true. Disheartening but true. Part of the problem IMO is that physicians are forced to see many patients and cannot spend the time and energy necessary for many of their patients due to time constraints that are worse than ever these days. The physicians are only human and doing the best they can but yes definitely the patients most in need are the ones most needing of their physicians time and that is just not possible most of the time.

 

[Ellen]

I have taken 5,000 IU of D3 daily for years and my levels are barely normal. Someone once told me that although 30 is the lower level of normal, you really should be around 45-50 for optimal effect. D3 also is believed to be a cancer preventative as well. I live in NJ, a little south of your location, and stay out of the sun because it aggravates my rosacea.

Have you tried experimenting with brands? they do vary. And I would personally up your dosage. And I personally think the 50-75 ish range is optimal, as do many health experts.

 

[Ellen]

I want to stress that anyone taking D should measure both the 25 OH (storage D) and 1.25 (active) D to get a true picture.
Even though I had been taking it for so many years I didn't realize how important it was to measure both. Most physicians only measure the storage D.

I also think for most people optimal D levels goals are in the upper 60s and 70s. But many physicians feel anything above 30 is enough. I don't believe that is enough and feel most are best at least in the 60s (ng/ml range) if not a bit higher.



So true. Disheartening but true. Part of the problem IMO is that physicians are forced to see many patients and cannot spend the time and energy necessary for many of their patients due to time constraints that are worse than ever these days. The physicians are only human and doing the best they can but yes definitely the patients most in need are the ones most needing of their physicians time and that is just not possible most of the time.

That's because again, they are not taught about true nutrition and ALL that that means, in school. Honestly, most have no clue, and many by their own admission. I can't tell you how many doctors I have read over the years that finally realized everything they didn't know about nutrition and the vital role it plays in good health. They said themselves, they weren't taught that in med school. And therein lies the key. MED school. That's what they learn mostly about, meds, and how to prescribe them. So when someone has a vitamin deficiency, they're lost. It would be funny, if it weren't so tragic. I mean, we are talking about our very lives here.....

And yes they are overbooked, plus insurance companies are now telling them they only have 10-15 minutes per patient. That's often not enough. My mom's doctor said just recently how the ins companies dictate what they do. And they do. But that's a whole other thread.

 

[missy]

As promised @Alex T and anyone else interested here are the charts I found helpful re Magnesium. HTH.





I use Pure Encapsulations Magnesium Glycinate.

 

[missy]

That's because again, they are not taught about true nutrition and ALL that that means, in school. Honestly, most have no clue, and many by their own admission. I can't tell you how many doctors I have read over the years that finally realized everything they didn't know about nutrition and the vital role it plays in good health. They said themselves, they weren't taught that in med school. And therein lies the key. MED school. That's what they learn mostly about, meds, and how to prescribe them. So when someone has a vitamin deficiency, they're lost. It would be funny, if it weren't so tragic. I mean, we are talking about our very lives here.....

And yes they are overbooked, plus insurance companies are now telling them they only have 10-15 minutes per patient. That's often not enough. My mom's doctor said just recently how the ins companies dictate what they do. And they do. But that's a whole other thread.

Agreed. I am finding it (as you know) challenging to find a knowledgeable endocrinologist who is current with all that we know now about thyroid treatment and the superiority (in general not for everyone of course) of NDTs over synthetic T4 which causes our bodies to work super hard converting to the active T3 and quite often for those of us with thyroid issues we also have conversion problems. But yes another thread for another day!

 

[Phoenix]

@Alex T, I am sorry to hear that you're shedding hair again. This is not a small matter. For woman especially, it is our crowning glory!

Pls remind me, did you check your antibodies level? All my thyroid readings are fine, except for the antibodies. I only started growing back hair again after I "fixed" my thyroid supplement intake.

I hope the vit D will help you.

Sending you lots of HUGS and hope your hair grows back out again, soooooon!!

 

[Ally T]

@Phoenix Hi gorgeous!

Yes, a full blood work was done last time & everything except the D was in the middle or upper end of healthy / normal ranges. Will get around to emailing you back. Just crazy here with being away for a while & the girls being off school.

But if I recall, I wasn't sleeping very well last year & felt a bit dreamy through my days, and a few days after starting the D, I remember commenting to hubby that I had started sleeping like a baby & suddenly felt really bright & alert. I've just been reading a bit more, thanks to @Ellen & not sleeping well or being foggy brained are classic signs of lack of D. I haven't been able to fall asleep easily for about 2 months & do feel a bit woolly sometimes, so let's see how I get on with the new D3. I've ordered from a UK company, it's vegan & it has 5* reviews from over 900 customers. I'm a sucker for reading reviews before buying anything! Should be here tomorrow.

 

[Ellen]

Alex, I am glad you have read up more, I hope everything works out well for you. And quickly! Please keep us posted.

 

[House Cat]

My vitamin D level came in at 20 on a lab in February. I was put on 50,000IU once per week for three months. I have just done a retest yesterday and won’t know my results for a week.

I wonder if people who have a tendency toward Vitamin D deficiency would be less likely to go toxic when supplementing with megadoses. Maybe they absorb less due to some unknown..undectable condition.

 

[Ally T]

@House Cat Gosh, your levels got really quite low! How did it make you feel & did you even notice there was a problem until you started on the supplements? Did you sense improvement? And you might have a point about people unable to convert & store properly having less issues with toxicity. It would make sense.

My supplements arrived today & I have taken the first one. Fingers crossed in a week or two I might see less hair loss & my poor follicles can start their recovery, yet again....

 

[missy]

My vitamin D level came in at 20 on a lab in February. I was put on 50,000IU once per week for three months. I have just done a retest yesterday and won’t know my results for a week.

I wonder if people who have a tendency toward Vitamin D deficiency would be less likely to go toxic when supplementing with megadoses. Maybe they absorb less due to some unknown..undectable condition.

There are genetic mutations and SNPs that can (if turned on) affect your absorption of vitamins etc and specifically D hormone. Also if one has GI issues one might have trouble absorbing nutrients etc. Thete are lots of variables.

 

[House Cat]

@House Cat Gosh, your levels got really quite low! How did it make you feel & did you even notice there was a problem until you started on the supplements? Did you sense improvement? And you might have a point about people unable to convert & store properly having less issues with toxicity. It would make sense.

My supplements arrived today & I have taken the first one. Fingers crossed in a week or two I might see less hair loss & my poor follicles can start their recovery, yet again....

The lab said 25 was normal. I thought I was marginal

I felt very tired but i was taking a super sedating medication at the time. I’m also b-12 deficient. By the way, I eat well, hardly any processed foods, beautiful wild caught meats, tons of home grown veggies, minimal gluten.

When i took the D supplement, I felt no different. I always feel different with the b-12 injection. I’m looking forward to seeing my vitamin d lab now that I’ve seen this thread.

 

[Ally T]

@House Cat Please come back & share your results

 

[Ally T]

@Ellen I have just ordered the book about Vitamin D you recommended in your first post on this thread. Looking forward to a good read and indeed, to see if a few other issues I suffer from but chalk up to being 44, always busy & lots of running, such as poor sleep, muscle fatigue & occasional lack of concentration, can all be held to account, which is what my early reading so far is leading me to believe. I know some of these can also be put down to low iron & thyroid issues, but both of those for me are checking out fine.

I have also doubled the D dose today. I took just one capsule yesterday (1000iu) but today I've taken 2. My reasoning is because it seems 1000 is suggested to maintain healthy levels, but not to pull up from low. I worked out I was taking 4800iu when the Dr prescribed me medicine last Nov & Dec (2x 800iu capsules, 3 times each day).

 

[House Cat]

My results are back and my Vit. D level is at 27. Still too low. A different doctor tested me this time. I’m waiting to hear how to supplement.

 

[Ally T]

Ooh @House Cat that's really quite low. Keep us updated with what they decide to do for you & if it works & makes any difference to how you feel on a daily basis. And fingers crossed!

 

[Ellen]

@Ellen I have just ordered the book about Vitamin D you recommended in your first post on this thread. Looking forward to a good read and indeed, to see if a few other issues I suffer from but chalk up to being 44, always busy & lots of running, such as poor sleep, muscle fatigue & occasional lack of concentration, can all be held to account, which is what my early reading so far is leading me to believe. I know some of these can also be put down to low iron & thyroid issues, but both of those for me are checking out fine.

I have also doubled the D dose today. I took just one capsule yesterday (1000iu) but today I've taken 2. My reasoning is because it seems 1000 is suggested to maintain healthy levels, but not to pull up from low. I worked out I was taking 4800iu when the Dr prescribed me medicine last Nov & Dec (2x 800iu capsules, 3 times each day).

Glad to hear you got the book! I think you will find it most interesting and helpful. And I'm really glad to hear you doubled your dose. You are right, trying to pull a level up takes more (and may take more than you are currently taking).

Per the highlighted part, I will share another book recommendation. All my blood tests check out fine, but I definitely had/have symptoms of low thyroid. From all my reading on thyroid issues, this is actually quite common. Long story short, i started taking an iodine/iodide supplement. It has eased some of those symptoms and gotten rid of others completely (lack of concentration is definitely one). This is another one I personally feel everyone should read, as almost everyone is low like D. You can find some posts I wrote about it and my experience in Missy's autoimmune thread.

Iodine: Why you need it, why you can't live without it.
https://www.amazon.com/Iodine-Need-...t,+why+you+can't+live+without+it,+5th+edition

 

[Ellen]

A small amount of sunshine truly is the best medicine. While supplements do help, every doctor/health practitioner I've read on Vit D recommends getting out in real sunshine in the highest/strongest part of the day for as long as you can stand without burning (unprotected-no lotion).

 

[Ally T]

A small amount of sunshine truly is the best medicine. While supplements do help, every doctor/health practitioner I've read on Vit D recommends getting out in real sunshine in the highest/strongest part of the day for as long as you can stand without burning (unprotected-no lotion).

I second this & it is something I have always done for both myself & my children. We have been incredibly sunny & hot here in the U.K. since April & we have all had outside time without sunscreen. I remember my Health Visiter trying to sell me Vitamin D tablets for the girls when they were babies & me saying no thanks, I'll just let them into the garden! But my makeup contains sunscreen & on holidays at the end of July, in 38 degree heat for 18 days, I didn't let anybody step outside without sunscreen. I'm an idiot :roll

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Okay, I am trying to get supplements straightened out. This probably should be in a different thread. I have supplements here that I haven't even started taking. There is a site I use to determine the best brands.

https://labdoor.com/

I knew I had a D deficiency, but when the Dr. prescribed a supplement a couple of years ago at a well woman check up, there was no mention of K2. I have taken it sporadically and need to get myself taking these things regularly. I just won't read whole books to figure it all out!!!

So I have fish oil, D and Magnesium. Apparently I need K2. Can any of you with more experience tell me the best time to take these and how much? I plan to take 5000IU of the D daily or a few times a week. I am generally healthy. Is there anything I am missing? Oh, I am using CBD oil as it has many benefits and my primary concern is Alzheimer's prevention. @Ellen, Missy, etc.

 

[Ellen]

Have you got 6+ minutes?

Short answer, K2 takes calcium to where it belongs, in the bones, teeth, etc. Without it, calcium ends up in soft tissues. Not good ----> hardening of the arteries. But watch the video, it's still informative!

As for when to take, I take everything but D, K2, and magnesium in the morning. The D/K2 I take at night because that's usually when I ingest the most fat, which helps the body absorb the D. (D is fat soluble) And I would personally recommend taking the D every day. And 5000IU is not gonna hurt you. It also wouldn't hurt to suppplement like that for several months and then get your levels checked again to see where you're at and whether to stay the course or go up or down. The magnesium can relax so I just take it at night. It really doesn't matter I don't think.

 

[Ally T]

@Ellen Sorry to bombard you, but my D book is a few days away! Do you think, despite my Dr refusing to do blood tests for D in the height of summer, despite the fact that we've established constant sunblock impedes absorption, that I could safely take 4000iu daily for a couple of months to see if it encourages my hair to stop falling out, and if so, then cut the dose down? Or is 3000 enough? My primary concern, as I've said before, is I'm a bit of a worrier when it comes to my health & I try to avoid any medicines etc that are not prescribed by a Dr. I feel a bit out of my depth & concerned, despite some of the high doses taken by people on here. Can I do this for a short period with no K (that wasn't given to me with the high D dose last year so obviously in the short term wasn't important) without any detrimental affects?

 

[Ellen]

Hi Alex!

I am going to repost (from page 1) the quote from the book dr. to hopefully ease your anxiety. I understand fear of the unknown. Just remember, he is an expert at this. And this is what he says:

"I have seen several individuals who have been self administering a daily dose of Vit D3 as 15,000 to 30,000IU for several years. Their 25 (OH) vit D level often gets about 100 ng/ml, but less than 130 ng/ml. None of them have experienced any Vit D toxicity. Their calcium in the blood remains in the normal range.

How Frequent Is Vitamin D Toxicity?

Extremely rare. In medical literature, cases of Vitamin D toxicity are rare.

Most of my patients take a daily vitamin D3 dose of 5000IU, to 15,000IU (125 mcg to 375 mcg). I check vitamin D level in all of my patients and have been doing so over the last 13 years. In the last 15 years, I haven't seen a single case of Vitamin D toxicity in my patients while they are on Vitamin D3 or D2 supplementation! Most of these patients have a level of 25 (OH) vitamin D less than 100 ng/ml. Rarely, I see someone with a level above 100 ng/ml (250 nmol/L), but less than 130 ng/ml (325 nmol/L). Even in these patients, blood calcium is almost always normal.

Rarely I see a patient with a slight increase in calcium level above the normal limit. Simply reducing calcium intake brings the calcium back into the normal range in these patients. I don't consider this slight increase in the calcium level as a case of Vitamin D toxicity."

So I think it's totally fine to take 4000IU for a couple months (glad to hear it actually!). And no, in that short time the lack of K2 would not be a problem. However, I would not recommend never taking it, that will lead to calcium ending up where it doesn't belong. If you didn't watch the video I linked for ds, I would.

One other thing. You said "I try to avoid any medicines etc that are not prescribed by a Dr.". I might agree with many "medicines". But Vit D is not a medicine in the medical sense, though it certainly heals many things. But it is natural, and in fairly low doses, which we are all talking about, it should be just fine.

 

[Ally T]

@Ellen Thanks, lovely! Shall go for 4000iu for 2 months & see what happens

 

[Ellen]

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Thanks, @Ellen!!! I will watch the video, but you saved me a bunch of time telling me when to take them!

 

[Ellen]

Thanks, @Ellen!!! I will watch the video, but you saved me a bunch of time telling me when to take them!

You're welcome!

I just realized though, that you also asked about how much to take. I don't know if you just meant D or the others. So here is what I take:

Nutrigold K2 100 mcg daily
Nordic Natural 5000 IU Vit D daily (and that has only gotten me to 57, so I will need to up it as I want to be nearer to 75)
Superior Labs Magnesium Citrate 200 mg daily

I don't take fish oil, so no real help there.

HTH!

 

[missy]

Okay, I am trying to get supplements straightened out. This probably should be in a different thread. I have supplements here that I haven't even started taking. There is a site I use to determine the best brands.

https://labdoor.com/

I knew I had a D deficiency, but when the Dr. prescribed a supplement a couple of years ago at a well woman check up, there was no mention of K2. I have taken it sporadically and need to get myself taking these things regularly. I just won't read whole books to figure it all out!!!

So I have fish oil, D and Magnesium. Apparently I need K2. Can any of you with more experience tell me the best time to take these and how much? I plan to take 5000IU of the D daily or a few times a week. I am generally healthy. Is there anything I am missing? Oh, I am using CBD oil as it has many benefits and my primary concern is Alzheimer's prevention. @Ellen, Missy, etc.

Hi @diamondseeker2006 , I also use Lab door and highly recommend in addition to that Consumerlab.com. You have to pay a yearly fee to be a member of Consumer lab but they have unbiased and comprehensive reviews of many supplements. They delve into the specific brands and test them to see if they actually contain what they claim to and they tell you what to watch out for when looking for a specific supplement etc. They write about safety issues and concerns and cautions about each supplement and interactions you need to know about. They summarize everything clearly and educate you on each topic without the need for a scientific background. Concisely, clearly and comprehensively IMO. Also they also have lots of helpful research and so much valuable info about each supplement and topic and it is very easy to understand with a clear layout out. IMO worth taking a look to see what you think.

They also have lots of info re CBD oil and fish oil as well as all the supplements and much more valuable info that I absolutely find helpful.

As far as supplements go I generally love Pure Encapsulations (made with minimal ingredients and their supplements are hypoallergenic and generally (unless stated otherwise for specific supplements) made without gluten, sugar, soy, dairy, artificial flavors, sugars, corn, etc.


Several rules of thumb that you may find helpful (And CL goes into more detail about these):

-Moderate to large doses of fat soluble vitamins taken together can decrease the absorption of other fat soluble vitamins. By 10-50% due to competition. Absoprtion of K specifically is reduced when taken with other fat soluble vitamins.
And as Ellen wrote it is better to take them with a meal containing fat to increase their absorption.

-Take Iron with C to increase its absorption.

-Take larger doses of minerals far apart from each other because if taken together they reduce their absorption of each other. For example take larger doses of Magnesium away from other minerals such as Calcium if you supplement with calcium too.

Hope you find this helpful and feel free to contact me offline. I cannot share specific excerpts from CL here as they have rules against sharing that copyrighted material but I am happy to give you more info if you need it!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Thanks so much,@missy! All this info is so important as to when the supplements are taken and what needs to be taken separately! I will definitely contact you when I have more questions!

I am going to an essential oils class this morning. The more natural prevention and remedies I can learn about, the better!

 

[Ellen]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I am wondering about something. Missy, you believe in taking certain things at certain times because of interactions (which is causing you some stress, no doubt!). But, all these things we're taking occur naturally in food. And food came with no guidelines on when/how to eat. For thousands of years we've just eaten whatever food(s) we wanted whenever we wanted and it seems to have worked. So I'm just wondering if someone isn't making this a bit (or a lot) more complicated than it needs to be. I say "someone" because I don't know where you got all this info, but in all my reading I have not come across a copious amount of directions on when to take stuff, other than a suggestion to take D with fat, and that magnesium might be better at night. But even that isn't a must.

Thoughts?