Uncertified Diamonds

[ssn29]

I was just wondering, is it bad to buy a diamond from a reputable jeweler if its not certified? (The jeweler is offering a gurantee of his own, and will accept the diamond back if appraised differently than he stated it was). Thank you guys so much, I love this forum

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 9/7/2008 1:31:01 PM
Author:ssn29
I was just wondering, is it bad to buy a diamond from a reputable jeweler if its not certified? (The jeweler is offering a gurantee of his own, and will accept the diamond back if appraised differently than he stated it was). Thank you guys so much, I love this forum

Check with the local BBB and find out if the jeweler is reputable and without serious complaints, anyone can have a frivolous complaint filed.

It is unusual to find uncertified diamonds on the net, but many of them are sold in B&M stores. I believe that Tiffany''s sells stones without AGS or GIa certs, preferring their own, but i might be mistaken in that.

It can be good or bad, depending on the jeweler and depending on how good his gemological training and ethics are.

It will definitely be more difficult to resell should you ever choose to do so.

Wink

 

[dockman3]

As long as you get the guaranteed return in writing, I should think you would be fine to get it, get it appraised and then if you''re happy, just stick with it! I''ve seen too many people not get the guarantee in writing and then the vendor "forgot" about it and won''t take it back. But as long as you are happy with it and the appraisal, I see no reason not to go for it.

 

[Allison D.]

About the jeweler''s guarantee, a few things to make note of:

Get specifics on the guarantee. Many times, it stipulates that it has to be off by 2 or more color/clarity grades. Also, does the guarantee specify that it''s money-back? If it doesn''t expressly say it allows a refund, then it may be exchange only.

There isn''t anything inherently wrong with buying a stone without a grading report, it''s just a lot more risky for a consumer who doesn''t have enough gemological knowledge to know if it''s a good stone or if it fits what they want. One way to purchase such stones smartly is to negotiate a reasonable refund period and take the stone to an independent appraiser during that period.

It''s a bit more legwork to buy this way, which is why many prefer to buy stones with grading reports. Also, as Wink mentioned, stones with lab grading reports are typically easier to resell.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/7/2008 1:31:01 PM
Author:ssn29
I was just wondering, is it bad to buy a diamond from a reputable jeweler if its not certified? (The jeweler is offering a gurantee of his own, and will accept the diamond back if appraised differently than he stated it was). Thank you guys so much, I love this forum

Welcome ssn,

As Wink says there are various factors which mean you need to proceed with caution....Is it a particular diamond you have fallen in love with, and if so what is the shape and do you know the colour and clarity it is said to be? Have you considered GIA or AGS stones? What is the guarantee if you want to return it, refund or credit?

 

[ssn29]

Thanks for all the replies! I will definitely make sure to get somenthing in writing about the return policy. As for the gurantee, the jeweler said he will accept the diamond back at any time for upgrades, and also if I want to sell it in say 10 years, he will buy it back but at 80% of the original price. As for the diamond, I have not settled on one particular stone, but what I am looking at is in the 2.20-2.60 carat range, a G/H and an eyeclean SI1 or 2. I''m going back tomorrow to have a better look, and will make sure to ask for all the specifics that would usually appear on a certificate. I just wanted to hear what you guys had to say about uncertified stones! Jeweler also told me I could send it to GIA to get certified but at my own expense, which I think might be the best thing to do.

 

[denverappraiser]

The only guarantee you EVER get is from the dealer and often that’s pretty weak so it’s a good sign that the dealer will stand behind their grading. How big a stone and what grading are we talking about here?

What’s being saved is the GIA fees and a bit of shipping and these fees aren’t really all that high but on smaller stones it can become a considerable percentage of the cost of the stone. GIA grading on each of the stones in a cluster ring, for example, would be silly because of the costs. On a major stone I would recommend insisting on a GIA report and I would agree to them raising the prices enough to cover the fees and if you can come to an agreement on a stone, have them ship it off to GIA as part of the deal. If it comes back as expected you buy it and proceed with the ring, if not you move on.

Here’s the GIA fee structure.
http://www.gia.edu/gemtradelab/31548/fees.cfm

One of the problems has to do with insurance replacement. IF you get an insurance policy and IF you file a claim, they will replace with ‘like kind and quality’ and the probably will not be sourcing it from your jeweler. A replacement with an ‘uncertified’ 2.00/VS2/F or a stone from graded by a 2nd tier lab will likely not be the same as a replacement for a 2.00/VS2/F/GIA, even if it was correctly graded in the first place, especially if you are paying a premium for superb cutting.

Resale is actually less of an issue I think. Most diamond shoppers aren’t doing it as an investment and have no intentions of reselling but if you ever decide to sell it for whatever reason, you can always get the GIA done then. Presumably you’re saving the costs of the lab fees by buying a house graded stone and by buying the labwork at the end you have a ‘new’ report when you approach your sale.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 9/7/2008 2:18:04 PM
Author: ssn29
Thanks for all the replies! I will definitely make sure to get somenthing in writing about the return policy. As for the gurantee, the jeweler said he will accept the diamond back at any time for upgrades, and also if I want to sell it in say 10 years, he will buy it back but at 80% of the original price. As for the diamond, I have not settled on one particular stone, but what I am looking at is in the 2.20-2.60 carat range, a G/H and an eyeclean SI1 or 2. I'm going back tomorrow to have a better look, and will make sure to ask for all the specifics that would usually appear on a certificate. I just wanted to hear what you guys had to say about uncertified stones! Jeweler also told me I could send it to GIA to get certified but at my own expense, which I think might be the best thing to do.

You’ll notice that my proposal above is ever so slightly different from yours. It’s at your expense if GIA agrees with his grading. It’s both at his expense and the deal is off if they do not.

At 2.20-2.60/G-H/SI1-SI2, I would not recommend accepting anything less than GIA or AGS pedigree.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[ssn29]

Thanks for all the advice! I will definitely be sure to bring that up tomorrow when I go back tomorrow. Honestly I know its better to get a certified stone when its this large, but all the stones I''ve seen so far have been priced between 23,000- 25,000. While the uncertified are around 17,000- 19,000. So the difference was significant enough for me to give the uncertified stone a good look. Since I don''t plan to sell the stone, it just seemed that buying it uncertified wasn''t such a bad idea. (But at the same time I guess it would be better to pay 25,000 and know what Im getting for sure than 17,000 and find out its actually worth 13,000).

 

[Lorelei]

You can use this tool to find an independant appraiser in your area to get this diamond checked out, that should give you some peace of mind should it get a favourable report and make the sale final on it checking out to your satisfaction.

https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 9/7/2008 2:28:35 PM
Author: ssn29
Thanks for all the advice! I will definitely be sure to bring that up tomorrow when I go back tomorrow. Honestly I know its better to get a certified stone when its this large, but all the stones I've seen so far have been priced between 23,000- 25,000. While the uncertified are around 17,000- 19,000. So the difference was significant enough for me to give the uncertified stone a good look. Since I don't plan to sell the stone, it just seemed that buying it uncertified wasn't such a bad idea. (But at the same time I guess it would be better to pay 25,000 and know what Im getting for sure than 17,000 and find out its actually worth 13,000).

The $6000 difference in price you are seeing is NOT a function of lab fees as evidenced by the fee structure above. Failing that, what do you think it’s about? Put another way, if the dealer could raise their prices by $6000 by adding an extra $154 expense, don’t you think they would do it? Wouldn’t you if you were in their position?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[ssn29]

Thanks Lorelei!!

 

[ssn29]

Thats true about the price difference! But the thing is, this has been the case with all uncertified stones I have seen, in more than one jewelry store. So I''m basing this on more than one experience! While the certified stones on whiteflash, bluenile, etc have all been within the same range. So I don''t quite understand the difference myself. I''ve been searching for a while now for the ''right'' stone (but I had been asking for VS stones and only recently decided to look at SIs). But I will definitely take into consideration all the advice and tips. Can''t believe I didn''t know about this forum sooner!! Thanks for allowing me to post and replying

 

[denverappraiser]

I think you’ll find that Whiteflash, Blue Nile and most of the other big Internet houses don’t sell ‘uncertified’ stones, but many of them do sell stones graded by non-GIA and non-AGS labs and they do appear to be cheaper, sometimes by quite a bit. The key is this. Graders are not all the same.

Graders do not all use the same scales or standards even though they usually use the same terms. One grader's idea of SI1 can be another graders idea of I1. G can mean J, etc. Ideal and excellent can mean almost anything.

There are important gemological properties that don't appear on the reports or that appear on some but not others.

Sometimes the difference between different graders describing the same stone can be dramatic.

You are not comparing apples to apples.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[ssn29]

When comparing bluenile and whiteflash and others I was referring to the GIA-certified pricings

They were all in the similar price range! But I didn''t look at any uncertified stones online, I would rather see those in person and meant they were also grouped into a similar price group. Thats why I began to consider getting an uncertified stone. But thats a good way of putting it, not comparing apples to apples!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Date: 9/7/2008 2:49:38 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 9/7/2008 2:28:35 PM
Author: ssn29
Thanks for all the advice! I will definitely be sure to bring that up tomorrow when I go back tomorrow. Honestly I know its better to get a certified stone when its this large, but all the stones I''ve seen so far have been priced between 23,000- 25,000. While the uncertified are around 17,000- 19,000. So the difference was significant enough for me to give the uncertified stone a good look. Since I don''t plan to sell the stone, it just seemed that buying it uncertified wasn''t such a bad idea. (But at the same time I guess it would be better to pay 25,000 and know what Im getting for sure than 17,000 and find out its actually worth 13,000).

The $6000 difference in price you are seeing is NOT a function of lab fees as evidenced by the fee structure above. Failing that, what do you think it’s about? Put another way, if the dealer could raise their prices by $6000 by adding an extra $154 expense, don’t you think they would do it? Wouldn’t you if you were in their position?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Neil''s point is a good one and he beat me to it. The cost of a certified stone is a few hundred at most; certainly not thousands. If a cutter or a supplier has a stone that they think would get an AGS0 rating or a GIA Ex Ex rating, they will spend the money and get it certed in all likelihood.

The difference in price is about the quality of cut, color or clarity. When comparing non certified stones to certified stones, you HAVE to compare apples to apples in order to tell the difference in price. Chances are you won''t be able to do it. The non certified stones would have to come with sarin reports in order for you to be able to compare depth, table, crown and pavillion angles. Chances are those stones won''t have them. A jeweler telling you that a stone is a G color, VS1 clarity won''t mean squat when you take it to the next jeweler. He will argue those things with you and say that he thinks the stone is only an I color. I''ve been there, done that. AGS and GIA certs aren''t the last word either (they also involve grading by humans) but they are an industry accepted standard. Few will try to argue what they say.

You can purchase a non certed stone and take it to a qualified, independent appraiser. That could give you some piece of mind but still won''t be proof of anything. In case of loss, your chances or replacing that exact stone with the same exact quality is slim.

B&M jewelers aren''t usually as competitive pricewise. They have lots of overhead to cover and must pass that on to someone. WF and GOG are brick and mortar stores too but they have a large online service as well.

I got stuck with a non certed stone years ago. I got the complete run around when I went to trade it. However, in all fairness, when compared with other well cut, certed stones, it didn''t hold a candle. Even with my limited experience, I could see that and had to admit that it wasn''t close. I took a large loss on the stone in order to move on. It was a difficult lesson to learn. There was no internet in those days so my points of contact were very limited. Today, you have the world at your fingertips. Unless you are extremely knowlegeable about diamonds, you can make a very costly mistake in choosing a diamond with no pedigree. You are taking one person''s word on a purchase of thousands of dollars. It is a risky proposition.

If, on the other hand, you find a stone that sings to you in a price that you can do, go for it. Just know that it might not be what you think it is. It probably won''t be cut as well as you would hope it would be. If this jeweler closes shop and moves south, you won''t have a prayer of being able to sell or trade it if you ever wish to do so. I know this may all sound harsh but it is all true. Your luck is that you are learning all of this BEFORE you buy a stone. That way you are making the most informed decision that you can. I wish someone had been able to share this with me long ago. It would have saved me lots of money and lots of heartache.

My last point to you is this: read well and learn much from this forum. Decide what things are most important to you - whether they be cut, color, clarity or price. Consider downsizing a stone in favor of getting a well cut, certed stone. Have a good idea of what you want before you go back to the jeweler. Ask for as much info as possible on the stone and definitely request a sarin report. Ask for a money back guarantee in writing if the stone appraises for less than what he says it is. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples. There are vendors here that can offer you a guaranteed, worry free purchase. Don''t settle for less!

Good luck - you are looking to make a sizeable investment in a sizeable stone. Utilize all that is available to you to make the best choice you can!

 

[ssn29]

MGR thanks for the info! I will take all those factors into account, it really is good having internet to inform you and this forum has taught me so much already

I''m going tomorrow to have a really good look, and then I''ll take a few days to think it over and make a decision.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Great! I wish you all the luck in the world with your purchase and can''t wait to see what you choose.

Happy hunting!!

 

[Tuckins1]

I bought an un-certed stone from a jeweler a while back... THe store had a trade-in trade-up policy. The stone looked nice and it wasn''t as expensive as others. If it looks good and the store is reputable, I say who cares?

 

[MMT]

Ditto

 

[ssn29]

Well I decided to stick with a certified stone! But that decision is mainly because I saw one that I really like, but its HRD. Never heard of it.. Is that a good lab? Also, I''m a little concerned that the color is H. I know its considered ''white'', and you guys have probably answered this a hundred times, but will it appear tinted?? I''m just worried to have a stone with a yellowish hue! The one I saw its 2.51 so I thought maybe the larger size would show the color more.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

HRD is a good lab, and "H" is a fine color.

Don''t be afraid of it. Check it out with your eyes, and make the decision.

 

[facetedjewel]

I also have bought an uncertified stone from a jeweler with a 100% trade up policy. However, the problem lies when you go to trade up and the jeweler is not willing or able to find the stone you are looking for. Then what do you do? I''m stuck with choosing a different shaped stone than what I want but keeping the 100% resale of my old uncert. stone, or taking a big hit on it trading with someone else. That''s not something alot of people think about when they read these 100% trade up policies. They are not all what they seem! It''s extremely frustrating is what it is!

 

[Diamond*Dana]

I have bought uncertified stones, and it really doesn''t bother me if there is a cert or not. My three stone ring has three uncerted stones, but I will say that they were purchased through a very good friend who is a jeweler (has been for a very long time). He purchased the stones through his "diamond guy" and he put the ring together in his basement, lol. I know that sounds crazy, but he seriously has all the tools in his home and only works in a shop part time since he is semi retired. He wanted to save us some money so he did not want us coming to the shop

.

He did ask that I get the ring independently appraised, and I did, and it all checked out wonderfully!