VACCINES: Please read.

[Ellen]

Dear all,

I had a real revelation a few weeks ago, which caused me to stop my normal activities and look into more important issues, like what the powers that be have been up to in our little world, concerning our well being. What I found wasn't so encouraging. Then a few days ago, I decided to follow up on the H1N1 vaccine, to see what it was all about. In light of other info I had found, I had a feeling there was more to its safety/effectiveness than we might be told. What is to follow are links containing information on this vaccine, and all other childrens vaccines as well. Much of it is pulled straight from official govt. agencies/documents. And it's presented by well informed, well meaning citizens, the majority of which are physicians.

I decided to post this information because I care about my fellow citizens, that is my only motivating factor in all this. I think all of you who know me by now, know I am not an alarmist. I'm not prone to linking wildly false info in a state of hysteria, and do not feel I am doing so now. I realize there may be some (or many) who read this and discard it as bunk, for whatever reason. I totally respect that, it is your right to decide what you believe and what you don't. But I wanted to give all of you, and parents/parents to be in particular, the God given right to make it as an informed citizen, which our leaders/doctors past and present have failed to do so far. (little wonder)

My husband and I weren't as fortunate to get this info beforehand. We happily vaccinated our children (25 years ago), thinking we were doing the right thing, that these shots would keep them healthy, that we HAD to do it. Nobody ever said, this is a choice, nor did they say, here's all the ingredients in each shot, and here's all the adverse affects each ingredient can cause, both short term and long term. We were simply told, it's just a bit of the dead virus, to produce antibodies, no biggy. And, it did seem like no big deal, made sense.

What I found in the following videos and articles, is that it's an insanely big deal which we are never made aware of (nor or, apparently, doctors in school). The repercussions are vast, and range from a slight cold, to death, with vast varietal problems inbetween. Of which, each one of my children suffer from more than one. If I knew half of what I know now, before I had my children, not one of them would have ever been vaccinated. And I say that, even in light of the fact that I lost my first born son to SIDS. (no, I have never mentioned that before on this board, for those wondering. i never felt the need, and i only mention it now to underscore how strongly i feel about what i have uncovered. ironically, it seems there are a couple vacs that are causing much suspician in relation to SIDS)

There is much more info out there, for those who seek it. I could have linked all day, but this is some of the best, it gets the point across. However, if you're wanting your news source to be the main stream media, forget it. Most will not be posted anywhere near it, and with good reason as I'm sure many of you will see. It is my humble opinion that those who are there to look after us, inform us, protect us, have fallen way short. They do not report the real news we should be hearing, only what they want us to hear. I have my opinions on that, you can decide on yours.

I strongly urge you to look at everything, each link contains powerful info, but each also contains gems the other does not. And in watching/listening, think about who is speaking. What do they have to gain from all this? why would so many doctors speak out against their own community? why put themselves in the hot seat? why take that risk, that has led some to being "punished". Then think about where we get our info on vaccines from, which is from the doctors, who benefit financially from giving them and/or don't know better. And they get those vaccines from Big Pharma, who benefits insanely from selling them. Who also btw, are the very institutions that do the testing on those very vacs they make (and as you'll see, from the meds they sell for the diseases they cause), and whose "expert" opinion is who the FDA takes on the safety of them.... Then weigh the two sides, and ask yourself, who is motivated to tell the truth, and who isn't?


There is an agenda at play here imho (though I'm far from alone), a big one. And it does not have the peoples best interest at heart. And, it doesn't just pertain to this area, it has its tenticles in lots of places. But don't take my word for it, ask questions, do research, think about it. And if at some point, you begin to feel like Alice falling down the rabbit hole, you're not alone. I'll end my thoughts with the outstanding quote that appears in the video by Dr. Tenpenny, I couldn't have said it better myself.

"A truths initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. When a well packaged lie has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous, and it's speaker a raving lunatic."



Doctors speak out against H1N1 vaccine dangers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok



A large number of quotes from doctors condemming vaccines.

http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web3.html







"Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection."
Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)



Video on flu vaccine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCBlxqmOMKM




If I had to pick just one thing for you to look at, it would be this video. It's done by an extremely knowledgeable, thoughtful, well spoken lady, Dr. Sherry Tenpenny. She spent 6000+ hours researching vaccines by the time this presentation was done. I can't thank her enough, for her time, and her courage. It's 3 hours long, but worth every minute. (note: this was done in 2004, so minor adjustments might pertain regarding some data)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORHqEedtUY



A brief word from the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons on Swine Flu. Take note of the posted excerpt. If vaccines are so safe, then why did HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius give both government officials and vaccine manufacturers a free ride from any potential lawsuits in the event of damage from one of their "healthy" vaccines. Think about that. Your child can be permanently disabled either mentally, physically, or both, or worse yet, can die. And nobody pays.....

http://www.aapsonline.org/newsoftheday/00459

HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius has taken the precaution of immunizing both government officials and vaccine manufacturers from lawsuits like those filed in 1976, by invoking the 2006 Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act (PREPA). The state of Maine, by declaring a statewide civil emergency, also protects schools and medical personnel from liability claims.



This document is extremely damning, and insulting. No words.

http://www.generationrescue.org/blaylock/Truth-behind-vaccine-cover-up.pdf



A very sad commentary on how our vets have (are??) been treated. Taken from a Senate hearing.

http://thinktwice.com/gulfwar.htm



Merk misled in the past. Sweet.

http://www.momsagainstmercury.org/merck.htm




This is the last video, very good, from the UK. Unfortunately, I thought I bookmarked it but didn't. The link I had was on a site where it ran all in one video. I found it on youtube, but again, will have to watch it in parts. I think they sum things up quite well. Just keeping our kids well fed and well rested will do just as much for them, and in my opinion much more, than vaccines will. They are precious gifts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v06YyxObm9g



However, that (keeping them well fed) may not be as easy as one would think. Something else to give you pause, and pay attention to, is something called Codex Alimentarius. Never heard of it? Me either, til just recently, which is pretty amazing since it's been around for decades. It's connected with the United Nations (whom one should also pay attention to, among a myriad of other organizations). Hard to get the real skinny on it, but my impression is, it has the potential to be dangerous. I'll link you to the site, and then to the best explanation I've found for it so far.

http://www.codexalimentarius.net/web/index_en.jsp


Explanation.

http://www.anhcampaign.org/files/090701_Caduceus_Verkerk_article_Codex.pdf





In closing, again, this was posted with only care and concern. I hope it helps those of you charged with making some of lifes most important decisions, in regards to one of lifes most important treasures, our children.


I can't thank all of the contributors of this info enough. Bravo.




1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil.

 

[iheartscience]

Ellen, I respect you and have ever since I started reading PS. Like you, I am far from an expert on vaccinations. However, I think it''s extremely dangerous to discourage vaccinating children. In researching all the possible negative side effects, I think people seem to forget the point of vaccinations: to protect us from very serious diseases. Diseases children are vaccinated for, like measles and meningitis, can all be fatal.

I actually just read an article in Slate.com about a mother whose son has leukemia. Because so many parents refuse to vaccinate their children, she''s unable to find a daycare with children who are all vaccinated. She''ll also have to send him to school with her fingers crossed that he doesn''t come into contact with an unvaccinated child carrying a dangerous disease. Here''s one excerpt from the article:

"In 2008 in San Diego, a 7-year-old boy whose parents refused vaccines contracted measles while on a family trip to Switzerland. Before realizing how sick he was, the boy went to school and infected four other kids at school, after having already infected his two siblings. He then infected four other children who happened to be in the waiting room at his pediatrician''s office. Three of those children were too young to have received their MMR vaccines. One of those infants was hospitalized; another traveled on an airplane while infectious. This case is a sobering example of how one family''s decision not to vaccinate their children has serious consequences for other children.

But it isn''t as sobering as the case in January in Minnesota in which an Hib meningitis outbreak severely sickened four children and killed one infant. Of those five children, one was too young to be vaccinated, one had an immune deficiency, and the other three had parents who refused the vaccine. The child who died was among those three children whose parents, out of fear or personal belief, opted out of the vaccine."

Here''s the link to the article: A Pox On You

I''m not saying vaccines don''t have any side effects. However, it seems like these days vaccines are a convenient scapegoat for parents to blame when something goes wrong with their child''s health.

 

[Ara Ann]

Ellen,

Thank you for taking the time to post all of this information.


We have had first hand experience with a bad reaction from routine vaccines and therefore know a bit about the controversy. Our oldest son had a serious reaction to his first immunizations, most likely the whooping cough part of the shot. I KNEW something was wrong with him and kept calling the pediatrician''s office, but was routinely shot down with my concerns, they brushed me off as being a ''new mom'' and told me to give him Tylenol.

Not until months later did I realize how serious his reaction had been...I came across the info while reading a baby book and realized then that he had a bad reaction to the immunizations and had he ever had another dose, he could have had permanent brain damage or could have died. Since that event, we have been very wary of any immunization. There are pros and cons to each side, but unless your own child actually experienced this kind of reaction, you can not know how frightening it is.

Thankfully our son was alright after that first episode, however, he did struggle with a lot of emotional issues and depression as he grew and I have always wondered if that was linked to his bad reaction as an infant.

We also know a family whose oldest daughter suffered brain damage and is severely handicapped (can''t even hold her head up, walk, speak, etc.) as a direct and proven result of receiving infant immunizations. The family sued the State and won their lawsuit, so this is not hearsay. It does happen. It may seem like it is worth the risk to protect children and everyone from diseases...but again, unless your child is the one with the adverse reaction, you don''t know what it feels like to go through it.


That''s all I am going to say on the subject. I know it''s not a popular stance, but it''s one we were forced to take.

 

[movie zombie]

with you, Ellen. what i''ve been reading for some years has led me to much the same conclusion. that 30 Swedish nurses became exceedingly ill immediately after receiving the swine flu vaccine is troubling. that the german chancellor and other higher ups are being given the vaccine without certain ingredients is also disturbing.

mz

ps and while people are at it, checkout the link between breast cancer, cancer cures, causes, etc. wear pink if you must but understand that we''ve been sold down the river on that one too. it always comes back to follow the $......

 

[Kaleigh]

Ellen,
Thanks for taking the time to post this. I think I made the right decisions for my son in delaying one of his vaccines as he was allergic to it's components. I don't know about these flu vaccines. I know from personal experience, I had one and got sick as a dog.

 

[luv2sparkle]

Wow Ellen that is a great deal of information. I have been concerned about vaccinations for quite a while. I did have my older children vaccinated but my youngest who is now 13 didnt get any until he
was 4 1/2. I am skeptical about all drugs, to tell you the truth. I have noticed too many times in my life that the FDA will pronounce a medication safe and a few years later, they issue and oops statement,
that they have since found otherwise. It has happened too many times to count. I continually tell my children to be wary and hope as they grow older they will remember and be cautious.


i hope this information will become more readily available for future generations.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Ellen, this is a great post and I''m glad you made it, because information is power.

However, one thing people need to realize is this - NO ONE can predict how one vaccine will affect the masses. Everyone reacts differently to the flu shot, for example. I got it a month ago and never had a single side effect, but others can get it and have fevers, flu-like symptoms, or worse. It all depends on how the body adjusts to receiving something that it deems as foreign. It actually has nothing at all to do with the vaccine itself.

Personally? (And when I say this, I am NOT pushing my opinion on anyone, so please don''t jump down my throat. I can have an opinion, just like anyone else.) I would never, ever not vaccinate my children. The risks posed by not doing it far outweigh the risks of getting them done. And I think it is extremely irresponsible not to vaccinate your children, because to me, that is just pushing your own opinion onto other people - by getting their children sick with VERY dangerous diseases.

 

[Kaleigh]

MP, I agree you have to vaccinate your kids... But with Rob I delayed him getting the MMR vaccine in one dose. He was allergic and didn't want to risk a bad adverse reaction.

I want to share what happened, it might help someone. The Pediatrician said, it's time for the MMR vaccine. I was like isn't that the Autism vaccine, or the vaccine that is known to cause Autiism. THIS was 19 years ago. There was stuff in the news. Way before Jenny McCarthy, etc... Holly Robinson Peete..

My pediatrician said well, your son's immune system would have to be compromised for it to have any ill effects. I said, well with him having severe asthma, and allergies out the wazooo... I think that's going to be a big concern for me, and the fact that it's egg based, well. Nope not gonna happen in one dose.

So we agreed on doing it over time in small doses. I was an education major, and read anything and everything about Autism, so I formed my own educated opinion.

I think it's great to have all the info and then make your own decision. I am just glad I am done with the vaccinations, my kids are grown.



I'll be back once it's time for grandkids.. I know you will tell me what you all have leaned.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 10/31/2009 9:30:54 PM
Author: Kaleigh
MP, I agree you have to vaccinate your kids... But with Rob I delayed him getting the MMR vaccine in one dose. He was allergic and didn''t want to risk a bad adverse reaction.

I think in this case it is perfectly understandable - you actually KNEW what would happen, and took steps to make it easier for your kiddo. And you still got it, because you also knew how awful it would have been for him to get mumps with asthma. (Oh Gods, can you imagine? My mom had the mumps as a child and has regaled me with stories of how terrible it was.)

 

[packrat]

Sometimes I think it''s a case of your damned if you do, damned if you don''t. Being vaccinated isn''t a guarantee that you won''t contract a disease, but it''s a heckuva good safeguard that if you do happen to get it, it might not be as severe. But, I can''t take any chances w/my kids. I just can''t. I can''t not vaccinate them and then cross my fingers they never catch anything b/c I think that''s unreasonable. And it''s not like these things are like the common cold-they can be deadly.

We had Meningitis go thru here a few years ago. A couple kids died-they were not vaccinated. A few kids came about *thisclose* to dying-they were not vaccinated. Parents were coming out of the woodwork screaming that their kids hadn''t been vaccinated-most of them put it off until they go to college b/c it''s required then. It''s offered beforehand of course, but sometimes they don''t want to put their kids thru another shot. Sometimes it takes an outbreak before parents think oh crap that could''ve been my kid.

One of my coworkers almost lost her son last week to H1N1. He was lifeflighted to a major hospital. He had been vaccinated-and we''re all thankful that he had, b/c the guess is, it probably didn''t hit him as hard as it could''ve if he''d not been vaccinated.

I do wonder about vaccinations. I wonder about a lot of things that are recommended for my kids b/c I am kinda of the mind that it''s all about the $$$ for Big Pharma and the Govt..but I don''t want to put my kids at risk by not vaccinating them either.

It''s just a tough call either way.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 10/31/2009 10:15:24 PM
Author: MonkeyPie

Date: 10/31/2009 9:30:54 PM
Author: Kaleigh
MP, I agree you have to vaccinate your kids... But with Rob I delayed him getting the MMR vaccine in one dose. He was allergic and didn''t want to risk a bad adverse reaction.

I think in this case it is perfectly understandable - you actually KNEW what would happen, and took steps to make it easier for your kiddo. And you still got it, because you also knew how awful it would have been for him to get mumps with asthma. (Oh Gods, can you imagine? My mom had the mumps as a child and has regaled me with stories of how terrible it was.)

I bet it was awful... Isn''t that a ton of swelling under the throat??? See I have no clue since I was immunized... But thanks about Rob. Not everyone was on board with me 19 years ago. I think sometimes a Mom just knows....

 

[justginger]

As someone sorta involved in the medical field, and having worked at a children''s hospital, I also agree that children need to be immunized. HOWEVER, they need to be immunized after proper education and discussion, and after their parents have decided to have them immunized. If for whatever reason the parents are not comfortable and think the vaccinations will pose a serious threat to their health/development, they need to be able to opt out.

That being said, it leaves them vulnerable to serious health issues in the future. There was a 6 year old girl who died in our children''s hospital from the measles because her parents were anti-vax. She nearly took her little brother and a couple of cousins down with her as well.

I agree that any information pointing towards vaccines having serious side effects, well, it''s just poo-pooed as extremist. Even working in a hospital, I chose not to have the H1N1 vaccine when it was offered in Australia (which miraculously managed to get a dose for every man, woman, and child in the country more than a month ago, while the US is still struggling to get adequate supplies). I was not comfortable with the time frame in which it was pushed through, and the fact that it was so new they hadn''t even tested it for safety in under 10s yet.

With my age and no underlying health issues, I''ll weather the flu storm with a bottle of echinacea and garlic, thanks.

Like you said packrat, damned if you do, damned if you don''t.

 

[VRBeauty]

I''ll admit that I haven''t studied up on the topic. I have grown up with the idea of being immunized and have never had a negative reaction, nor have I know known anyone who did. As a result, I tend not to question the idea of immunization as much as, say, a mother might. I started getting annual flu shots several years it was recommended for my age back when I was traveling a lot and spend several hours each week on commercial flights... and it took me at least a month fully recover anytime I got the flu.

I''ve also worked for many years with two adults who were dealing with the after-effects of childhood polio, and I have a friend whose son suffers the after-effects of childhood meningitis.

Parents today have the luxury of choosing to immunize or not immunize their children because one or two prior generations were immunized, greatly reducing the risk of contracting many childhood diseases. I like Kaleigh''s approach -- consider the patient, consider the specific immunization, and make and informed choice accordingly.

My mother is in her 80''s and is in good health except for her COPD/chronic respiratory ailments. I''ve been following H1N1 news... it looks to me like it''s a fairly mild (though highly contagious) virus, except when it comes to people who have a pre-existing respiratory ailment. That would be my mother. So-- I''ve encouraged her to ask her doctor whether a swine flu vaccination would be a good idea in her case. She''s not in the high priority group for the first round of immunizations, and I do hope that the doctors will tell her she has nothing to worry about. But I also hope that she and her doctor will consider the broad range of what''s known about the immunizations, and her risk for flu and complications, when they decide whether or not to immunize.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 10/31/2009 11:17:17 PM
Author: justginger

I was not comfortable with the time frame in which it was pushed through, and the fact that it was so new they hadn't even tested it for safety in under 10s yet.

With my age and no underlying health issues, I'll weather the flu storm with a bottle of echinacea and garlic, thanks.

If you are still working at a children's hospital then I am VERY surprised you were allowed to opt out. Health care workers are encouraged to vaccinate not for their own sake, but more for the sake of their patients. While I may be healthy enough to fight it off, if I contract it, I might give it to a child or unwell patient who can't fight it. Currently, our children's hospital will not even let a health care worker in the building without proof of both H1N1 and Seasonal flu vaccine.

Honestly, every drug developed has the potential to cause fatal consequences, and vaccines are no exception. The FDA often has to recall drugs because during trials, you simply don't have a large enough patient population to bring out all the potential side effects since the most fatal ones are often very rare, and only seen after hundreds of thousands of people have taken it. Given how many people receive multiple vaccinations, the cases of fatal/serious reactions is actually remarkably low in comparison IMO. That's not to say it NEVER happens, but it is very rare, so I would just carefully look at the risk to benefit ratio, the current literature on vaccination risks, and make an educated choice. A recent study in the Pediatrics journal showed that those that were not vaccinated against Pertussis had a 23x increase in catching it. I personally think 23 fold increase is much larger than the 1 in 500,000 chance of a severe reaction, not to mention the effect on the community.

Here's a recent article from NPR. In a sense, I DO think vaccines are actually being harmed by its own success in this country. If you went to a country that cannot afford the vaccines we routinely give, and where meningitis and whooping cough are more prevalent, I could almost guarantee you nobody would turn down the vaccines.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104523437

However, I am ALWAYS happy to see people being vigilant in educating themselves. I make my decisions based on reviewing the current studies, literature, and statistics. And currently, those things are in support of the relatively safety of vaccines. However, I DO think people should continue to gather numbers and do studies since it's true that we are developing and recommending increasing doses of vaccines, and who's to say whether there is a cumulative effect?

 

[miraclesrule]

Thank you Ellen. I have been engaging in an internal debate about the risks and exposures. My daughter is not a fan of flu shots, immunizations, etc, as I have never taken her to get them (except her infant shots, dosing being much different now than 30 years ago). If it wasn''t for the fact that her husband is traveling to China and Hong Kong for work, we would be in the "absolutely NOT" category.

I think it is imperative to also consider ones unique exposures. If you live in one place and nobody ever travels and you have a small community, then the risks are limited to that community. Once you begin traveling and are exposed to a mass confluence of populations in areas with a lot of exposure, then the risks are greater.

I truly believe from the depth of my being, that healthly bodies are capable of producing their own anitbodies if you let them. There will always....and I mean always, be a vew exceptions to this rule. Nobody can predict those exceptions with a high degree of certainty. The flu has mutated each year because of vaccines. A virus is a living organism that is only concerned with it''s survival. I have always predicted that we need to be more concerned with a superbug than we do with terrorists.

I am far more concerned with MRSA than I am about H1N1. When as many people become sick due to an immunization as the number of people who would get sick anyway, it should make someone go...hmmmmmmm.

My job requires me to have contingency planning in plan for pandemics, so I have been pretty busy lately. It started with the SARS, Avian Flu, H1N1. If we keep spraying live virus into the air, it makes me wonder if we are just one giant experiment of Big Pharma...or worse, just one hugh scared revenue source.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 11/1/2009 12:06:17 AM
Author: miraclesrule
A virus is a living organism that is only concerned with it's survival. I have always predicted that we need to be more concerned with a superbug than we do with terrorists.

I'm sorry, but I have to correct this statement because I think it's a common misunderstanding.

MRSA is Bacterial. The bacterial strains do change over time based on over use of antibiotics, which has led to problems with resist strains. Antibiotics do not cause mutations, they merely kill out the strains that are not resistant, thereby letting the resistant strains grow and multiply and pass on their resistance genes to others since bacteria do "mate" in the sense that they can regularly couple and exchange DNA.

H1N1 is a Virus. Vaccinations will not cause them to recombine or mutate faster, vaccinations will merely enable your body to shut down the virus upon exposure into your body. H1N1 is the result of different flu strains mixing with bird strains inside of a pig and recombining, it's really not the result of vaccinations. Also, viruses are not living organisms in the way bacterial are. It is actually often debated whether they can be classified as alive as all.

Bacterial evolution and viral evolution are quite different, as are the mechanisms of antibiotics and vaccines.

For those of you with complex math skills and are curious, here's a Mathematical model of vaccination.
http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/62/1/187

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Ellen, thank you for posting this. I know you have given it a lot of thought and I really do appreciate it. I will take it seriously when deciding about the H1N1 vaccination.

I''m so very sorry to hear about your loss. I can''t imagine what you must have been through. I know that wasn''t why you posted this thread, but that you mentioned your little boy here tells me how important this issue is to you and I will read the links and watch the videos when I have more time this evening.

Jen

 

[justginger]

To clarify, MakingTheGrade, I am no longer on site at a children''s hospital. I am located at a tertiary facility, but ami n/out of a PC3 lab for most of the day, with negligable patient contact. If I were walking the wards daily, as I used to, I would certainly choose to be vaccinated for public safety. I did receive the seasonal flu vaccine and at this point already suspect that I have my own antibodies built up to H1N1 from exposure (nothing like microbiology in the winter time).

I am unsure of which I am more concerned about - bacterial resistance (nothing like going to a GP, agreeing you have a virus, and then being offered amoxycillin, "just in case") or somehow Lassa/Hanta/Ebola managing to infect someone who survives long enough to get on an A380!

 

[Circe]

I''m not a doctor or a scientist: I study 19th c. literature. Do you know how much Victorian lit. is about infant and child mortality? A LOT.

Vaccinations well might be dangerous for individuals. But, statistically speaking, they''re damned good for societies.

Yes, research your vaccines. Decide how you want them to be delivered. But, please, don''t write them off entirely. It doesn''t take that many people opting out to destabilize the system and bring about situations like the ones the Victorians wrote about, or the ones that Thing2of2 referenced ....

 

[ksinger]

Makingthgrade - we are definitely of like mind here. (I''m repeating some of your stuff, but that''s because I hadn''t read your latest one closely enough and I just now re-read. Same wavelength makes for similar posts I guess)

We are only having this discussion because the vast majority of people here have never seen, nor even known, a person who had one of the diseases that we now routinely vaccinate against. Ironically we are to a great degree, damned by our own success, and people''s woefully short historical memories. (I found it particularly amusing one day when a young gal in my office said, "Well, I mean, what''s the big deal with smallpox anyway, I mean, it''s just like chickenpox." After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I educated her swiftly.) Also, back in 1981, when I was in college and a goodly portion of the women here who are now of child-bearing age were likely not yet born, I became friends with a woman who was in the first stages of post polio syndrome. What she went through over the ensuing years was an eye-opener. I personally have had shingles, and know someone who suffers daily from post herpetic neuralgia. It''s pretty vile.

We also are only having this because we are hoist on our own (recent) belief that we have a right to perfect safety in all things, and furthermore, that SOMEONE should guarantee us that safety, and pay if we don''t get it. The only reason immunizations have worked as well as they have, is that the vast majority GOT them. So, (and this will sound harsh) I have no use for parents who refuse any uncertainty at all regarding their little darling, while coasting on the herd immunity granted by those who DID.

As for h1n1, I find myself grimly amused by it all. First a huge chunk of parents were against the vaccine. Then, when the reports started coming that kids really were dying, my my, how the tune changed. Now you read stories of parents (probably some of the same ones) screaming threats at office staffs when those people tell them that there aren''t enough vaccines for Little Johhny, since they are currently limited and he isn''t in a high-risk group.

Miracles, you really need to read a book on the flu - specifically "The Great Influenza", a great book on the 1918 flu and its time. But more important, it has a great explantion for laypeople, on how influenza viruses change over time. It explains antigen drift versus antigen shift, and describes mutant swarms. Yes, the healthy body CAN create antibodies to just about anything, but in the case of a virulent flu, it is a matter of TIME. The body simply has no TIME before it is overwhelmed, and in the meantime, if the immune system is REALLY good, it can throw the whole shebang at the virus, and you die - drowning in a cytokine storm created by your OWN immune system. The descriptions of how those people died, and the complications experienced by even the survivors, (neurological damage was not out of the question) made death by plague sound preferable. I''m not exaggerating here. So, if I was ever on the fence about flu vaccination, I got off swiftly after reading that book. And for those who think that modern medicine can take care of the ARDS (acute respiratory distress syndrome) that is what usually kills people with acute flu (and the increasing death rate from this flu should give us all a clue), the afterward in this book, on the status of how many beds, respirators in the US, etc, will be quite appalled. A really serious outbreak could quite easily overwhelm the system, and then MORE people would be screaming.

Sadly, I truly believe we will only see a return to adherence to immunization (of all types) when enough people - and not just children - start dying or being permanently scarred or disabled again from diseases we''d thought were gone. Heck, right now there is a resurgence of whooping cough among adults that is getting worse.

 

[sba771]

Date: 11/1/2009 10:03:50 AM
Author: ksinger

Makingthgrade - we are definitely of like mind here. (I''m repeating some of your stuff, but that''s because I hadn''t read your latest one closely enough and I just now re-read. Same wavelength makes for similar posts I guess)

We are only having this discussion because the vast majority of people here have never seen, nor even known, a person who had one of the diseases that we now routinely vaccinate against. Ironically we are to a great degree, damned by our own success, and people''s woefully short historical memories. (I found it particularly amusing one day when a young gal in my office said, ''Well, I mean, what''s the big deal with smallpox anyway, I mean, it''s just like chickenpox.'' After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I educated her swiftly.) Also, back in 1981, when I was in college and a goodly portion of the women here who are now of child-bearing age were likely not yet born, I became friends with a woman who was in the first stages of post polio syndrome. What she went through over the ensuing years was an eye-opener. I personally have had shingles, and know someone who suffers daily from post herpetic neuralgia. It''s pretty vile.

We also are only having this because we are hoist on our own (recent) belief that we have a right to perfect safety in all things, and furthermore, that SOMEONE should guarantee us that safety, and pay if we don''t get it. The only reason immunizations have worked as well as they have, is that the vast majority GOT them. So, (and this will sound harsh) I have no use for parents who refuse any uncertainty at all regarding their little darling, while coasting on the herd immunity granted by those who DID.

As for h1n1, I find myself grimly amused by it all. First a huge chunk of parents were against the vaccine. Then, when the reports started coming that kids really were dying, my my, how the tune changed. Now you read stories of parents (probably some of the same ones) screaming threats at office staffs when those people tell them that there aren''t enough vaccines for Little Johhny, since they are currently limited and he isn''t in a high-risk group.

Miracles, you really need to read a book on the flu - specifically ''The Great Influenza'', a great book on the 1918 flu and its time. But more important, it has a great explantion for laypeople, on how influenza viruses change over time. It explains antigen drift versus antigen shift, and describes mutant swarms. Yes, the healthy body CAN create antibodies to just about anything, but in the case of a virulent flu, it is a matter of TIME. The body simply has no TIME before it is overwhelmed, and in the meantime, if the immune system is REALLY good, it can throw the whole shebang at the virus, and you die - drowning in a cytokine storm created by your OWN immune system. The descriptions of how those people died, and the complications experienced by even the survivors, (neurological damage was not out of the question) made death by plague sound preferable. I''m not exaggerating here. So, if I was ever on the fence about flu vaccination, I got off swiftly after reading that book. And for those who think that modern medicine can take care of the ARDS (acute respiratory distress syndrome) that is what usually kills people with acute flu (and the increasing death rate from this flu should give us all a clue), the afterward in this book, on the status of how many beds, respirators in the US, etc, will be quite appalled. A really serious outbreak could quite easily overwhelm the system, and then MORE people would be screaming.

Sadly, I truly believe we will only see a return to adherence to immunization (of all types) when enough people - and not just children - start dying or being permanently scarred or disabled again from diseases we''d thought were gone. Heck, right now there is a resurgence of whooping cough among adults that is getting worse.

Agree 100% This is another interesting way to look at things too. An an article titled: My son has cancer. He can''t go into day care because of unvaccinated children.

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 11/1/2009 10:03:50 AM
Author: ksinger

Makingthgrade - we are definitely of like mind here. (I''m repeating some of your stuff, but that''s because I hadn''t read your latest one closely enough and I just now re-read. Same wavelength makes for similar posts I guess)

We are only having this discussion because the vast majority of people here have never seen, nor even known, a person who had one of the diseases that we now routinely vaccinate against. Ironically we are to a great degree, damned by our own success, and people''s woefully short historical memories. (I found it particularly amusing one day when a young gal in my office said, ''Well, I mean, what''s the big deal with smallpox anyway, I mean, it''s just like chickenpox.'' After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I educated her swiftly.) Also, back in 1981, when I was in college and a goodly portion of the women here who are now of child-bearing age were likely not yet born, I became friends with a woman who was in the first stages of post polio syndrome. What she went through over the ensuing years was an eye-opener. I personally have had shingles, and know someone who suffers daily from post herpetic neuralgia. It''s pretty vile.

We also are only having this because we are hoist on our own (recent) belief that we have a right to perfect safety in all things, and furthermore, that SOMEONE should guarantee us that safety, and pay if we don''t get it. The only reason immunizations have worked as well as they have, is that the vast majority GOT them. So, (and this will sound harsh) I have no use for parents who refuse any uncertainty at all regarding their little darling, while coasting on the herd immunity granted by those who DID.

As for h1n1, I find myself grimly amused by it all. First a huge chunk of parents were against the vaccine. Then, when the reports started coming that kids really were dying, my my, how the tune changed. Now you read stories of parents (probably some of the same ones) screaming threats at office staffs when those people tell them that there aren''t enough vaccines for Little Johhny, since they are currently limited and he isn''t in a high-risk group.

Miracles, you really need to read a book on the flu - specifically ''The Great Influenza'', a great book on the 1918 flu and its time. But more important, it has a great explantion for laypeople, on how influenza viruses change over time. It explains antigen drift versus antigen shift, and describes mutant swarms. Yes, the healthy body CAN create antibodies to just about anything, but in the case of a virulent flu, it is a matter of TIME. The body simply has no TIME before it is overwhelmed, and in the meantime, if the immune system is REALLY good, it can throw the whole shebang at the virus, and you die - drowning in a cytokine storm created by your OWN immune system. The descriptions of how those people died, and the complications experienced by even the survivors, (neurological damage was not out of the question) made death by plague sound preferable. I''m not exaggerating here. So, if I was ever on the fence about flu vaccination, I got off swiftly after reading that book. And for those who think that modern medicine can take care of the ARDS (acute respiratory distress syndrome) that is what usually kills people with acute flu (and the increasing death rate from this flu should give us all a clue), the afterward in this book, on the status of how many beds, respirators in the US, etc, will be quite appalled. A really serious outbreak could quite easily overwhelm the system, and then MORE people would be screaming.

Sadly, I truly believe we will only see a return to adherence to immunization (of all types) when enough people - and not just children - start dying or being permanently scarred or disabled again from diseases we''d thought were gone. Heck, right now there is a resurgence of whooping cough among adults that is getting worse.

Read the book, totally agree. Fortunately I am vaccinated and have no children at risk of these hysterical parents who refuse to vaccinate. When we have enough deaths and epidemics they''ll get their act together. Pity children will have to die first.

 

[miraclesrule]

Date: 11/1/2009 10:03:50 AM
Author: ksinger

Makingthgrade - we are definitely of like mind here. (I''m repeating some of your stuff, but that''s because I hadn''t read your latest one closely enough and I just now re-read. Same wavelength makes for similar posts I guess)

We are only having this discussion because the vast majority of people here have never seen, nor even known, a person who had one of the diseases that we now routinely vaccinate against. Ironically we are to a great degree, damned by our own success, and people''s woefully short historical memories. (I found it particularly amusing one day when a young gal in my office said, ''Well, I mean, what''s the big deal with smallpox anyway, I mean, it''s just like chickenpox.'' After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I educated her swiftly.) Also, back in 1981, when I was in college and a goodly portion of the women here who are now of child-bearing age were likely not yet born, I became friends with a woman who was in the first stages of post polio syndrome. What she went through over the ensuing years was an eye-opener. I personally have had shingles, and know someone who suffers daily from post herpetic neuralgia. It''s pretty vile.

We also are only having this because we are hoist on our own (recent) belief that we have a right to perfect safety in all things, and furthermore, that SOMEONE should guarantee us that safety, and pay if we don''t get it. The only reason immunizations have worked as well as they have, is that the vast majority GOT them. So, (and this will sound harsh) I have no use for parents who refuse any uncertainty at all regarding their little darling, while coasting on the herd immunity granted by those who DID.

As for h1n1, I find myself grimly amused by it all. First a huge chunk of parents were against the vaccine. Then, when the reports started coming that kids really were dying, my my, how the tune changed. Now you read stories of parents (probably some of the same ones) screaming threats at office staffs when those people tell them that there aren''t enough vaccines for Little Johhny, since they are currently limited and he isn''t in a high-risk group.

Miracles, you really need to read a book on the flu - specifically ''The Great Influenza'', a great book on the 1918 flu and its time. But more important, it has a great explantion for laypeople, on how influenza viruses change over time. It explains antigen drift versus antigen shift, and describes mutant swarms. Yes, the healthy body CAN create antibodies to just about anything, but in the case of a virulent flu, it is a matter of TIME. The body simply has no TIME before it is overwhelmed, and in the meantime, if the immune system is REALLY good, it can throw the whole shebang at the virus, and you die - drowning in a cytokine storm created by your OWN immune system. The descriptions of how those people died, and the complications experienced by even the survivors, (neurological damage was not out of the question) made death by plague sound preferable. I''m not exaggerating here. So, if I was ever on the fence about flu vaccination, I got off swiftly after reading that book. And for those who think that modern medicine can take care of the ARDS (acute respiratory distress syndrome) that is what usually kills people with acute flu (and the increasing death rate from this flu should give us all a clue), the afterward in this book, on the status of how many beds, respirators in the US, etc, will be quite appalled. A really serious outbreak could quite easily overwhelm the system, and then MORE people would be screaming.

Sadly, I truly believe we will only see a return to adherence to immunization (of all types) when enough people - and not just children - start dying or being permanently scarred or disabled again from diseases we''d thought were gone. Heck, right now there is a resurgence of whooping cough among adults that is getting worse.

Karen,

I have read more than any one lay person should have to read about the 1918 flu. I have books on it. It is my job to prepare contingency plans for the employees and our business. We have over 15K employees all over the US and many of them are of the demographic that makes them very vulnerable (aging population). Again, let me reiterate that I too fear a mass outbreak, but it''s more complicated than a simple vaccine. So many things have changed since 1918, yet many of those changes have not made our body systems stronger. I personally believe that an outbreak is inevitable, but I don''t think that H1N1 is going to be that outbreak.

I understand why people choose to immunize especially if they have young children who attend school. I do post that I in fact went through an entire deliberation process with my daughter and we concluded that they should get the shot this year. I would go into detail about the mass amount of conflicting information that I have had to trudge through in order to create a safe working environment, yet not cause mass hysteria.

If people in the U.S. were more cautious, stayed at home when they were sick, donned surgical grade medical masks when they are sick and out in public, as well as the healthy public don them when out during the flu season, then that alone would prevent many illness outbreaks. Would we even consider that in America? No. Why not? Because we rely solely on immunizations that we know everyone isn''t going to get, in part, because they can''t even afford them and don''t have health care.

I can''t even go on and on about all this, because as Ellen stated, this isn''t as simple as one posting. It''s so complicated and interconnected to some many other powers at play. I just wish us all a safe and happy holiday season.

 

[princesss]

SBA: What you posted is what my fear is about non-vaccinated children. We can only make the choices for our own families (I obviously do not have one, so can only speak in theory), but what happens when the choice one parent makes for their children permanently debilitates or kills somebody else''s child? At what point do we have responsibility to our community? And at what point does (or should) community health override fear of potential side effects? What happens when our choices put innocent lives at risk?

I don''t have any answers, of course, but these are the questions that run through my mind when I read articles like this.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

When we went to see my kids'' ped. she said some vaccinations would be unnessary, such as the Polio one, so we didn''t do that one.

We''ve delayed vaccinations and have claimed "philosophical exemptions" at school with no problem.

As my kids are approaching 10, I''m planning to have them get the chicken pox vaccine. Also, the MMR. I''m VERY nervous about how they will react.

We''ve never done flu shots.

 

[kenny]

If vaccines were 100% good or bad there would be no controversy.
They involve a risk, like many things.

Something bad might happen if you get them.
Something bad might happen if you don't.

Each individual must make up their own mind.
After that respect that others may make a different choice.

Once again I'm detecting that unfortunately familiar refrain, "I'm right and everyone should be like me."

 

[Karl_K]

My mom had polio as a child that left her with issues her whole life.
She lost many friends and relatives to the disease and some that lived were crippled for life.
People who have not lived through them can not understand how bad they really are.
Her older sisters talk of the horror of waling through a hospital with child after child in an iron lung and others fighting to recover.
We don''t appreciate how well we have it these days thanks to vaccinations.
Any medication has side affects so they have to be weighed against the gains.

 

[packrat]

We have a large medical center here. Still, we didn''t have the resources to care for my coworkers son. The hospital an hour away, which is pretty much a city unto itself, refused him. I didn''t catch the whole reasoning behind it at the office the other day, but it was about respirators and ventilators and only having a certain number of them available, and other kids being sick in that city. So, then we''re left w/Children''s in Omaha, about 2 1/2 hours away. I can''t imagine what my coworker was thinking, wondering who in the world could take care of and save her son. And, we''re talking *1* child. *1*. What would happen if there were even just a couple more? If we can''t take care of 1 child in our area with severe respiratory problems, what happens if several kids in the surrounding area were to get that severely ill? And he was vaccinated already-and that quite possibly helped to save his life. It just scares me to death.

About staying home when you''re sick..I can''t keep my kids (or ourselves) home all the time for every little thing, and what our office is finding w/Influenza A this year, is that people are testing positive who have negligible symptoms. One woman came in who''d had a sore throat for a couple days, that''s it. She was positive. One came in w/a slight cough, but the appointment was for something unrelated, just coughed a little-and we''re pretty much testing everyone-and she was positive. So...what do you do? It mimics a cold in so many ways, how do you know? One woman had a headache..no fever, no aches nothing..heck I''ve got a headache every week, you know??? I tested negative but was so sick over the weekend I almost went to the ER..I checked w/the provider later and they thought I had a false negative b/c of not enough nasal secretions...think about how many people have a false negative and then figure it''s just a cold.

And this didn''t start during normal flu season..every person on the Earth would need to wear masks 24/7 to try and stay safe.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 11/1/2009 11:35:07 AM
Author: kenny

Each individual must make up their own mind.

After that respect that others may make a different choice.


Once again I'm detecting that unfortunately familiar refrain, 'I'm right and everyone should be like me.'

That's really only 100% true if your choice does not impact the rights and well being of others. Hence why we have laws that limit actions like smoking in certain areas, or buying certain substances, or going out and stabbing an annoying neighbor. Your choices are your own..until they impinge to a certain degree on your neighbor and your community.

And while a few people not vaccinating their kids may not have society-wide implications (though they could very well affect others, such as that children who are too young to be immunized), and many parents indeed of very good reason to suspect their children may be at high risk of a bad reaction, you can imagine that if 25% of our population decided to forgo vaccinations, it could lead to a lot of health problems and resource problems for other people.

I'm not saying everyone should 100% vaccinate, but if a significant amount of people start to forgo vaccinating their otherwise healthy children because they think the risks are "unacceptable" based on mostly anecdotal stories of bad reactions (if your child has severe allergies or other risk factors, I of course understand being more cautious with vaccines), I would honestly be concerned of what that would mean on a societal health level in the long run.

 

[kenny]

Date: 11/1/2009 1:06:29 PM
Author: MakingTheGrade

That''s really only 100% true if your choice does not impact the rights and well being of others.

True.

Once kids are let out of the house and especially into public school the freedom of the individual must take a backseat to the good of society.