Two questions on "ideal cut" and HCA

[Regular Guy]

1) In principle, is there any difference between saying a diamond is "ideal," vs. saying it scores between 0 - 2 on the HCA?

2) In practice, is there any reason to spend more money on a diamond that scores both well on the HCA, and also, is measured as ideal, regardless of the system that measures/defines "ideal cut" (since a premium is paid to do the latter)?

Please check your work. Answers to #1 & #2 should be the same.

Thanks!

P.S. If you like, further below you'll see some summary comments from my diamond buying experience.

 

[Patty]

----------------
Please check your work. Answers to #1 & #2 should be the same.

Thanks!----------------

LOL!

Um...Mr. Z?, I don't get it.

 

[Regular Guy]

Sorry to be even a little obscure.

Trying again...

1) If a diamond's performance is key, is having an "ideal score" of 0-2 different IN ANY WAY than having an "ideal cut stone?

2) If not, why pay for both?

 

[Lynn B]

ONLY a newbie myself... but if I understand your question correctly, you are asking if a diamond has to SAY it's an ideal cut to actually BE an ideally cut, well-performing stone?

If that's your question, I would answer no... I would think (hope!) that there are probably LOTS of diamonds out there that would score well on the HCA and be excellent performers, but for whatever reason were never certed or marketed as "Ideal Cut". For example, I know there are stones that don't quite meet the strict criteria to be called true H & A's, but they exhibit some hearts or some arrows, and are still very beautiful diamonds. Also, as I understand it, some diamonds can fall quite short of "ideal" specs... but because of the way their crowns and pavilions still complement each other, they can be great looking stones.

I think that's probably why everyone here always recommends seeing the stone yourself, and observing it in all light conditions, as the best and final "test".

Just my VERY HUMBLE 2 cents!

Lynn

 

[Regular Guy]

OK, I think I'm mostly preaching to the choir here. Thank you, Lynn.

I bought my wife's replacement engagement ring last month, with significant assistance from this Pricescope resource. So...I wanted to take the opportunity to pay back some to the community who has helped me, and share some of the particulars of what I have learned.

1) HCA (and Pricescope) rules!

Only recently I was reminded of this again on this forum, and I think that -- should there be a next time to consult this resource -- I may go right to the "search by cut quality" database available at the top left of the web site, initiate, and perhaps conclude my search for a central diamond right there. Keep things simple that way!

2) The devil you know. (This may be particularly useful to anyone living near Washington DC)

Since I am very satisfied with the outcome of my search (a 3 stone ring, with center stone .9 carats, GIA certed, G, VS2, FIC, HCA = .9 and two .25 carat sidestones, with a white gold ring, at $4200), I should be cautious in trying to do anything I did this time -- any differently next time.

Having found this web site, I sought out an internet vendor close to DC, and found Jim at Dirt Cheap Diamonds. He spent a long time with my wife and I -- over 2 hours -- and has been the best contact I've been associated with at this site, with respect to communicating via e-mail. Also, although his selection of rings to accompany his diamonds were perhaps simple, I thought they were quite affordable, and nice.

Once the ring was completed, it was sent to Martin Fuller's office in Northern Virginia, where one of Mr. Fuller's assistants, Etta, both confirmed the goodness of the ring, and as well, left a positive lasting impression concerning the nature of one of the inclusions in the diamond, describing it as the little "bird," and surely I know that that is the way she would be certain that was the same diamond, were she to see it again (whereas I am thankful for having discovered the assist a 20x loupe can provide to read the wonderful GIA inscription). Also, at my request, Etta was quite willing to include in her final appraisal both the serin data provided by the vendor (even though she hadn't confirmed it), and as well, a print out from Pricescope of the HCA results associated with my diamond.

Finally, the ring needed some fine tuning once in hand (Etta had noted some problems with the workmanship), with one prong sticking up, a couple prongs needing tightening, and the diamond out of alignment, so that the GIA inscription was not fully visible (the latter of which I did specifically ask Jim in advance of the purchase to make sure would be visible once set). For the good, a swell place Fuller's office recommends was in the neighborhood, Quest Manufacturing, and although it took the afternoon to repair, they did it the same day, not only putting the diamond and prongs where they should be, but improving their design -- as the manager (Peter?) described it.

3) Being in the right place at the right time. Not much as a strategy, but useful in getting the diamond you want. No, really, I will just add to this report of my buying experience that you can only go with what you know, and as frequently as not, this will be changing...Short of that, some things to watch for...

4) The devil you don't know....

Since I'd be motivated next time to use that "search by cut quality database," I might find myself going to most any vendor. But a lot of good things seem to point to White Flash as an attractive one. Don't they uniquely have a "value" oriented line, where they bring in house diamonds that they take the time to look at, record the crown and pavilion angles, and then recommend -- having seen them? Running that search by cut quality today, most of the entries around .9 carats are theirs. Also, I understand they do their own engineering of their rings, putting the diamond together with their setting at the same facility, and this function of control could serve to solve some of the problems I had experienced earlier with DCD, since I understand Jim at Dirt Cheap sends his diamonds out to a facility in Texas he has a relationship with.

Next time, in calling for assistance from an appraiser, I might try to get the assistance from someone like David Atlas or William Lieberum, attending to notes on Pricescope for a recommendation. I'd consider using Mr. Fuller's office, as well, (if he'd consider having me again) -- after assuring myself of a couple of things. First, before the stone is mounted, since I understand that the difference between a well cut diamond and a poorly cut one is less than a couple of degrees for the crown and pavilion angles, I'd want to understand that the equipment used was appropriate to measure that tolerance, (and I understand the Diamond Proportion Analyzer, currently in use there, while standard with GIA, may not be). Also, after the stone was mounted -- especially since I am likely to be purchasing a diamond that is not considered "ideal" by the book, (taking advantage of the disparities in measurement that allow well cut diamonds to fall through the cracks, but be identified as the well cut diamonds that they are by the HCA measurement) -- I would want to know that the resulting appraisal has the best chance of documenting the quality of the cut, with respect to its cut grade -- so that a diamond as well cut could be replaced, should a loss ensue. It is possible, for example, that although my own appraisal didn't include this, a specific request to include a cut grading system as part of their report (whether AGA or AGS) would get this done.

I did review with both Jim Schultz at DCD and Martin Fuller at his office about the nature of the concerns I had working with each of them, and so I think they shouldn't find this report coming from out of left field. As I've reviewed above under #2, if either or both would have me again to work with, I'd be the luckier for it.

5) Ideas beyond...

Since I might want to use resources wholly outside the DC area, including Whiteflash, or Richard Sherwood, is there anyone that would be able to look at the diamond with me locally, tell me it is the same one, and hold my hand? Jim Schultz and Martin Fuller may both be available for this, but might not be in the picture.

Ira Kramer is local, and has been recommended by multiple sources. He's listed under local jewelers for Rockville Maryland, under the Diamond Exchange. Presuming he's available, although he'd want to sell you the diamond himself, (and maybe I should give him the chance!), I wonder if he couldn't be a local consultant, and work for an hourly fee with any questions. Who knows!

Closing thoughts.

Hopefully, I'll only be an occasional visitor to the site now. Thanks for having had me. Leonid, you've been especially swell. Of course, on behalf of my wife, thanks for creating a resource that allows motivated consumers to take the diamond buying purchase decision into their own -- newly capable -- hands.

With best wishes,