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Twinning Wisp reaching girdle- issues?

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D2B

Brilliant_Rock
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Feb 10, 2007
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Hi

A stone I am considering has several Twinning wisps, 3 of which reach the girdle. Can this be a durability issue? Is there any consensus, from what I gather the verdict is conflicted? so perhaphs this is an issue of durability mind clean for me, as I am a bit of a worrier, or there really is nothing to worry about?

The vendor says it is eyeclean

thanks heaps
pb
 
If the wisps and graining are falling within the VS grade or better, it''s probably OK.
But since you mention that the stone is "eye clean", I''m guessing that you''re looking at an SI2.
Do you have a plot of the inclusions?
 
Get it check out by an independent appraiser if you are worry about it. But if a stone can be cut and polish, you are unlikely to apply any greater stress in normal everyday activity than it has already experience in that process.

Buy an insurance and enjoy the stone.
 
Date: 8/6/2009 7:15:15 AM
Author:D2B
Hi

A stone I am considering has several Twinning wisps, 3 of which reach the girdle. Can this be a durability issue? Is there any consensus, from what I gather the verdict is conflicted? so perhaphs this is an issue of durability mind clean for me, as I am a bit of a worrier, or there really is nothing to worry about?

The vendor says it is eyeclean

thanks heaps
pb
Click to expand...
Apparently it is rare that these are a durability issue and expert opinions can vary on this matter by all accounts, but if you are concerned get an independant appraiser to check it out.

https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

What is the clarity grade of the diamond?
 
It is an SI2, and a bit out of my normal comfort zone.

Love the rest of the stone, but those twinnings are playing with my mind, but then maybey I am thinking about it too much
26.gif


db2
 
If it's the twinning wisps that are making the stone fall within the clarity grade of SI2, I would probably not buy such a stone. But it might be that the wisps are VS grade and it's the size or location of other inclusions that are making the SI2.
I would not buy the stone without at least an inspection of the plot of inclusions to see roughly what is inside that stone and where the inclusions are located. Without seeing the plot of inclusions, there's no telling what other nasties are in there.
I worry that "eye clean" SI2's are riddled with clouds that dull the light performance. If I were buying an SI2, I'd try to find one that had mainly small crystal inclusions located away from the centre of the stone or on the underside.

To be honest, I doubt that I would buy the stone under any circumstances - even if it was a super-ideal cut.
 
Date: 8/6/2009 8:55:48 AM
Author: D2B
It is an SI2, and a bit out of my normal comfort zone.

Love the rest of the stone, but those twinnings are playing with my mind, but then maybey I am thinking about it too much
26.gif


db2
Click to expand...
Get an appraiser to check it out.
 
Question: Is there a way to determine if the twinning wisps are the grade-setters?

Do AGS or GIA reports have some not-so-obvious way of indicating this?
Or is it up to the observer's grading skills to figure out that the other inclusions are not serious enough to grade this diamond SI2?
 
Date: 8/6/2009 10:58:39 AM
Author: Moh 10
Question: Is there a way to determine if the twinning wisps are the grade-setters?

Do AGS or GIA reports have some not-so-obvious way of indicating this?
Or is it up to the observer''s grading skills to figure out that the other inclusions are not serious enough to grade this diamond SI2?
Click to expand...
It would say on the clarity map if TW were the grade makers, if in the comments section then those would be just mentioned for the sake of completeness.
 
I would say the chances are 99% that you''re fine.

For peace of mind about the other 1%, get an appraiser''s opinion.

Insurance takes care of the rest.
 
So that''s one clue, grade-setters are always on the map and never merely mentioned in the comments section?

If so, the next question is if TWs are on the map but so are other inclusions, is there a way to know which is the grade-setter?

(Also, I believe some stones may not have one grade-setting anomaly, rather grade is set by the combination of several anomalies.)

Still, is there any way to know now serious TWs are by looking at the report?
 
The inclusions are listed below the plot in order of seriousness I think.
 
Date: 8/6/2009 11:26:43 AM
Author: Moh 10
So that''s one clue, grade-setters are always on the map and never merely mentioned in the comments section?

If so, the next question is if TWs are on the map but so are other inclusions, is there a way to know which is the grade-setter?

(Also, I believe some stones may not have one grade-setting anomaly, rather grade is set by the combination of several anomalies.)

Still, is there any way to know now serious TWs are by looking at the report?
Click to expand...
Inclusions are listed in order of significance, if clouds are the major inclusion followed by a feather for example then it would say below the plotting diagram

cloud
feather and so on.
 
Date: 8/6/2009 11:24:17 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I would say the chances are 99% that you''re fine.

For peace of mind about the other 1%, get an appraiser''s opinion.

Insurance takes care of the rest.
Click to expand...
Rich says it well here.

Twinning wisps are just another type of inclusion, and I have never known them to be better or worse than any other type of inclusion. However there are usually a bunch of them when they are present.

They are especially common in trillions as often the twinning results in a shape of rough that is called a macle. This is a flat shape of rough that is not conducive to cutting rounds economically. They will often be the grade setter in trillions and are often totally eye clean, resulting in some great values without loss of durability. They are much less worrisome to me than a similarly sized cleavage. (Which would probably have resulted in an easy I1 or I2 clarity grade.) (Referring to stones I have seen, I have not seen the diamond being discussed. I am just trying to add my general opinion of twinning wisps.)

Wink
 
Thanks Stone-Cold, I did not know that.

So for every mark on the map there will be a name for that type of inclusion in the list below the map?
 
Lorelei

Yes, in the first GIA cert that you've linked, the two big feathers are the grade setters (SI1). The remaining inclusions are VS or smaller.

In the second, I'm surprised that it didn't fall into the I1 grade, with such a big crystal under the table, but perhaps the crystal is near-invisible colour.
 
Date: 8/6/2009 12:18:01 PM
Author: Lorelei
Date: 8/6/2009 12:13:35 PM

Author: Moh 10

Thanks Stone-Cold, I did not know that.


So for every mark on the map there will be a name for that type of inclusion in the list below the map?
Click to expand...

Yes, if you check these reports out Moh it will show this


http://www.goodoldgold.com/items/5978/GIA.jpg


http://www.whiteflash.com/pimg/certificates/ci_GIA.6107738862.jpg


http://www.jamesallen.com/certs/B206-1008CER.JPG
Click to expand...

Cool.
I see now.

In two reports crystal and feather are listed in a different order, apparently depending on severity.
I thought they were listed in no particular order.
Thanks.
 
Date: 8/6/2009 12:22:27 PM
Author: FB.
In the second, I''m surprised that it didn''t fall into the I1 grade, with such a big crystal under the table, but perhaps the crystal is near-invisible colour.
Click to expand...
Clarity plot only marks the location, shape and extend of the inclusion, not how severe it is, so it can not be use to judge what clarity grade a stone is given.
 
Date: 8/6/2009 12:26:55 PM
Author: Moh 10

Date: 8/6/2009 12:18:01 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 8/6/2009 12:13:35 PM

Author: Moh 10

Thanks Stone-Cold, I did not know that.


So for every mark on the map there will be a name for that type of inclusion in the list below the map?
Click to expand...

Yes, if you check these reports out Moh it will show this


http://www.goodoldgold.com/items/5978/GIA.jpg


http://www.whiteflash.com/pimg/certificates/ci_GIA.6107738862.jpg


http://www.jamesallen.com/certs/B206-1008CER.JPG
Click to expand...

Cool.
I see now.

In two reports crystal and feather are listed in a different order, apparently depending on severity.
I thought they were listed in no particular order.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Most welcome dear chap! Yes they are listed in order of importance.
 
Stone cold

In my experience, the inclusion plot gives a fairly good (but not perfect) idea of the inclusion size and position.
I've "mapped" a reasonable number of plots with my 7.5x/15x magnifier and generally the plots are fairly good. That's the biggest crystal marker I've seen for a SI1 (and possibly SI2's!).
If it managed to be a SI1, I would expect it to be large but transparent/reflective (or something like that) which makes it hard to see.
 
Date: 8/6/2009 12:22:27 PM
Author: FB.
Lorelei

Yes, in the first GIA cert that you've linked, the two big feathers are the grade setters (SI1). The remaining inclusions are VS or smaller.

In the second, I'm surprised that it didn't fall into the I1 grade, with such a big crystal under the table, but perhaps the crystal is near-invisible colour.
Click to expand...
Clarity grading is subjective and based on many factors including but not limited to -

colour
size
visibility
type
location

all of these things and more the grader takes into consideration to set the grade, you really can't tell going by the clarity maps.

Also sometimes a grader has to decide with some diamonds which are borderline which way to go, a harsh grader might lean towards a lower clarity grade, a less strict might award a grade higher and so on, what is called a ' high" or ' low' SI grade.
 
Lorelei

I agree that the plot of inclusions is rarely perfect, but it generally gives a good idea of the inclusions.
If you fancy a bit of fun, I reckon that I (and probably many others on here) could guess fairly closely to the GIA-assigned grade.
Perhaps you could start a new topic for fun; "guess the clarity grade" - you put up ten anonymous diamond inclusion maps, people post their their best guesses today and then tomorrow evening you reveal the answers.
...or I''ll do it, if you like.
1.gif
 
It still means nothing if you do not know the severity of the inclusion. There will always be outlier, exceptions that will make any attempt at linking the messiness in an inclusion plot to a clarity grade void.

So there is totally no point in this exercise.
 
But most of the time you can get a good idea of the inclusions. Not perfect, but good enough for most diamonds - and good enough to reject risky ones and shortlist those that are less risky.
It's only really in the SI1/SI2 grades that inclusions become "iffy" as to their importance and asking for an expert check might be needed.
Above SI1 is too small to matter in almost all cases. Below SI2 is too significant in almost all cases.
 
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