University sponsored charter school fails

[ksinger]

OK, disclaimer, I do not enjoy seeing any school doing poorly. HOWEVER, being rather closer to the issues confronting education today than I used to be, and understanding that the "choice" movement, and charters as part of that, is being touted as "the big SOLUTION" to all our educational woes (read, the removal of societal support for comprehensive public education), combined with the fact that in another forum recently I was told basically, that since I didn''t have a masters in ed from Columbia, I had no credibility, and essentially, to sit down shut up and piss off, I had a few moments of rolling over, kicking my little feet in the air and laughing bunches, when I read this.

Oh it''s all so unfair! But we''re trying to educate the most disadvantaged!

English learners!

But but...the test scores don''t accurately reflect!

Blah blah blah. How does it feel O mighty Stanford? Welcome to the club!! Not as easy as it looked from up there in the ivory tower, is it?

Charter Extension Denied to Low-Scoring Stanford School

 

[movie zombie]

"While Stanford New School does better than most other California schools in student retention and sending them to college, the students’ standardized test scores are low."

and therein lies a big problem : the article seems to indicate the school was not teaching to a standardized test but providing a well rounded learning experience. as one student says on page 2 of the article, if you''re looking at scores you don''t see the actual learning. New School has made a difference in the east palo alto community. but making a difference is not the same as meeting test score criteria that every other school must adhere to.

welcome to the real world, stanford! you may be doing a good job but your students have to take a test just like other students in other areas and if they can''t pass that test, you''re a failure. now you know how other california school districts and teachers feel.

i am no fan of charter schools for many reasons one of which is that they are not subject to the same rules re integration, etc. i''m disappointed in the direction education is headed in this country, including but not limited to teaching to a test which does not reflect that students are learning.

what made this country great was public education, especially after WWII. what is going to break this country is that we no longer have a commitment to education.........california certainly does not.

mz

 

[dragonfly411]

The thing that bothers me though, is that everything is based on these standardized tests nowadays. Everything about schools is geared towards teaching kids just enough to understand what''s on those tests, and that''s it. It''s a bit scary...

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I have mixed feelings about charter schools as well. But it is not all bad, this story really made me feel like there are 2 sides to everything, even charter schools: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/tim-king-students-urban-prep-charter-academy-persons/story?id=10088324
While I have issues putting kids in schools that are not held to the same standards, and for that reason am totally against public funding of private schools, I also feel like there are things about charter schools we could emulate. They tend to have smaller classes with teachers who are able to be more involved.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/16/2010 6:10:38 PM
Author: brazen_irish_hussy
I have mixed feelings about charter schools as well. But it is not all bad, this story really made me feel like there are 2 sides to everything, even charter schools: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/tim-king-students-urban-prep-charter-academy-persons/story?id=10088324
While I have issues putting kids in schools that are not held to the same standards, and for that reason am totally against public funding of private schools, I also feel like there are things about charter schools we could emulate. They tend to have smaller classes with teachers who are able to be more involved.

Don''t let anyone think that I am implying that charters can''t work. They can. But there are several problems with how we have been viewing them - with how they have been sold to the American public. The following is from Wikipedia because I''m too tired to get up and pull a few books and type so much, but this stuff is pretty well-known and easily verified.

"The most authoritative study of charter schools was conducted by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes (CREDO) at Stanford University in 2009. The report is the first detailed national assessment of charter schools. It analyzed 70% of the nation''s students attending charter schools and compared the academic progress of those students with that of demographically matched students in nearby public schools. The report found that 17% of charter schools reported academic gains that were significantly better than traditional public schools; 46% showed no difference from public schools; and 37% were significantly worse than their traditional public school counterparts. The authors of the report considering this a "sobering" finding about the quality of charter schools in the U.S. Charter schools showed a significantly greater variation in quality as compared with the more standardized public schools with many falling below public school performances and a few exceeding them significantly. Results vary for various demographics with Black and Hispanic children not doing as well as they would in public schools, but with children from poverty backgrounds, students learning English, and brighter students doing better; average students do poorer. While the obvious solution to the widely varying quality of charter schools would be to close those who perform below the level of public schools, this is hard to accomplish in practice as even a poor school has its supporters."

The point is that the data does not bear out the hype.

Another serious issue is that actually defining and/or isolating those factors that make a school successful, is exceedingly difficult, to the point of almost defying definition. Oh, you can say smaller class size, and more involved teachers (but please do make note of the high teacher burnout mentioned in that article - higher than the rate in traditional public schools - it is a well-known characteristic of charters) but as the article points out, more money, supposedly "better" teachers, and even more attempts at mitigation of societal factors - does not always guarantee success.

I just think it''s amusing that charters full of what I imagine to be properly ivory-tower indoctrinated teachers, could not do better than "average" teachers, and have learned that all of their complaints about the unfairness of only using test scores to judge success or failure, are absolutely justified. Honestly, I suspect those disadvantaged kids are doing quite a bit better than the test scores would indicate, but those schools are going to be ground up with the rest of the public schools, sadly.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 4/16/2010 6:57:42 PM
Author: ksinger


I just think it''s amusing that charters full of what I imagine to be properly ivory-tower indoctrinated teachers, could not do better than ''average'' teachers, and have learned that all of their complaints about the unfairness of only using test scores to judge success or failure, are absolutely justified. Honestly, I suspect those disadvantaged kids are doing quite a bit better than the test scores would indicate, but those schools are going to be ground up with the rest of the public schools, sadly.

amen.

mz

 

[Maria D]

A quote from the article:

“Maybe this demonstrates that schools alone cannot solve the very deep problems kids bring to school,” said Diane Ravitch, the education scholar and historian. “You cannot assume that schools alone can raise achievement scores without addressing the issues of poverty, of homelessness and shattered families.”

gee, YA THINK??

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/17/2010 11:37:08 PM
Author: Maria D
A quote from the article:

“Maybe this demonstrates that schools alone cannot solve the very deep problems kids bring to school,” said Diane Ravitch, the education scholar and historian. “You cannot assume that schools alone can raise achievement scores without addressing the issues of poverty, of homelessness and shattered families.”

gee, YA THINK??

Far easier to distract a population that desperately wishes to BE distracted from the huge problem we have let fester for decades. Easier to scapegoat the schools as the cause when they are the symptom. They truly only serve as a mirror for all the problems we want to ignore outside their doors. We say we want an educated populace - without of course, being able to articulate at any level or reach any real consensus on what exactly constitutes "education" or what is meant by an educated individual.

Applying a business paradigm to educating our children - and by that I mean being in love with metrics and numbers to attempt to quantify that "educated individual" is going to - IS already - biting us on the butt.

Ravitch's new book is excellent BTW. Highly recommend it. Chapter 2 is about the San Diego fiasco, and the hubs was reading it last night, going "OMG. They're starting to do that HERE!!".

 

[movie zombie]

as a nation we''re not committed to addressing those issues that are reflected back in the schools.........and on top of it all we don''t value nor do we respect the job that teachers are doing.

here in california teachers have faced so many budget cuts that classroom essentials aren''t even available. parents on limited incomes are expected to buy school supplies to complete basic assignments. and then our govenor has taken $ from education to balance the budget with promises to pay it back....which he never did and then took more $.

and then there is the myth/illusion that school districts are equal with equal access to $ and other resouces.

california is no longer an educational leader but has fallen to somewhere around number 38.

education reflects societies problems and portends the future. its not looking good.

mz

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/18/2010 12:15:04 PM
Author: movie zombie
as a nation we''re not committed to addressing those issues that are reflected back in the schools.........and on top of it all we don''t value nor do we respect the job that teachers are doing.

here in california teachers have faced so many budget cuts that classroom essentials aren''t even available. parents on limited incomes are expected to buy school supplies to complete basic assignments. and then our govenor has taken $ from education to balance the budget with promises to pay it back....which he never did and then took more $.

and then there is the myth/illusion that school districts are equal with equal access to $ and other resouces.

california is no longer an educational leader but has fallen to somewhere around number 38.

education reflects societies problems and portends the future. its not looking good.

mz

No, it isn''t. So much for making the schools better. We may not have any schools LEFT by the time we''re done.

Districts Warn of Deeper Teacher Cuts

 

[movie zombie]

sigh, ksinger: another article underscoring my thoughts that the future is looking dimmer and dimmer.

mz

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Education today seems to mean that the school is responsible for taking care of the social problems in the society. There are interest groups that influence how money is spent and how the physical plant(school buildings) are to be used. I have discussed this with friends and while they see my point, they would not lead the march to eliminate some of these things that cost lots of money.

I did some sub teaching and was really(I admit) horrified to "teach a class" of students that drool, that I must feed (took an hour) and wheel off to 0ne class per day. These student come by van, with attendants caring for them. The school has custodial care of these children all day. Lest you think I am hard hearted, I had a son who was disabled and because he could not put his own boots on he was told he couldn''t come to school(kindergarten) anymore. I agreed to that, because I thought it was my respnsibility to take care of him, not the teachers. Now the schools take care of very severely injured children.

Case #2. I was asked to teach a class of emotionally isturbed children. O f course they never informed me of that. There was an assistant in the class who kept finishing my sentences and took over the class, which I resented. I thought why did they call me in if I''m not surposed to do anything.
Well I found out this was a dangerous class. The boys could have beaten me up and the young lady thought she was protecting me. So in another school we have disturbed 10 yr olds that might beat me up.

Case 3. Subbed in a high school-- very good neighborhood. This was a class for less disturbed young people, but they need to talk about their problems. So we sit in a circle and talk about their boyfrinds and girlfriends. I thought I must be in la-la land.

I do have one more but that enough for today. How can school systems handle so much. To me its crazy.
Its hard to change the culture of schools but you have to start somewhere. Society cannot put everything on the schools. We have a whole school that teaches and speaks spanish. Those lovely children are now at a disadvantage because someone thought it was nice they could speak in the mother tongue at school.

Look at the money thats going for all these programs.

Next comment: Student and parents attitudes.
Thanks,

Annette

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/24/2010 5:27:00 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi,

Education today seems to mean that the school is responsible for taking care of the social problems in the society. There are interest groups that influence how money is spent and how the physical plant(school buildings) are to be used. I have discussed this with friends and while they see my point, they would not lead the march to eliminate some of these things that cost lots of money.

I did some sub teaching and was really(I admit) horrified to ''teach a class'' of students that drool, that I must feed (took an hour) and wheel off to 0ne class per day. These student come by van, with attendants caring for them. The school has custodial care of these children all day. Lest you think I am hard hearted, I had a son who was disabled and because he could not put his own boots on he was told he couldn''t come to school(kindergarten) anymore. I agreed to that, because I thought it was my respnsibility to take care of him, not the teachers. Now the schools take care of very severely injured children.

Case #2. I was asked to teach a class of emotionally isturbed children. O f course they never informed me of that. There was an assistant in the class who kept finishing my sentences and took over the class, which I resented. I thought why did they call me in if I''m not surposed to do anything.
Well I found out this was a dangerous class. The boys could have beaten me up and the young lady thought she was protecting me. So in another school we have disturbed 10 yr olds that might beat me up.

Case 3. Subbed in a high school-- very good neighborhood. This was a class for less disturbed young people, but they need to talk about their problems. So we sit in a circle and talk about their boyfrinds and girlfriends. I thought I must be in la-la land.

I do have one more but that enough for today. How can school systems handle so much. To me its crazy.
Its hard to change the culture of schools but you have to start somewhere. Society cannot put everything on the schools. We have a whole school that teaches and speaks spanish. Those lovely children are now at a disadvantage because someone thought it was nice they could speak in the mother tongue at school.

Look at the money thats going for all these programs.

Next comment: Student and parents attitudes.
Thanks,

Annette

Indeed. And you think they''re dangerous at 10. You oughta see what they''re like when they''re 16-17. In my husband''s district, the gang families have figured out how to get their kids lableled LD, and once that happens, in his district at least, there is virtually no way to get rid of them, which suits the parents just fine, because, whew! I don''t have to deal with the little s*** today (free babysitting!! yay!). My husband has observed and talked with the school constabulary, and estimates that 80-90% of their weapons violations are special ed kids. And getting people to teach those kids, and STAY more than a year or 2, is incredibly difficult. It doesn''t take too long for the teachers to figure it out. Who wants to teach "special ed" kids that are mostly thugs, when they might go elsewhere and teach special ed kids that are....special ed.

 

[Tuckins1]

Date: 4/16/2010 6:10:38 PM
Author: brazen_irish_hussy
I have mixed feelings about charter schools as well. But it is not all bad, this story really made me feel like there are 2 sides to everything, even charter schools: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/tim-king-students-urban-prep-charter-academy-persons/story?id=10088324

While I have issues putting kids in schools that are not held to the same standards, and for that reason am totally against public funding of private schools, I also feel like there are things about charter schools we could emulate. They tend to have smaller classes with teachers who are able to be more involved.

I work in a charter school, and I will tell you that we are held to the same standards as all public schools. The state of Michigan has a curriculum that has to be taught, and all children are assessed on the grade level content. It is true that many charter schools have smaller class sizes... I wish we did!! We are a HUGE school and have on average about 30 kids per class!! Educating disadvantaged youths is not easy. We are in a suburb of Detroit and the majority of our students are Detroit Public Schools students. It''s hard, but if we fail to make progress with our students, we are penalized and run the risk of losing our charter as well. It sucks, but that''s life.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi All,

I think i took this thread a bit of course. I did not address the Charter School at all. I apologize for this. I guess I wanted to express my opinion of our schools and just did that.

I take for granted that Charter schools were a new "try me" to see if education could be improved in this way. I''m just a die hard who wishes the public system that my friends and I grew up with was still available to the kids of today. I''m a like it used to be kinda person. Really, there is nothing sadder to me than to see the disintegration of something that was so great.
I hope Charter schools work. It sounds as if they want to create a two tier systgem, as in England, where you have the private school vs the comprehensive school (I have sat in on classes there).

At any rate, I will tell a tale of home schooling that I also participated in briefly with someones else''s children.

I bought a small home in the suburbs of Chicago 30 yrs ago. I also owned or rented a place in the city, where worked. I became very ill, recouped, and went back to live in my little house. This is a neighborhood of first time buyers and is filled with babies and school age children. To my surprise I found myself among home schoolers, religious and very involved with their childrens upbringing. I heard discussions on curiculum, where to buy the books, and how it works.These parents were very afraid of the public schools. They have a network established.

The children were very successful, so much so that as the home schoolers became teenagers, the local community college began offering advanced classes for just those home-schooled. By the time they were 13 or 14 they could take the Sats and some college credit courses.

At this time I was asked to teach some home school classes in my home which I agreed to do because I love these kids. I could choose the books(English & Social studies). Three sisters , all different ages came. Funny, I was not successful, because their religious beliefs made them intolerant of other views and I couldn''t stand that. Then they would go home and tell their mom that I was contradicting the Bible. It was me who couldn''t take it. I told her mom I could no longer do it. I only lasted 2 or 3 months. These kids were so smart, except for their life views . This is my opinion only. I felt like the devil.
I spoke to the mom a few years later and she sent them to parochial school, although she was not Catholic.

Home schooling does work and is not quite as hard as you would think.

If I have gone off course again, chaulk it up to my not being able to discuss these ideas now. They all left the neighborhood--on to bigger homes and the American dream.

Viva the Public Schools. May they regain their former glory.

Thanks,
Annette

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/9/2010 3:59:30 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi All,

I think i took this thread a bit of course. I did not address the Charter School at all. I apologize for this. I guess I wanted to express my opinion of our schools and just did that.

I take for granted that Charter schools were a new ''try me'' to see if education could be improved in this way. I''m just a die hard who wishes the public system that my friends and I grew up with was still available to the kids of today. I''m a like it used to be kinda person. Really, there is nothing sadder to me than to see the disintegration of something that was so great.
I hope Charter schools work. It sounds as if they want to create a two tier systgem, as in England, where you have the private school vs the comprehensive school (I have sat in on classes there).

At any rate, I will tell a tale of home schooling that I also participated in briefly with someones else''s children.

I bought a small home in the suburbs of Chicago 30 yrs ago. I also owned or rented a place in the city, where worked. I became very ill, recouped, and went back to live in my little house. This is a neighborhood of first time buyers and is filled with babies and school age children. To my surprise I found myself among home schoolers, religious and very involved with their childrens upbringing. I heard discussions on curiculum, where to buy the books, and how it works.These parents were very afraid of the public schools. They have a network established.

The children were very successful, so much so that as the home schoolers became teenagers, the local community college began offering advanced classes for just those home-schooled. By the time they were 13 or 14 they could take the Sats and some college credit courses.

At this time I was asked to teach some home school classes in my home which I agreed to do because I love these kids. I could choose the books(English & Social studies). Three sisters , all different ages came. Funny, I was not successful, because their religious beliefs made them intolerant of other views and I couldn''t stand that. Then they would go home and tell their mom that I was contradicting the Bible. It was me who couldn''t take it. I told her mom I could no longer do it. I only lasted 2 or 3 months. These kids were so smart, except for their life views . This is my opinion only. I felt like the devil.
I spoke to the mom a few years later and she sent them to parochial school, although she was not Catholic.

Home schooling does work and is not quite as hard as you would think.

If I have gone off course again, chaulk it up to my not being able to discuss these ideas now. They all left the neighborhood--on to bigger homes and the American dream.

Viva the Public Schools. May they regain their former glory.

Thanks,
Annette

The true mark of education is the ability to entertain an idea - to actually THINK about it in all its genuine complexity without summarily dismissing it, yet not necessarily adopting it as one''s own. That is something that homeschooled kids are likely to be short on, since the motivation for homeschooling is usually as religiously motivated and as much shielding kids from views the parent doesn''t agree with, as pure education. My husband says that the ones he''s encountered are bright kids, but that they clearly haven''t been required to engage in the real battle of ideas. In fact, they usually haven''t even been exposed to some of them. He sees those kids as smart, but often intellectually brittle because of that lack of struggle and exposure. He gives the parents props for involvement, but thinks that these kids would be absolutely scary smart if they went to public school AND the parents supplemented at home with that same zeal. Unfortunately, religiously motivated schooling choice - which homeschooling usually is, at least in these parts, usually does not put a premium on true consideration of a viewpoint other than your own. Can''t give a kid TOO much info, or he might (gasp!) end up not agreeing with you.

As for charters, well, there have been quite a few articles of late, indicating that the word is getting out - at least somewhere, around HERE we''re alwasy about 7-10 years behind the rest of the country - that charters are not living up to the silver bullet hype.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I want to add, that interestingly enough, the parents of these girls were not so insular. Many of the moms and dads I met were far more tolerant than their children were. These parents were the product of the public schools. What I think they failed to take into consideration was that children do not make subtle distinctions. They take things literally.

I admire the fact that they found individuals who were willing to teach higher level maths to these kids as a group. They enlist people like myself to help. The parents knew what I was like(no church affliation) and I know they are nice people. I liked that I had the experience.

I don''t think anyplace i n the country is 7-10 yrs behind. In fact, I sort of think that we have become homogenized. It used to be said that New York and California were ahead of the rest of the country(I know this from being a New Yorker), but considering all their troubles now, I''m not sure that is a claim that holds true anymore. I know I believed it at one time.

You see, I believe we have to continually reassess our ideas and beliefs. I think we over shoot ideas many times. Its always good to rethink.

Well, nice to meet you. I know MZ a bit from her posts. MZ, don''t get mad at my California crack. Ksinger Give your husband my best and thank him for fighting the good fight.

Thanks,
Annette

 

[movie zombie]

no harm, no foul: california has its problems just like anywhere. sad, though, because it once was a leader. no longer. and its not just in the area of education..........

mz