Indylady
Ideal_Rock
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Tubal ligation for a cat?
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Indylady
Ideal_Rock
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Crasru, I know exactly where you are coming from. It is in an animal''s nature to mate and reproduce, and I wouldn''t want my pet animals to keep from experiencing all of the things they were meant to. Having pets is not simply for my convenient entertainment; they''re animals and I respect them, and I also would not spay or neuter my pets.
That being said, I also don''t have pets for this same reason. If I lived on a farm or a large amount of land, and knew that my cats or dogs would have a place to run around and just be cats and dogs and have kittens and puppies which I would be able to take care of, then I would, but right now, I consider having a pet to be a large responsibility which I''m not prepared to take on yet.
I don''t think Crasru is naieve, uninformed, or culturally biased. Its a different way of thinking, and obviously very few posters are willing to think outside of the box. Crasru accounted for all of the kittens from her cats...I don''t think there is any sense in wondering about the 72 other cats that might come from those kittens.
That being said, I also don''t have pets for this same reason. If I lived on a farm or a large amount of land, and knew that my cats or dogs would have a place to run around and just be cats and dogs and have kittens and puppies which I would be able to take care of, then I would, but right now, I consider having a pet to be a large responsibility which I''m not prepared to take on yet.
I don''t think Crasru is naieve, uninformed, or culturally biased. Its a different way of thinking, and obviously very few posters are willing to think outside of the box. Crasru accounted for all of the kittens from her cats...I don''t think there is any sense in wondering about the 72 other cats that might come from those kittens.
Brown.Eyed.Girl
Ideal_Rock
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Oh please... there''s a difference between simple questions and questions that make you want to bang your head against the wall because of the OP''s ignorance (this is NOT directed at you Crasru, btw)
Crasru, there are a lot of things you can say about valuing cultural differences, but if those cultural differences lead, in this PARTICULAR case, to making life harder for your beloved pet (like her going into heat but not being able to do anything about it, and suffering as a result), I think you need to look past the "this is how it''s done in X country" argument.
As Elrohwen said, you seem to be against spaying because YOU don''t feel comfortable with it. But guess what? You''re not the one going through this procedure. And yet you still feel that you''d rather tie your cat''s tubes, allowing her to go through heat? THAT seems selfish to me. Kind of like not taking your pet to the vet because you don''t like going to doctors...doesn''t seem right, right?
And I applaud you for finding homes for the 12 kittens. At the same time, with so many other cats being born on the streets or in shelters, wouldn''t it have been better that your cat had been spayed from the beginning?
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Crasru, when I was young we had a cat that I loved dearly. She was never fixed, and had many litters, only some of which were placed with friends. Kitty litter might have been invented by then but it was unheard of where I lived, so guess what? She was an indoor/outdoor cat. That was normal then, where I lived, and among our friends. I would not have an unfixed cat or dog now, and neither would my parents. Times change and attitudes change.
As to your question: I lived with a cat in heat just once, through just one cycle. All I can say is never again... I was absolutely miserable! She was an informal rescue kitty and I didn't realize that she had never been spayed. Two sleepless nights later I called the vet begging for kitty prozac when he suggested that she was probably in heat, and I had her spayed as soon as I could after that. I wish I could say that it changed her personality, but she's pretty much just as ornery today as she was when I got her! It looks like spaying has health benefits that tubal ligation doesn't, and it probably costs less to boot, so I'd go with the spaying.
BTW I learned that there are things you can do to make things more comfortable for a cat in heat (and her human companions!) but they don't have the other health benefits associated with spaying.
As to your question: I lived with a cat in heat just once, through just one cycle. All I can say is never again... I was absolutely miserable! She was an informal rescue kitty and I didn't realize that she had never been spayed. Two sleepless nights later I called the vet begging for kitty prozac when he suggested that she was probably in heat, and I had her spayed as soon as I could after that. I wish I could say that it changed her personality, but she's pretty much just as ornery today as she was when I got her! It looks like spaying has health benefits that tubal ligation doesn't, and it probably costs less to boot, so I'd go with the spaying.
BTW I learned that there are things you can do to make things more comfortable for a cat in heat (and her human companions!) but they don't have the other health benefits associated with spaying.
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Just because someone doesnt agree with you doesnt make it ignorance, or make it wrong. The world would be a much better place if more people realized that.
And back on topic away from those trying to stir the pot. In the OPs main post, she was not saying she wasnt going to spay her kitty, or asking if she should spay her kitty or not, she was posting about 1 way to do it. Its obvious she wants to do spay her.
And back on topic away from those trying to stir the pot. In the OPs main post, she was not saying she wasnt going to spay her kitty, or asking if she should spay her kitty or not, she was posting about 1 way to do it. Its obvious she wants to do spay her.
swimmer
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Sorry, I'm just now catching the "back in Russia it is normal to not spay/neuter" theme here. Yeah, and the thousands and thousands of mangy stray cats roaming the streets of Moscow and every little industrial area that I have passed through two and five years ago didn't look so happy. They were starving, matted fur, miserably screaming in hunger and pain, and too dangerous for me to approach with food (though yes, I do get my Rabies vaccination boosters!) I would not call Russia or any country where spay/neuter is not embraced "humane or natural" since the bands of feral cats and dogs in many areas roam freely covered with fleas and disease with no hope of medical treatment. Darwinian yes, a good life, no. Areas where "fixing" is the norm don't tend to have strays on the street or kids getting Rabies; spay/neuter saves future lives and keeps the population in check. Those poor strays in Russia were not healthy or happy or living in any "natural" sense of the word, they are scavengers fighting for their lives and it is not healthy for them or the humans who condemn them to such horrific lives.
Just wanted to bring in the reality since happy kittens frolicking on the farm is just a fantasy...
ETA: when I was young and living in rural area (not in the US) people would dump their kittens and dogs at our gates and it was so sad in the summer when on a designated night, bowls of anti-freeze would be put out to kill those with no homes so that disease wouldn't spread. Just heartbreaking, I still remember the screaming cat who wasn't paralyzed instantly...
Just wanted to bring in the reality since happy kittens frolicking on the farm is just a fantasy...
ETA: when I was young and living in rural area (not in the US) people would dump their kittens and dogs at our gates and it was so sad in the summer when on a designated night, bowls of anti-freeze would be put out to kill those with no homes so that disease wouldn't spread. Just heartbreaking, I still remember the screaming cat who wasn't paralyzed instantly...
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Hudson_Hawk
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must be my pregnancy hormones but this just made me tear up
elrohwen
Ideal_Rock
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Why shouldn't we worry about those kittens who may be born just a year after their parents are born? The reason there are so many animals in shelters is exactly this reason. I don't think animals are in shelters because people in the US are totally unfeeling uncaring people. I think animals are in shelters because people care, but don't do what they should to take care of their animals. There's a difference between caring about and loving your pet, and doing what is best for your pet. They do not always coincide. Crasru's cat may indirectly mother hundreds of cats in her local area and there cannot possibly be enough nice families to take them in. This is something that anyone who breeds their animal must consider - it is naive to push it away and say these future kittens are not important; that it's not your problem.
purrfectpear
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bee*
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Date: 2/15/2010 11:35:32 AM
Author: purrfectpear
I would love to sit in on that conversation where she explains to the vet that her cat needs ''sex''
Would you believe that we had a client come in with her female cat one afternoon asking would we have any male patients in that her cat could mate with?
In Ireland we don''t do tubal ligation frequently-actually in college they don''t go over it in our surgery classes at all. I agree with all the previous posters in terms of the benefits, both in terms of their long term health and also mentally. It really is kinder to neuter and spey them. They recover from the operation extremely quickly-we do at least five of these operations a day in work and I can''t recall the last time we had any complications and we''ve never had a client come back to say that their pets behaviour changed negatively. I didn''t hesitate to neuter my furbabies and there has been no change in their behaviour.
iheartscience
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But see that''s the thing-it IS ignorant and wrong to delay spaying and neutering, and according to FACTS, spaying before a female cat goes into heat is healthier for the cat. Same goes for vaccinating your kid. Not vaccinating your kid does harm to your kid and to other people. It''s not just a difference of opinion-it''s ignorant and wrong. You obviously don''t seem to realize that facts are just that-FACTS. You can''t just disregard them or make your own facts up, sadly!
So no-the world WOULD NOT be a better place if more people thought there was no right or wrong way to do anything.
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OMG seriously? You are still ruffled over the vaccine thread? Do you really think you are going to make me or anyone think "wow, shes right!" by attacks, and bringing up dead subects in unrelated threads? I dont agree with alot of things people do or believe, but I accept our differences and keep on movin' on in life because my I know my ideas and beliefs are no more important or 'right' then theirs! So, Pah-leeease let it go!
And yes the world would be at least slightly better if people accepted each others personal beliefs for what they are, because there wouldnt be an attack about vaccinating on a thread about neutering a cat. That alone would make this little tiny piece of the world (even if it is just the internet) a slightly better place.
Miss Sparkly
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Wow! Did you know that a cat can go into heat every three weeks and that the gestation period of a cat is on average 63 days. Also, kittens can go into heat as early as four months. Lets say cat 1 has five kittens in Jan., Apr., Aug., and Dec. That's 21 cats including cat 1, but wait, in May three of her female kittens could have more kittens, lets say five each (that's another 15). Then a few months down the road her kittens, kittens can have kittens, not to mention she's having another batch of kittens. Wow, half a year into unspayed life and you've got a lot kittens to deal with! To think that you could have a large amount of land and just let the animals be animals is nieve and irresponsible. All you'll end up with is wild, feral animals who will be coyote food.
IloveAsschers13
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Without bringing up the other thread, I think the point that was trying to be made was that in a debate like this, there are facts that are brought to the table- that animals are healthier by getting spayed or neutered, not just having a tubal ligation. So there are people in this thread are trying to make the OP and people who choose not to get their pet spayed or neutered that it is the RIGHT choice to make. I think all of us in this community understand that people are going to make their own choices whether we agree with them or not, but being educated on those choices is a completely different matter. I don''t understand how this is a personal belief about getting a cat''s tubes tied? Isn''t it the cat that we are worried about here, not the owner??
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e the kitty should be spayed. I have stray cats everywhere here, and infact that pee under my house and make my house smell like a litter box at least 2x a month. I then have to carpet fresh EVERYTHING to get the lingering smell out. I have to catch them in traps and ship them to the humane society ALL THE TIME. Its exausting, and when the cats spray under my house...makes me want to scream because I HATE the smell of cat pee. So I am 100% for the fixing of animals.
Most the people on this thread have offered great information to the OP, but some have been a bit harsh in words and I dont think the OP diserves to be attacked over a cat thread. If she believes her cat should have sex, then whatever. As long as babies arnt resulting in it, and they arnt peeing under my house.
Long speech short, people are more likely to listen to advice and take advice to heart when they are are spoken to in a respectful, pleasent and informative matter, not when they are said with harsh words in a attacking tone.
iheartscience
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I''m not ruffled-just pointing out a parallel. You seem to be of the school of thought that personal beliefs, even ignorant and wrong ones, should trump the well being of a helpless animal or child. I disagree-I believe that decisions should be made based on facts and logic, not ignorant and wrong personal beliefs.
I think the world would be a MUCH better place if people relied on logic and facts instead of paranoia, conspiracy theories and/or covering their ears and humming when they hear something that contradicts their baseless personal beliefs.
purrfectpear
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FrekeChild
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LAJennifer
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Yes, and there are lots of stray dogs in Russia now who are a public danger because they DO attack people But haven''t I also mentioned that many people these days choose tubal ligation for their cats or dogs in Moscow? When I chose it for mine I did not even know this but recently friends told me that it is a viable option in Russia.
I, however, think that people totally misunderstood my initial question. It was not about not spaying cats or dogs. It was about whether anyone considered tubal ligation a VIABLE ALTERNATIVE. I now doubt that everyone understood what tubal ligation means, since people had to google it. It is the same as "having fallopian tubes tied". I agree, not taking out ovaries and uterus may increase the risk of UTERINE, OVARIAN or BREAST cancers but at the same time it does increase the risk of CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASES or DIABETES. That is why women are offered HRT at least for the first four years after the menopause.
Having a cat in heat is a bad thing.
Here is another option, however: you get a female kitten and tie up her fallopian tubes (so she can have sex and not get pregnant) and a male cat - and do vasectomy on him (I hope people know what vasectomy means). And then you have a pair of UNCASTRATED animals (because SPAYING and NEUTERING is called CASTRATION in humans) who can have normal sexual life but do not procreate. They have a higher risk of certain types of cancer (like people who have not been castrated do) but their risk of obesity, high blood pressure, cardiac events, strokes or diabetes is lower. What would people think?
Everyone seems to look at the problem from the standpoint of shelters (which is a huge problem). But look at it from the standpoint of the ALTERNATIVES that you may have as pet''s owners.
When someone performs hysterectomy on a woman, he usually gives her options: total abdominal hysterectomy or just hysterectomy. Then benefits/side effects are discussed. That is what I tried to do - instead it all somehow changed into a discussion of shelters. Someone even mentioned obtaining two dogs because of someone''s "irresponsibility". Finding homes for 12 kittens could barely be called irresponsible. In hindsight, I probably should have not allowed her to have three litters (although we specifically mated her with the first cat because we wanted kittens). But tubal ligation rendered her infertile yet her hormonal level was "healthy". With this kitten, I am just weighing options.
So - taking another male cat and performing vasectomy? British blues are very "home-oriented". They will mate when she is in heat - and no kittens. Is this an option? Or is there something wrong with it as well?
Upgradable
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A cat is not a Human.
Humans are the only "animal" that have non-reproductive sexual drives.
Animals don't have SEX for pleasure or fulfillment.
They ONLY mate to reproduce.
Tying tubes, whether fallopian or vas deferens, will not change the animal's urge to MATE.
Said animal will still go into heat (if female) with all the associated wailing, bleeding, and other unpleasant behaviors. Males will still mark, be aggressive, and "tom" around.
Humans are the only "animal" that have non-reproductive sexual drives.
Animals don't have SEX for pleasure or fulfillment.
They ONLY mate to reproduce.
Tying tubes, whether fallopian or vas deferens, will not change the animal's urge to MATE.
Said animal will still go into heat (if female) with all the associated wailing, bleeding, and other unpleasant behaviors. Males will still mark, be aggressive, and "tom" around.
Hudson_Hawk
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Miss Sparkly
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elrohwen
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Crasru, we've really tried to answer your questions and I think the majority of us are getting extremely frustrated. No matter how many times we address your actual intended question, you ignore us.
Yes, we know what the medical terms mean. Yes, we understand what you are saying. No, we don't think it's a good idea. And yes, I think you're being selfish by allowing your cat to have frustrating urges she can't control, all because you, personally, would not want a hysterectomy. She's a cat, not a human. Her needs and feelings are different. Pretending she's another person won't get you very far. We all love our pets, yet we choose to spay and neuter because it is the best thing for them.
No one on this thread has agreed with you - explaining yourself better won't change that. We still disagree.
Ditto Upgradeable.
Yes, we know what the medical terms mean. Yes, we understand what you are saying. No, we don't think it's a good idea. And yes, I think you're being selfish by allowing your cat to have frustrating urges she can't control, all because you, personally, would not want a hysterectomy. She's a cat, not a human. Her needs and feelings are different. Pretending she's another person won't get you very far. We all love our pets, yet we choose to spay and neuter because it is the best thing for them.
No one on this thread has agreed with you - explaining yourself better won't change that. We still disagree.
Ditto Upgradeable.
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1) Technically speaking and from evolutionary standpoint, human sexual urges are also "reproductive" in nature - I could go on a long way about it, but do not think it is important. People learned to control the fertility rate, this is true, but we are on the same "branch" as all mammals - just a bigger brain.
2) I may be limited my option by a totally different reason - if the vet said that they are not taught to do tubal ligation in medical schools, then they do not do it, this is all.
3) (This is not your post - someone else''s) - the vet''s facial expression might change when I say I want my cat to have normal hormonal level (not to have sex). How do vets'' faces look when someone tells them he wants to declaw their animal? Just because it shreds their new rug?
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Hormonal urges is what causes male cats to mark their territory and wander in search of a mate. Frankly, I've had enough spraying problems with castrated male cats that I wouldn't even consider anything less.
Crasru, have you had neutered cats? Have you see the types of problems you're anticipating? I've had at least two cats at a time the past thirty years or more. They were all neutered, and not one suffered from a lack of personality. I know you seem to be intent on doing this your way, but I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve.. but you are potentially setting yourself up for a lot of problems down the line.
What will you do if your less invasive options don't work? If your male cat sprays all over the house (especially on exterior-facing walls and doors, since there will probably be males hanging around outside once your female goes into heat)? If your female keeps you up all night or leaves stains all over when she's in heat? If your male harasses and tries to hump your cat constantly, even when she's not in heat?
I understand that you think you're doing the right thing for your cats, but... you are going to be living with these cats. What will you do if these cats cease to be reasonable pets because of the choices you're making?
Crasru, have you had neutered cats? Have you see the types of problems you're anticipating? I've had at least two cats at a time the past thirty years or more. They were all neutered, and not one suffered from a lack of personality. I know you seem to be intent on doing this your way, but I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve.. but you are potentially setting yourself up for a lot of problems down the line.
What will you do if your less invasive options don't work? If your male cat sprays all over the house (especially on exterior-facing walls and doors, since there will probably be males hanging around outside once your female goes into heat)? If your female keeps you up all night or leaves stains all over when she's in heat? If your male harasses and tries to hump your cat constantly, even when she's not in heat?
I understand that you think you're doing the right thing for your cats, but... you are going to be living with these cats. What will you do if these cats cease to be reasonable pets because of the choices you're making?
elrohwen
Ideal_Rock
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Crasru, if you would search this forum for declawing information, I think you would find that the people on this forum are extremely anti-declawing. I won''t argue that it is done in this country, but for the point of this thread it''s a moot point - nobody here would recommend it, so it''s not a valid argument.
FrekeChild
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The only way I *might* consider your "finding homes for 12 kittens" RESPONSIBLE was if you had them each spayed/neutered before giving them away.
Due to the subject of the current thread, I highly doubt that was the case.
So here is a question: Why don't you ask those vets who refuse to do the tubal ligation WHY they won't?
ETA: Please don't speak to us like we're ignorant. I am hoping you are aware that as a group, PSers are incredibly smart, educated people who really don't like being talked down to, like you did in your above post. Your words left a very bad taste in my mouth.
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