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UGH! Imagine being killed by your own dogs!

I read that earlier today too. Something isn’t right about that story. Her Dad waited a day to notify police she hadn’t returned from walking them? And why would they randomly attack her? It just doesn’t make sense. I’m pretty convinced her dogs DID do it, but why?
 
When I read that story the other day, something didn't feel right. They didn't mention if the dogs had blood on them. They didn't say anything about the dogs dispositions based on friends' or family members' perceptions. It's possible they didn't kill her but some other dog/s did. It's also possible they did kill her but it is unusual for such a thing to happen without prior clues and for no reason whatsoever.
 
Matata said:
When I read that story the other day, something didn't feel right. They didn't mention if the dogs had blood on them. They didn't say anything about the dogs dispositions based on friends' or family members' perceptions. It's possible they didn't kill her but some other dog/s did. It's also possible they did kill her but it is unusual for such a thing to happen without prior clues and for no reason whatsoever.
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I’ve read one report where her friend said no way her dogs would kill her as she’d raised them from pups and they weren’t trained to be fighters.

The police so far have said that it was a grizzly scene, bloody clothes strewn everywhere, the dogs were guarding her body, she had defensive wounds on her hands and arms, and she had puncture wounds on her throat and skull. I hope they swab her dogs mouths for DNA though as other dogs could have killed her. But then again her dogs probably would have attacked those dogs and have battle wounds, so I don’t know. It just doesn’t seem as simple and they’re reporting it to be.
 
I agree that something is off about this one, but certainly any chance to write about pitbull violence in this country will be taken advantage of.
 
While most sources say that dogs called "pit bulls" are not any one specific breed, and that no breed of dog is inherently dangerous (rather, bad owners are what make dogs dangerous), it is fact that when a fatal dog attack occurs, the dog is most likely called a pit bull.

There is at least one organization that supports a ban on pit bulls, among other policies.
https://www.dogsbite.org/dogsbite-about.php
 
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sonnyjane said:
I agree that something is off about this one, but certainly any chance to write about pitbull violence in this country will be taken advantage of.
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Uh-oh, that may have been me and honestly I don't know anything about dog breeds! But I researched pit bull attacks a bit when my daughter was younger. She had a kindergarten friend that was attacked by the family dog and had a permanent scar on her face from it. The family seemed quite normal (not "bad" owners). The dog was a pit bull. I didn't allow my daughter to play at the friend's house.
 
sonnyjane said:
You wanna back up your “facts” about dog attacks being “most likely caused by pit bulls”?

I figured I’ll give you a chance to take it back before this gets ugly.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States#Fatalities_reported_in_2017

Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, but that's all I've got. No need to get ugly, I'm not on any crusade here.

edited to add: If you feel the need to defend pit bulls you should start with the dogsbite.org people as they are the ones advocating bans and neutering.
 
Maria D said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States#Fatalities_reported_in_2017

Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, but that's all I've got. No need to get ugly, I'm not on any crusade here.

edited to add: If you feel the need to defend pit bulls you should start with the dogsbite.org people as they are the ones advocating bans and neutering.
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I deleted my comment because when I read your comment more closely, you said "fatal". That part in recent years is true - when there is a fatal attack, many are attributed to pits. But they are not responsible for the most attacks. I deleted because I misread it.

I apologize. I should have read more carefully the first time, but this is something I'm very passionate about and I was seeing red. I am one of those people that absolutely agrees there's no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.
 
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I love dogs and have four but I would not have a pit bull in my house. Pit bulls have a high incidence of dog on dog attacks, I think sometimes when a child is bitten it's because they are in the middle of this type of situation and unable to escape. Our insurance also wouldn't allow it, when I worked in insurance every company had its "Restricted Breed" list Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, Dobermans and German Shepherds were on every one.

They are also extremely muscular. Our neighbor has a Bull Terrier that probably weighs less than my Australian/Golden mix but can knock over my 6'3 over 200lb husband. So IMO that disposition with other dogs along with that degree of strength is not a good combo.
 
I wonder whether it's genetics, or how some owners of these breeds raise and train them.
Classic nature or nurture question.
Perhaps some of each.
Probably no way to know on an individual basis.

One thing is for sure.
Physics.
A larger and more powerful animal can inflict more damage then a smaller weaker one, regardless of how it was raised or trained.

Equality does not extend to animals of vastly different physical capabilities.
Yes, I know chihuahuas can be very hostile, but I doubt one could kill me.
 
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There has got to be more to this story. Something feels off. I hope they investigate carefully before just assuming the dogs did it.

As to pits vs other dogs... I can't go there. BSL is one of the things I feel very passionate about fighting.
 
My daughter and I had a discussion about this. We have been discussing violence in dogs and in Pit Bulls for a while. I happen to have a great fondness for Pit Bulls, but believe that all dogs have been bred for certain characteristics and that Pit Bulls have been bred to fight. Unless a Pit Bull comes from an unusual line, he will have a tendency to fight somewhere in his genetic makeup. But that can be bred out. European Dobermans have not had aggression bred out of them, but American ones have. As I said, dogs are bred for specific purposes. Mastiffs were bred to knock down (not maul and kill) poachers. Generally mastiffs are calm. Newfoundlands were bred to swim and pull fishing nets. They are gentle and great swimmers. Dogs have the temperaments they were bred to have. That's why I had a Golden Retriever puppy surprise me by bringing me shoes. Because I hadn't been aware of how much of what a dog was was in its nature and I had grown up with Cocker Spaniels.

My best friend has wolf hybrids and a Pit Bull and many rescues who are mixed breeds. The Pit Bull is a cream puff. He happens to be the only one who loves the cat. He took a stray cat under his wing and sleeps with the stray cat every night. I trust that Pit Bull and have slept in the bed with him at night. (I have also slept with two wolf hybrids I trust.) But that is an unusual Pit Bull. And my friend had another wolf hybrid who first greeted me by scratching my shoulder. I was lucky she was being held and was not within biting reach...even though we later became good friends. So I tend to treat animals as if they are what they are. ;))
 
StephanieLynn said:
They are also extremely muscular. Our neighbor has a Bull Terrier that probably weighs less than my Australian/Golden mix but can knock over my 6'3 over 200lb husband. So IMO that disposition with other dogs along with that degree of strength is not a good combo.
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They are strong but tiny. My Newfie used to play well with Pit Bulls when he was young. My best friend's Pit Bull hurled himself hard and he couldn't hurt Griffin, which was great. Griffin (my Newfie) couldn't play with many other dogs because he was too big. He was very, very careful around small dogs so as not to hurt them. He would take care not to step on them. But Pit Bulls could take it. On the other hand, Griffin would run to greet me and knock me down. Once the vet came and found both of us on the front lawn. He had greeted me, knocked me down, then lain down beside me to lick my face!

Deb
 
I love your Newfie stories Deb, they are beautiful gentle giants.
 
sonnyjane said:
snip... this is something I'm very passionate about and I was seeing red. I am one of those people that absolutely agrees there's no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.
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YES. 100% YES. There is no such thing as a bad dog per se but it is on the owners. The people who train them to attack. What makes the pit bull dangerous is their grip because they don't easily let go but they are not bad dogs by nature. Only by nuture. Tragic. I hate people who treat animals as possessions and I hate people who train animals to attack. I hope there is a special hell for such people where they can suffer as much as they have made these poor animals suffer.:cry2:

I will add that I have known and know many of the "pit bull" dogs and they can be the sweetest most loving dogs ever. No exaggeration. It isn't the breed that is bad. It is the human who owns them.
 
Sad, very sad...an attack by a bear came to mind but I guess they would have already ruled that out.
 
AGBF said:
Dogs have the temperaments they were bred to have. That's why I had a Golden Retriever puppy surprise me by bringing me shoes. Because I hadn't been aware of how much of what a dog was was in its nature and I had grown up with Cocker Spaniels.

I tend to treat animals as if they are what they are. ;))
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This. Dogs are animals, not humans. Continually attempting to treat them as humans - as in assuming they will respond exactly as humans do to human stimuli, is the height of self delusion, IMO. Heck, I'm like many in assuming the massive importance of good parenting, but even so, I know there are some people who have excellent upbringings yet turn out....bad. Just as we're not totally responsible for the choices of our kids, humans are not entirely in control of how an animal is either.

If you've not read about this experiment, here's a write-up.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...tten-russian-experiment-in-fox-domestication/
However, after that, I must add that I saw a show about dogs not terribly long ago, that actually had a large segment on this research. (I found out about it first from the show) However, what is missing from the write-up that was not in the show, was that once the foxes had been bred for either tameness or aggression, some of the kits were switched - aggressive ones to tame mothers and vice versa - checking that nature vs nurture thing. The socialization they received via mama fox, did not change their aggression levels at all.

You couldn't pay me to own a dog that's been bred for aggression. You simply can't know or control for the one thing that might set them off, and then the breeding is going to kick in and as in this case, you're dead.
 
Karen that is a valid point and no one is forcing you (or paying you) to own a dog bred for aggression. However I stand by the fact that if you breed a dog for aggression you will get an aggressive dog and if you take loving care of a pit bull you will get a wonderful dog. On this matter I am happy to agree to disagree.

https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-pit-bulls

While a dog’s genetics may predispose it to behave in certain ways, genetics do not exist in a vacuum. Rather, behavior develops through a complex interaction between environment and genetics. This is an especially important consideration when we look at an individual dog versus a breed. Many diverse and sometimes subtle factors influence the development of behavior, including, but not limited to, early nutrition, stress levels experienced by the mother during pregnancy, and even temperature in the womb. And when it comes to influencing the behavior of an individual dog, factors such as housing conditions and the history of social interactions play pivotal roles in behavioral development. The factors that feed into the expression of behavior are so inextricably intertwined that it’s usually impossible to point to any one specific influence that accounts for a dog becoming aggressive. This is why there is such variation in behavior between individual dogs, even when they are of the same breed and bred for the same purpose. Because of the impact of experience, the pit bull specifically bred for generations to be aggressive may not fight with dogs and the Labrador retriever bred to be a service dog may be aggressive toward people.

It is likely that that the vast majority of pit bull type dogs in our communities today are the result of random breeding—two dogs being mated without regard to the behavioral traits being passed on to their offspring. The result of random breeding is a population of dogs with a wide range of behavioral predispositions. For this reason it is important to evaluate and treat each dog, no matter its breed, as an individual.


Despite our best efforts, there will always be dogs of various breeds that are simply too dangerous to live safely in society. We can effectively address the danger posed by these dogs by supporting the passage and vigorous enforcement of laws that focus, not on breed, but on people’s responsibility for their dogs’ behavior, including measures that hold owners of all breeds accountable for properly housing, supervising and controlling their dogs. Breed neutral “dangerous dog” laws, “leash laws” that prohibit dogs from running loose off their owners’ property, and “anti chaining” laws can control the behavior of individual dogs and individual owners and thereby help reduce the risk of harm to people and other animals.


Laws that ban particular breeds of dogs do not achieve these aims and instead create the illusion, but not the reality, of enhanced public safety.


In a statement issued in 2013 President Obama said “[w]e don’t support breed-specific legislation—research shows that bans on certain types of dogs are largely ineffective and often a waste of public resources. And the simple fact is that dogs of any breed can become dangerous when they’re intentionally or unintentionally raised to be aggressive.”

All dogs, including pit bulls, are individuals. Treating them as such, providing them with the care, training and supervision they require, and judging them by their actions and not by their DNA or their physical appearance is the best way to ensure that dogs and people can continue to share safe and happy lives together.
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I also feel strongly about leash laws and owners being responsible for fenced yards or whatever they need to keep their dogs from getting loose. Any damage done by a dog should be the responsibility of the owner. Get that enforced and we would have a lot fewer attacks as people would actually train and manage their dogs rather than let them run loose.
 
Dog behavior is 100% genetic according to veterinary behaviorists. But, nurture vs nature is strong, and a dog with aggressive tendencies can be taught via behavior modification techniques not to act out.

We have two bulldogs, one is very dog aggressive. In the past, we've gone through two trainers, both of whom wanted to use e-collars.
I refuse to use any kind of negative training techniques and instead joined a group that's run by behaviorists and positive reinforcement trainers. We also started seeing a a doggie shrink aka, veterinary behaviorist.
After 5 months of de-sensitization, and counter-conditioning using positive reinforcement, I can trust him not to try to kill/lunge/bite other dogs.

Both of mine are bulldogs, both were raised in a very loving home and well socialized. But one hates and wants to kill other dogs, and the other just tolerates them.

I think breeds known for aggression need homes that undersrand what they may be capable of, and positive reinforcement training starting at puppyhood and continuing for the life of the dog is a must so that good behavior becomes the norm.
 
I've got 5 Scottish terriers, mostly a non aggressive breed and out of all of them, one of them I have now can be aggressive, so much so he fights with my other male dog, rips pieces of of him. Once trying to stop a fight he attacked me when I got in the middle (which you should never do but my other male dog who I love dearly was getting hurt). So yeah I kind of thing it's genetic because he has always been an A-hole of a dog, you can't take him out for a walk because he will suddenly just lose it if another dog comes up to him and go for their throat, I've never been able to train him to lose the aggression. I've had him desexed and he will still instigate a fight for no reason with another dog. The rest are great loving loyal happy little dogs so I don't think it's their humans. I've never owned another dog quite like him. He is so bad I've frequently thought about putting him down, but have never been able to bring myself to do it even after literally being mauled by him.

And yes I've tried drugs, sprays, a medicated what we call his happiness collar, it slows his negative behaviour down but he still isn't a particularly nice dog.
 
I can't imagine how this scenario went down... All I could think of is maybe she tripped while walking them and fell on one or both & they reacted? Or she got between them in a dog fight? I just can't picture walking your beloved pets & them turning on you for no reason.

Most Fatal dog attacks I've read about were committed by non neutered males or a multiple dogs.
Dogs have a pack mentality so if one dog attacks it's not uncommon for the other(s) to follow suit.

I must disagree that all dog attacks are because of bad owners. Many dogs have a natural instinct to protect. A friend rescued a 5 yr old doberman who had bitten a child. It was at a family party. A child took a fake blow up baseball bat & started hitting the family's child with it. Their family dog unfortunately came to his little persons defense and bit. He was not trained to attack. He was one of sweetest non aggressive dogs I've ever met.

I own a female rottweiler. She loves every dog & person big & small that she meets and has the best personality. We had at home training for her that she completed. Our trainer said she had an awesome temperament, not aggressive at all. She gets along with our 2 cats and has never tried to hurt them.
We've had her since 8 weeks, she's still a pup ( a big one ) at 6 mos.

That being said, I NEVER let her off leash in public & would never let her run loose. I introduce her to other people & dogs all the time so she stays socialized. She goes part time to doggy day care to interact & burn off extra energy. We've been very careful raising her and I go out in the yard with her even though it's fenced. She is a love bug but if she hears a weird noise she will bark & sometimes growl. It's in her nature to guard. She is already strong so I can imagine the kind of damage she "could" do. I take precautions every day (training, socializing, and smothering her with love) to make sure that never happens.
 
arkieb1 said:
I've got 5 Scottish terriers, mostly a non aggressive breed and out of all of them, one of them I have now can be aggressive, so much so he fights with my other male dog, rips pieces of of him. Once trying to stop a fight he attacked me when I got in the middle (which you should never do but my other male dog who I love dearly was getting hurt). So yeah I kind of thing it's genetic because he has always been an A-hole of a dog, you can't take him out for a walk because he will suddenly just lose it if another dog comes up to him and go for their throat, I've never been able to train him to lose the aggression. I've had him desexed and he will still instigate a fight for no reason with another dog. The rest are great loving loyal happy little dogs so I don't think it's their humans. I've never owned another dog quite like him. He is so bad I've frequently thought about putting him down, but have never been able to bring myself to do it even after literally being mauled by him.

And yes I've tried drugs, sprays, a medicated what we call his happiness collar, it slows his negative behaviour down but he still isn't a particularly nice dog.
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Some dogs really do have something off. A friend trains the most aggressive of aggressive dogs -- those who have serious history of human attacks. Those who can be trained go to a family (also trained to keep up on good handling techniques). Those who can't stay with her. Not many of them, but they do exist.

Thank you for taking such great care of your dogs and being responsible!
 
I can definitely image a couple of scenarios where this might have happened. There is the tripping scenario above. She might have brushed against one dog, and the dog attacked the other dog for it, and she got in between then one or both set on her. Very horrible, but I've read one story where something similar occurred. I've even seen it in my chihuahua guys, to a much less severe degree. If you set one off and they blame the other, they might go for each other. My dogs don't make physical contact, just growls. Could have been a wild animal encounter. Something definitely went wrong, and she wasn't capable of handling the situation. Very sad.
 
Pit bulls and pit bull mixes make up a big percentage of shelter dogs where I live so most of the pits and part pits I've encountered are rescue dogs. Rescues can be a challenge because it's hard to know what that dog may have experienced, and pits can be a particular challenge because they are often chosen by their original owners for bad reasons (fighting, to make the owner look tough, etc.) and they are so strong and tenacious. We had an incident in the neighborhood about a month ago where a rescue pit attacked another dog while both were being walked by their owners on leashes. The owner simply was no match for the pit's strength and was not able to control her dog. The other dog was seriously hurt, but not killed.

When I was out walking my sweet Lab, I mostly gave pits and pit mixes a wide berth. I wasn't willing to risk an encounter unless the dog was showing very obvious signs of friendliness or we already knew that dog was friendly. Plus, in my experience, most people don't know what to do if their dog starts to attack so they aren't much help if trouble starts. That was certainly true when a rescue Akita (100 lbs or more) who lived down the block body-checked my sweet girl about 15 feet when she was just a few months old. Or when a couple much younger than me were dog-sitting a male bullmastiff, and had tucked the loop of his leash under the leg of an empty chair at a sidewalk cafe. My dog and I walked by, the mastiff pulled that chair over, trapped my dog between the curb and a parked car, and started to attack. The couple were frozen in place, holding their own little dog, so I had to save her. You haven't lived until you've stepped in and pulled a 120-lb dog off your poor defenseless dog by yanking as hard as you can on a prong collar! People say not to get in the middle of it, but I wasn't going to stand by and watch my dog get seriously hurt or killed, and no one else was willing to help. Both my sweet girl and I were hurt - she from a couple of bites, me with bruised fingers from that damn collar. And the dog-sitters never even apologized! They said they had no idea their friends' dog was capable of that.
 
Out of my 5 Scotties, the aggressive one had a perfect start in life, good breeder no history of abuse. My other male Scotty is a dog I rescued, he had been beaten repeatedly and neglected and it took me over 2 months to even be able to pat him without him freaking out but now he is the most gentle loving soul, so genetics has to come into play. Despite being small and stocky Scotties have the same muzzle size as a Doberman they have huge teeth and can do quite a lot of damage if you get into a fight with one.

I can see how if you already have a genetically aggressive dog and are either breeding for things like dog fighting, protection or specifically to keep aggressive traits and then you put those dogs in the hands of stupid humans, or situations where the dogs don't know what to do and they panic - it would be a recipe for disaster.
 
I think sometimes people also mean well but get in over their head. My neighbors are a good example, they got an Italian Mastiff about six months ago, they are nice people but that is too much dog for them. They also had three young children. This dog is very sweet but headstrong and doesn't listen, it won't be cute when she is 125 lbs as predicted. They also purchased her off Craigslist...yeah.

Has to be about ten years ago another neighbor had a pit (Lady)that he tied outside all the time (hate this but anyways) the dog broke her chain and I happened to be in the front yard our house with either our Sheltie or Corgi at the time and Lady comes barreling across the street a snarling mess of a thing. I quickly grabbed the dog and ran into the house barely getting the storm door shut before she got to him. It was scary, Our dog would have been a goner.
 
StephanieLynn said:
I think sometimes people also mean well but get in over their head. My neighbors are a good example, they got an Italian Mastiff about six months ago, they are nice people but that is too much dog for them. They also had three young children. This dog is very sweet but headstrong and doesn't listen, it won't be cute when she is 125 lbs as predicted. They also purchased her off Craigslist...yeah.

Has to be about ten years ago another neighbor had a pit (Lady)that he tied outside all the time (hate this but anyways) the dog broke her chain and I happened to be in the front yard our house with either our Sheltie or Corgi at the time and Lady comes barreling across the street a snarling mess of a thing. I quickly grabbed the dog and ran into the house barely getting the storm door shut before she got to him. It was scary, Our dog would have been a goner.
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I think that is exactly it, people buy dogs from unknown origins and put them in situations with small children, and just expect the best, or don't exercise them enough - chaining a dog all day IMHO is cruel. They think that because they have never hit or hurt them they will be O.K in unknown or unusual situations. Dogs that have any type of aggression or that can be an aggressive breed need exercise and humans willing to train them when it is O.K and not O.K to act in certain ways. A lot of people buy certain types of dogs but do not have the time or are not willing to spend enough time with them training in how to act around other people and other animals and generally exercising them properly.
 
Sad. They released more information. I won't link here as it is easy to find if you want to read. I will summarize below without the details.

The general idea is that it almost certainly was her dogs. They ruled out larger animals. Still doing due diligence to be certain it wasn't a person, but highly unlikely.

Her "beloved" dogs who were always indoors and loved had been staying with her father recently (not mentioned why). He left them outside in a small kennel all the time and people said he wasn't taking care of them.
 
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