Urgent feedback on 1.25 F VS2 Ideal RB stone $8700

[maristidou]

My fiance and I saw this stone in a local jewelry store (Midland Park, NJ) last Saturday after we asked them to bring in F VS2 ~1.25CT stones for us to look at. We have a deposit down on it and promised to go in with the rest of the money Saturday the 20th. Could you please post your thoughts/comments on the stone particularly its medium fluorescence, relative size of the table (3.77mm or 55%), medium to slt thick girdle, good polish and also value for money.

This are the stats the owner of the stone gave the store:
RB 1.25 Ct
6.86-6.91-4.29 mm
Clarity: VS2
Color: F
Depth: 62.3%
Table: 55%
Girdle: MED to STK, F
Culet: None
Polish Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: Medium Blue

AGS 1.25 0
Diam 6.88 (6.85-6.91)
Depth 4.30mm 62.5% (slightly different than above-again that’s the data the owner sent the store)
Crown 35.8mm 16.2% 0
Pavil 40.5mm 42.5% 0
Table 3.77mm 55% 0
Culet 0.8% very small 0
Girdle 1.5 medium – 2.4sl. thick 2.0% 0

I put the numbers in the cut adviser and this is what I got:
Factor Grade
Light Return Excellent
Fire Excellent
Scintillation Excellent
Spread or diameter
for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 1.6 - Excellent - within FIC range

In person the stone was really sparkly and looked like it had a good arrows pattern when we looked at through the blue idealscope. We didn’t see the hearts (turns out the salesperson didn’t know to tell us to put the stone table down to see the hearts – that’s what I later read you’re supposed to do). All the stats looked good to me. My only concerns were that the table was a bit small, the girdle maybe slightly too thick the polish only good and mainly the medium fluorescence. We took the stone outside in the bright sunlight and the stone sparkled like crazy with a blue hue which both me and my fiancé thought was really cool. Inside the store when we placed the stone in a setting with side stones it looked like it had a very slight pink hue (in comparison to the pear shaped side stones) which I think made the stone interesting - is that a sign of something bad?

We put down $500 cash deposit on it. Our budget was $8000 - $8500 for the whole ring. The price on the stone was $9150 but after we said we could pay cash and promised to make a commitment that day if we liked the price, they dropped it to $8700 that includes NJ tax of ~$500 and a free 14K solitaire setting (I actually wanted a custom very very thin six prong solitaire band with really small melee stones paved half way around the ring but that would add ~$600 so I might have to wait a few months for that).

They wrote up some kind of receipt showing $8700 as the full price and that we already paid $500. Told them we would come in with the remainder of the cash on the 20th.

The bottom of the receipt says some stuff in small print about having to return it within 30 days, 10 days with receipt (I don’t remember exactly the wording –my fiancé has it). When does this 10/30 day period begin: when we pay the full amount and receive the stone? (I hope) or when we first gave the $500 deposit. We’d like to get the stone independently appraised (the salesperson said they would give us an in-house appraisal and seemed a bit anxious to set the stone for us before the 20th).

So would you suggest going ahead with this? Is $8700 cash (incl. tax and 14k setting) too much? Do you know of a good independent appraiser in Bergen County NJ? Sorry if I am asking for too much!

As far as time, I am in no rush to get a ring on my finger – we’ve already been engaged 5 months. I have a 4ct emerald cut aquamarine with diamond sidestones ring which I love that has been serving as my engagement ring until my fiance got his bonus (The bonus finally came a few weeks ago). I’d rather spend time to find just the right diamond/setting than settle for something I don’t absolutely love but I'd hate to loose the right diamond because I am being indecisive.

Sorry I know this is a lot..

it’s a big purchase and we are nervous about making the wrong decision.

Thanks in advance,
Melina

 

[Mara]

It seems a little smaller than a real ideal cut 1.25c which should be about 7mm instead of the average here which is about 6.89.




As AL noted, it's not technically an ideal cut...the Good Polish and Very Good Symmetry knock it out of the ballpark on that, and the jeweler may be selling it as an ideal cut, but it's not technically. It still however should be a very sparkly, pretty stone.




The depth is a little high for my taste, some of the carat weight is hiding in there...which is probably why it doesn't look like an ideal 1.25c would in terms of diameter.




You are not overpaying for a nicely cut stone...but just be sure that if you buy it, you know the goods and the bads and that you know what you are buying (e.g. it's not technically ideal). That way you can reconcile yourself and be 100% happy with your final decision, which is REALLY important after the big purchase.




As for the fine print on the return policy, etc...that is something you really need to ask the jeweler and I would do it right away. You don't want to find out after you buy it that you only have 10 days left of the original time period because you didn't ask. Also heartily second Al's suggestion of independent appraisal and NOT in-house.




Personally I would drop that color and clarity to something like G SI1 and up the cut quality and pay less for a better cut stone. Or even do something like F SI1 and keep that color but nix the over-paying for clarity. But that's just me.

Good luck, whatever you decide!

 

[maristidou]

I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my long message

. I've been pretty stressed out this past few days not having anyone to discuss my concerns with - your comments helped a lot.

Basically I really liked the stone when I first saw it but since we left the store I have been thinking more and more about how it looks on paper and started second guessing myself. My fiance is more sure than me – he loves the stone because of its sparkle and blue color in the UV light. I think I need to see it again to know if its the one.

To answer AL's question the stone is GIA certified Cert. 12968568 - it sounds like you both agree its not a bad value and that overall it’s a pretty good stone.

I plan to take your suggestion and make sure I get a clear return policy before I put any more money on the stone. If we end up buying it I also intend to get it appraised independently.

I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

Melina

 

[Mara]

Hey Melina..the one thing I would absolutely stress stress stress is that you are 100% on board with this purchase and make sure your fiance is sure too. Both of you should be 100% sure. I realized after the fact that if you are unsure and not confident that you did all the research, you may second guess yourself later. I went with a non-ideal stone because it was pretty in the store, and my fiance really liked it. But inside I felt like I was not really sure. 20/20 hindsight later...I could have been more patient AND I was driving my fiance insane with how stressed I was getting.




So my advice is relax. Don't stress yourself and DONT stress out your fiance, he may just plunk down the $$ for the stone and then you are outta luck! Please use Pricescope as your venting tool, it really does help to have others to bounce ideas off of and keep your sanity (and resultingly, his!).




There are LOTS of stones out there. This one may or may not be the one. But relax and know that if this one does not float your boat 150% the next time you see it, or something feels off..there are lots of other options. And your fiance will love those too...because he probably just really wants to make you happy.

My fiance took the plunge on the stone to save me from myself...make sure that doesn't happen to you..hee.

 

[ZhenyaH]

I wholeheartedly agree with Mara. I don't care how good the specs are and how much your fiance loves it. When it comes down to it, YOU have to love it since you're going to be wearing it for the rest of your life!

My fiance and I rushed the shopping process and with three months left to go for our wedding (almost a year after the purchase of the ring) I'm looking to get a better diamond, something that's worth the money we paid for. Unfortunately, I only quality for store credit and I get sad that I can't take advantage of the internet jewlers.

Take your time and enjoy the process!

Another thing: when selecting a setting, keep in mind how well the ring is going to look next to the wedding band that you want. Another mistake we made...

 

[maristidou]

I'm a mess.

We just came back from the jeweler. Oh... where do I begin. After a week of stressing out, not sleeping and getting migranes from thinking about it I had finally decided I liked the stone enough to buy it. So we go get the whole $8700 in cash (that's what I promised them - that why the price went down from $9150) and go to the store.

The sales guy brings out the stone we look at it for a little and like the way it looks again and are ready to ask about return policy etc. We ask to see it under the loop again. He gives us the loop. The stone looks really dirty or something so I ask him if he could clean it. In the mean times he asks: "so you really do not want to set the stone huh?" and I say "yes, I spoke to people that know a lot about diamonds and they all suggested I get it loose so I can have it independedly appraised." And he goes away - we thought to clean the stone - but ends up going to talk to the manager.

So he comes back and gives us this whole speech about how it's really dangerous to walk around with a loose stone and that we could get it apraised after its set just as easily. So I said that I was told its impossible to do that since there are things like weighing the stone accurately or finding all the inclusions which would not be possible if the stone was set. So then he says that I am wrong and goes on to explain that if we were to take the stone he would only give us a day to appraise it and bring it back. I was kind of taken back...I said its not possible and explained that we are not borrowing the stone we are bying it IN CASH. I said your store receipt says we get at least ten days to return the stone. He then tells me no way ...that if we take to be apraised and the person finds that it's not what it should be.. and we bring it back that he WOULD NOT give us our money back because it would mean they switched the stone on us.

Plus he says "we have never sold any stone loose", and they always do apraisals after the stones are set. I say ok, I am sure there are dissonest people out there but that I only planned to take it very reputable appraisers that would never do such a thing. Plus I said I will be present when the apraisal takes place and that I would expect he show us the way the stone looks in fluorescent light as well as map out all the inclusions. I ask how is it possible for the appraiser to have a ~1.25 ct stone with medium floresence and a small black inclusion on the bottom ready and waiting to switch with ours? I said I am not stupid and this stone is very unique for them to switch. He proceeds to tell me that he doesn't trust anyone except their store. Then he asks where I plan on taking it. I say well I cannot tell you because the point of this is that its independent. Then he suggests we go to this very big overpiced jewely store to get the stone appraised. I explain we have already been looking at stones there and they would be very likely to undervalue the stone to push theirs.

Then he starts telling me about how great a price he is giving us and how he is only making $700 profit on it and that frankly he'd rather sell it to someone else for more blah blah blah. I explain that I understand that and I believe that he gave us a great price but I will not buy the stone unless they allow us 10 days to verify that it is indead what the GIA certicate says its is. He says no way they don't trust anyone handling the stone except themselves. I say ok how about you weight the stone and map out its inclusions right now so you know if I am bringing back the same stone or not. He changed the subject.

Lots more was said but the bottom line was that I said "then I do want it" got a check from them for our $500 deposit (hope its good) and walked.

So what the hell happened? There are two things I can think off:

1. The stone was not what its seemed. There was something they did not want the appraiser to find.

2. They kept showing the stone after we put down a deposit...they found someone willing to pay more for it and wanted tho find a way to get us to back off.

So now we are back to where we started ...a lot more educated and wise but with no diamond.
I have found a few stones on Pricescope that I really like but both me and my fiance want to be able to see the diamond before we buy it. Do you know which vendors are willing to ship the stone to you, a local jeweler or an apraiser for you to look at. Also do you know of any diamond wholesalers in NYC the ones without the storefrond (on the high floors)that actually own the stones?

Please help me understand why this happened and what I should do now. Thanks

Melina

(By the way the stone I was going to buy was listed on http://www.pancisgems.com that's how the jewelry store found it. If you take their free tour and search for 1.2-1.3 Ct F V2 it should show up as Number st-14052 or look at
http://www.pancisgems.com/merchants/certificate.cfm?item=GIA%2012968568 for the GIA CERT. I don't think they sell directly to the public. Has anyone heard of them? Pancis Gems, Inc.11 West 47th Street, New York, NY 10036 USA
(800)426-4435 )

 

[Hodne]

How about this beauty from GOG?

http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_19ct_e_vs2_h%26a.htm

 

[maristidou]

Thank you caratgirl, Mara, aljdewey, phoenixgirl, lop and Hodne for all your support and suggestions. I don't think I would have walked out had I not known so much from talking to all of you and reading your postings.

We actually live in NJ but work in NYC. Do you know If I went to see a stone in NYC and wanted to buy it whether I would have to have it shipped to my home to get no tax or could I pick it up myself there.

We'll probably try to keep the price between $8500-9000. So if you see any stones in that range please let me know. I know most people avoid it but some fluorescence is a plus -at least we liked how it looked in that particular stone-(thanks for your reccomendation Hodne).

I'll keep you posted on my search.

Melina

 

[hoorray]

Check with each vendor, but I think to not charge sales tax, they have to send it out of state.

 

[valeria101]

This whole thing sounds crazy! I understand that not all customers ask for so much, but the jeweler does seem to have over-reacted. The worst that could happen to him, I supose, was one more day of waiting for the appraisal. I am surprised that the mediumfluorescence made such an obvious impression: were the side stones of lower color by any chance?

Sorry for the unpleasant situation

It does seem that stones sold online will come with all the info you might want.

Not the usual B&M practice at all: they have the advantage of letting diamonds talk for themselves don't they!

Oh well, it does however seem that the unfortunate stone was a fine cut and thus a good representation of what an ideal cut may look like. So you will end up with the best of both worlds: the visual experience from the hands-on shopping and the pack of info from an online shop.

Best of luck

 

[maristidou]

valeria101 about the fluorescence: indoors the stone was not that different than others it just seemed to pick up more of a pink color than the pear shaped side stones we set it next to. I think they were G or lower color. But we took it outside in the bright sunlight and it sparkled like crazy with a dinstict blue color. Has anyone had a similar experience with a MF or Slight F stone or you think its fluorescence was really more than medium?

Melina

 

[madmarlin]

Melina,

Coming from a novice who just purchased a stone via Pricescope, I would also highly recommend Mark at Engagement Rings Direct. He is up in NYC. I'm down in FLA and he was a pleasure to work with. Shipped the stone right to an independent appraiser and made it a breeze. Worked with me on my criteria and found a great stone for me.

Best of luck and I'm sure whichever way you go with the recommendations on here, you'll be happy.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 3/20/2004 8:47:31 PM maristidou wrote:

valeria101 about the fluorescence: indoors the stone was not that different than others it just seemed to pick up more of a pink color than the pear shaped side stones we set it next to. I think they were G or lower color. But we took it outside in the bright sunlight and it sparkled like crazy with a dinstict blue color. Has anyone had a similar experience with a MF or Slight F stone or you think its fluorescence was really more than medium?

Melina

----------------

Could be but, Med. bl. fluor stones will take on that bluish/purpley "plugged in" look in sunlight.

 

[maristidou]

So far I have been mostly looking at F VS2 stones. As I am starting to look around again I have come up with some nice SI1 stones too. Would you suggest I go SI1 as long as its eye clean and up the Ct/size of the stone or save money for a really nice setting. (F is probably as low as we can go - we are both very sensitive to color i.e. I can tell the F from the G).

Also these are questions I haven't found answers to yet, so I would really appreciate your comments:

Is the difference between VS2 and SI1 only about the number and size of inclusions?
Are there types of inclusions that are less disirable? If yes, does the clarity grade take that into effect? Which ones have the least effect visually and structurally? ( I know tiffany's rejects diamonds with knots, black inclusions etc.)
Does the possition of the inclusion alone (i.e. if it's close to the girdle or low by the culet vs. in the middle of the table) affect the clarity grade or is it up to the smart consumer to find stones with inclusions that can be hidden by prongs or the right setting.

Thanks
Melina

 

[Stephan]

Melina, I think you liked the first diamond you didn't buy not because of the fluorescence but because of the special FIC look (high crown angle whith shallow pavillon).
But faint or medium fluo is not a problem, of course.

Regards,

 

[valeria101]

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On 3/20/2004 8:47:31 PM maristidou wrote:

valeria101 about the fluorescence: indoors the stone was not that different than others
----------------

The grading should be right. I usually can't pick up medium fluorescence, but you had very good conditions to see it in comparison with the side stones, so... it can well be. It would not be a detraction in my view.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 3/21/2004 2:44:35 PM maristidou wrote:

So far I have been mostly looking at F VS2 stones. As I am starting to look around again I have come up with some nice SI1 stones too. Would you suggest I go SI1 as long as its eye clean and up the Ct/size of the stone or save money for a really nice setting. (F is probably as low as we can go - we are both very sensitive to color i.e. I can tell the F from the G).

Also these are questions I haven't found answers to yet, so I would really appreciate your comments:

--

Did you compare the F w/ fluor to a G w/ no fluor? If so, then I would compare a non fluor G to a non fluor G. Or better yet, compare a Fluor G to a non fluor F. Color perception can be tricky. How many F's did you compare to G's w/ comparable cuts?

 

[maristidou]

I must say I have not seen that many stones in person probably about 10 (7-8 non ideal cut, 9/10 without fluorescence).

The first day we went shoping we were shown a couple of stones of v good/excellent cut, VS1-SI2 clarities and D-H color. Both my fiance and I saw a yellow hue in the stones that were G or H. We were really bad at finding inclusions however.

On a different occasion they brought in stones for us and laid three of them out next to each other. They said they were similar but did not share any other information. She asked if I could tell what color they were (they were all without fluorescence) I pointed out that two of them looked like they were F and the other G (I knew she wouln't have brought D or H/I stones). She looked extremely supprised and said I was right - she also said I have a great eye and that most people can't see any difference in stones of such similar color.

Is it possible that some people can see very small variations in color while others can't?

Melina

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 3/21/2004 5:58:24 PM maristidou wrote:

Is it possible that some people can see very small variations in color while others can't?

----------------

Yes.

So... how about a D-SI stone after all?

 

[Mara]

Way too many options for me to even take a stab at narrowing it down...once you get it down to a few I may chime in.




One thing on that 60 Table stone. Note on the Sarin it says the table is 58%. The cert says 60%. So something is off there. I don't think H&A will be present with a 60% table and a shallower depth. Note that just because a diamond notes H&A...unless you SEE the patterns and they are true, it's not H&A.

 

[maristidou]

Did I narrow it down enough?




Melina

 

[Mara]

Much better!




I love the 1.38 F SI from NiceIce as long as it's eye clean. I like the size of it, and the specs look really amazing as well, angles etc. The HCA score is excellent and NiceIce will have pictures up the wazoo for you when it comes in. Pictures are key IMO in buying a stone online. Their reputation is very good, as well.

On the 1.20 with the 0.5 HCA score, I will throw this out here but take it with a grain of salt. Some people feel that HCA scores under 0.6 actually compromise the contrast in the stone. So some would prefer stones that score closer to 1 or similar rather than the 'lowest score' on the HCA (e.g. I may not *as* interested in a score of 0.3 as I would one that is 0.9). It's not proven...I have heard it bantered about, so it's something to consider when you are looking at comparisons. Just one more 'comment' in the spreadsheet.

That said, the 1.20 is nice but I am not into F/VS or E/VS for more $$. I would go SI and get a bigger stone and still focus on well-cut. If you still consider this one, get H&A images. The cert is not enough.




Not loving the 1.15 EVS2..talk about a waste of $$ for a clarity grade.

I'd rather go bigger and go SI1 eye clean. But if you still consider it, again more info.




I'd nix the last one with the funky table/sarin discrepancy just because I am lazy and if I am confronted with other good options that don't confuse me, why waste the time to find out where the mistake was made. Too tedious.

My two cents!

 

[maristidou]

Thanks Mara. /idealbb/images/smilies/1.gif You brought up some goods points. I did't know that about the really low HCA scores. I might ask to see more info/pics on the 1.202 just to verify your theory. I like the 1.38 F SI1 too (as long as you can't really see the inclusions). I know that people here always say don't compomise quality for size that's why I was considering the smaller stones with better stats. Do you know if there is any chance niceice will ship to an apraiser or anyone else they might work with in NYC so I can see the stone?






Melina

 

[Mara]

I think R&T would send to an appraiser, I don't see why not.




As for the compromising size for quality...it's all in the eye of the beholder, but I don't see SI as a compromise for anything. As long as it's eye-clean, it is the same as VVS unless you view it under a loupe. So IMO don't pay for something that you can't SEE. E.g. VVS or VS clarity. If a great stone came along and it was SI...I would hands-down consider it. So you do have more options than just VS. IMO the 4c's are along the lines of cut, carat, color, clarity. But if you don't care *as much* about carat, I would say cut, color, carat, clarity. Clarity for me is ALWAYS last. As long as it's eye clean, no one knows AND it may get you that better cut stone. Or bigger stone. Or better color. So IMO it's something worth looking into.

 

[Rhino]

----------------
On 3/21/2004 2:44:35 PM maristidou wrote:











Also these are questions I haven't found answers to yet, so I would really appreciate your comments:

Is the difference between VS2 and SI1 only about the number and size of inclusions?

The full answer to this question is not only number and size but also but also position, nature, & color or relief of the imperfections will determine the clarity grade.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are there types of inclusions that are less disirable?

Yes. Ones that break the surface and are in positions that are vulnerable to damage.

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If yes, does the clarity grade take that into effect?

Yes and in most circumstances it will be plotted on a GIA Report in green (as opposed to red). Green indicating blemishes (external) and red indicating inclusions (internal).

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Which ones have the least effect visually and structurally? ( I know tiffany's rejects diamonds with knots, black inclusions etc.)

Diamonds of the SI clarity grade and higher and a lot of I1's. There are I1's on the market that do have eye visible inclusions but have excellent transparency which to a point can do a good job of masking the inclusion(s). Once you get to the I2-I3 grades then you start thinking about structural durability.

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Does the possition of the inclusion alone (i.e. if it's close to the girdle or low by the culet vs. in the middle of the table) affect the clarity grade or is it up to the smart consumer to find stones with inclusions that can be hidden by prongs or the right setting.

Interesting you should bring this up because if you have an inclusion located "low by the culet" this will in just about all circumstances cause that inclusion to reflect all over the place from within the diamond (I'd link you to an example but am forbidden on the forum) thus affecting the clarity grade of the diamond. So in short the answer is yes but the other 4 factors must be taken into account as well and not just position alone.

Thanks
Melina
----------------

To this I would also add that if you are looking at SI clarity diamonds ... it's a mixed bag out there. Not all SI's are the same so it is wise to view the diamond under magnification and I would also strongly suggest dealing with people who physically inspect the merchandise they are presenting or selling. We received an H SI1 diamond in last week that was so hazy becuase of graining within the diamond. This generally does not present any problems to a diamond visually (there are VVS1 diamonds that are so because of internal graining) but it can sometimes. Just be more careful with SI's.

My .02c

 

[Rhino]

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On 3/22/2004 6:55:22 PM Mara wrote:







On the 1.20 with the 0.5 HCA score, I will throw this out here but take it with a grain of salt. Some people feel that HCA scores under 0.6 actually compromise the contrast in the stone. So some would prefer stones that score closer to 1 or similar rather than the 'lowest score' on the HCA (e.g. I may not *as* interested in a score of 0.3 as I would one that is 0.9). It's not proven...I have heard it bantered about, so it's something to consider when you are looking at comparisons. Just one more 'comment' in the spreadsheet.

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It is not only the opinion of some professionals but it has actually has been proven with technology as well.




Peace,