Tubal ligation for a cat?

[cara]

I understand your impulse to not want to change the personality of your cat - but let''s think of horses. Geldings have fundamentally different lives than stallions, but they are not necessarily unhappy ones. And given how much space horses need, and how difficult it is to board multiple stallions at the same property in proximity to mares, and how temperamental stallions are, it just makes sense that most male horses need to be gelded. Just how it is.

I''m not sure that the personality changes associated with spaying are as bad as for castrating/gelding the boys. But even so, at some point I think that it is part of the trade-off made in domesticating animals. Since we humans like cats, for example, we don''t like to see them starving or ragged in the wild or gassed in shelters. We keep them in our homes and treat them like family, and even when not our personal pet we tend not to treat them like animals for food or whatnot. Thus, having mostly domesticated them, we have an obligation to control their population even if that means they are not in their ''natural'' state. Its not fun to subject them to ''natural'' predation or starvation, and I don''t think that a fixed animal is an unhappy one. Just different. Anyway, that''s my two cents and change. Spay your cat!

 

[movie zombie]

waterlily, i knew all this before....and its still upsetting. but going through life and not being upset, well, that''s going through life w/o being aware. please keep up your good work and keep informing everyone...including posting here....what the conditions really are.

mz

ps another eye opener for many is a trip to the crematorium where the bodies of the unwanted go..........when the human society does its drop off its evident these cats and dogs did not go peacefully.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 2/11/2010 7:43:46 PM
Author: lulu
http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/pet_overpopulation/facts/why_spay_neuter.html


I can''t say anything else. I''m flabbergasted.

I wanted to give a big

for the mention of rabbits at the bottom of this article. Rabbits are the third most euthanized animal, after dogs and cats, and I would argue that far more people spay/neuter their dogs and cats than their rabbits. So many people don''t know you can even spay or neuter a rabbit, so cheers to the Humane Society for mentioning it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

In all my years, I have never heard of refraining from having a cat or dog spayed because it might change their personality! By all means, spay the poor cat!!! We had a stray feral female who came around to eat from our cats'' bowls and we had a time with male cats from the neighborhood tormenting her. We finally were able to catch her and take her to the vet for shots and spaying. Now the stray males leave her alone!

 

[y2kitty]

Ok, I feel a little weird, I had a neighborhood stray given an abortion. And I didn''t think twice about it. AND she seemed really happy afterwards.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 2/11/2010 10:51:47 PM
Author: y2kitty
Ok, I feel a little weird, I had a neighborhood stray given an abortion. And I didn''t think twice about it. AND she seemed really happy afterwards.

Not weird at all. They probably did a "spay/abort". Being pregnant and feral is no life, she was likely malnourished and very stressed. Good for you for stepping up for her! I think a lot of people don''t realize how HUGE of an impact they can make by catching and spaying a stray/feral cat.

It is more helpful for the animal to spay / neuter a stray than to feed it - and most communities have low cost clinics you can use.

It also takes very little time / effort to care for a stray after it is fixed if you have grown attached. They don''t eat a lot, and a simple shelter outside (a milk crate sized box with a small opening and some cedar shavings) where they can escape the elements is all it takes.

Anyone that has a garage or barn - you''ll have an expert mouser if you let a spayed stray live there!

 

[Miss Sparkly]

In college speech class the "tough guy" of our group came in front of us to tell us why it is so important to fix our pets. We could tell that is was a difficult speech for him and this became very apparent at the end. He cupped his hands, began shaking, looked down and them and started to cry. He told us that a person doesn''t know pain until they''ve held a baby kitten in their hands, watched it die because there was no room for it, and then saw it put into a black garbage bag and thrown away. Reality check - it is very likely that out of three batches of kittens at least one met a similar fate. PLEASE spay or netuer your pets!

 

[Little Monster]

This whole thing is making me mad, so I''ll keep it short.

SPAY your cat. STOP breeding your cat. COUNTLESS numbers of animals are killed every year (even desirable puppies & kittens) because there are so many unintentional births.

WHY bring more into the world so others can be killed?

Do the responsible thing...

 

[swimmer]

Just wanted to add some weird historical info, (what else am I good for?) Concerning the OP''s expression of comparing neutering cats with human members of her family, actually, males used to be "snipped" for a variety of reasons throughout history. The Italian Castrati, the last of which died in 1861, were noted for their long lives and economic success in the Opera, even if that went hand in hand with additional subcutaneous fat. The Chinese eunuchs were the only men permitted in the Forbidden City other than the Emperor and had tremendous political power at various times (like the end of the Quing dynasty) despite most of them having been taken from abject poverty. The last Chinese eunuch died in 1996 at 93 years of age. Notably Zheng He, the Muslim eunuch who traveled the earth in the early 1400s, only to report back to his Ming dynasty emperor that the rest of the world had nothing to offer China, demonstrates the absolute trust placed in these men whose only allegiance was to their ruler.

In humans, removal of the testes prolongs life (healthier heart without testosterone), leads to longer limb length, and while the emotional implications ensure that it should never be done on people, well, for pets? A longer, more comfortable life seems pretty ideal!

I liked to think of my castrated kitty as being a kindred soul to the crafty Chinese eunuchs of the last dynasties. He was fat, happy, powerful, and master of all that he surveyed for 18 years.

 

[y2kitty]

The one thing that always shocks me is this: I know many people who have gotten cats that are unaltered. I ask them when they plan to do the surgery. They will say some reason, I don''t have a car, I don''t have the money. I will offer to drive them and pay for the surgery. Of the 5 people I have offered a ride or to cover the cost of the surgery only one has taken me up on it. A friend of a roommate (who I had offered to cover the surgery for since he is a student) had a cat that got pregnant. I explained some statistics to him about cats born in Maricopa County (where we live) that for every 5 cats born here only 1 makes it to the age of 2. I explained how I had gotten a stray an abortion, and the cat was fine afterwards. He told me "he didn''t believe in abortions and that it extended to cats". Then 5 kittens were born and he couldn''t find homes for all of them.....

 

[AmberGretchen]

Everyone else has made some excellent points about why it is critical that you spay your cat, and I hope you take them to heart and get your kitty spayed to avoid adding to the horrendous pet over-population problem in the world.

Also, please know that we aren''t just saying this to serve our own interests. Spaying/neutering pet animals is not at all the same thing as castrating humans, FYI, and there is no substantial evidence suggesting anything but very minor and when they exist, positive changes in pets'' personalities as a result of spaying neutering. But don''t take my word for it, read this statement from the UC Davis veterinary school, one of the most respected and prestigious veterinary schools in the country, in which they say the same thing. The statement reads, in part:

"These routine medical procedures not only help control pet overpopulation, but may also prevent medical and behavioral problems from developing. This allows your cat to lead a longer, healthier and happier life...spaying or neutering your cat is unlikely to change their basic personality."

I also noticed that you lump spaying and neutering in with declawing ("pulling out their claws"). Please note that this is a completely different procedure, in my opinion (and that of many veterinary experts) - while spaying and neutering generally has no effect on a cat''s quality of life, de-clawing can have a significant negative effect because it changes the way their whole skeleton works. Not having sexual organs, a cat does not "miss" having sexual impulses, because they don''t know the difference (their cognition is fundamentally different than humans), and sexual behavior is not essential to their comfort or daily activities. Being without claws, however, does have a significant impact on the quality of life because the claws are an essential part of the cat''s daily life, being used for stretching, balance, self-defense, and a whole host of other activities the cat is called upon to perform regularly.

 

[doodle]

The only drawback to spaying a cat that I have ever personally observed (and I've had dozens of cats in my life, all of which we got fixed) is that the cat is gassy for a few days. I can deal with the little fartbag stinking me out of my house as long as I know she is safe, happy, and not contributing to a problem I find abhorrent because I was negligent. As far as whether I would tear out the nails of a family member or castrate said family member, well, I wouldn't leave that family member outside to get eaten by coyotes or raccoons either. Call me crazy. Please get her spayed.

ETA As far as allowing your animal to mate with cats she just finds (or who you just stumble upon), please do some research on FIV. It's deadly, contagious, and passes to all kittens born from an infected mother. It's the cat equivalent to AIDS, and unless you specifically request the vaccine for it, she hasn't gotten it because they don't include it on regular vaccination panels as it causes the animal to test positive. If your cat HAS been vaccinated for it and you're allowing your cat to go outside, also be advised that any cat picked up that tests positive for FIV (and your vaccinated cat would be) is automatically put to sleep.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/11/2010 1:16:53 PM
Author: MC

Date: 2/11/2010 1:13:29 PM
Author: MonkeyPie


Watching them go through heat without a male was heart-breaking, they were so distraught.

I swear, when my cat went into heat, she kept staring at my husband. I know that''s beyond weird to even mention. . .lol

I know what you mean. After the first day my first cat was in heat, my husband looked at me and said, "Find her a cat". It did look strange.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/11/2010 1:40:39 PM
Author: Loves Vintage
I would be more concerned about letting my beloved cat go outside where '[m]any animals disappear [because] there are many raccoons and coyotes in the woods. Or, letting my beloved cat mate with another cat when there are thousands and thousands of unwanted pets in shelters.

Anyway, very curious -- what does this mean: 'And then trying to find a 'normal' cat (I guess I have to go to Craigslist)?'

First - I hope people understand what tubal ligation is and that it effectively prevents pregnancy.

My cat doesn't get outside.

And I hope people understood that even with the first one, we performed tubal ligation (which leaves the inner organs but renders her infretile because the egg does not get into the uterus; that is what women mean when they say, "I had my tubes tied"). It is bad, though, that she was walking outside (but we were rather new to WA - cats did not routinely disappear in Massachusetts).

And we had experience with finding homes for kittens. We never left a single one in a shelter, No one ended up in a garbage bag!

As for this cat, no one plans to let her breed. So my only question was, why is tubal ligation worse than spaying? This is my second cat, and I want to explore which options are best for her.

Cancers, as you have said. Makes sense.
Although removing ovaries and uterus is a serious surgery. It is equivalent to total abdominal hysterectomy in women.

Suffering from being in heat (that is why I mentioned looking for a "normal" cat - so that she would not feel uncomfortable).

She is not going to breed.

Is their hunting instinct preserved if they are spayed? We do not let this one out, but what if she sneaks out? Our previous one was a fighter, can and would this one put up a fight if she is spayed?

I am trying to explore better options for her (equivalent of total abdominal hysterectomy versus tying tubes). Honestly, the main reason I even raised this question is because she is so passive even now, and not too bright, I am afraid that she'll become totally shallow if she is spayed.

I am going to get to the link you have recommended and read more. This is my second cat, I never had cats in childhood but I know that the methods they used to get rid of kittens in my native country were pretty unhuman. So when I got my first cat I knew I'd never bring a single kitten to a shelter. I can not imagine leaving an animal behind, either. I wonder if there is any available information to compare results of two procedures.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/11/2010 5:39:54 PM
Author: waterlilly
The shelter my rescue works with will gas puppies and kittens along with their mothers right after birth if they are unfortunate enough to give birth in the shelter before a rescue group steps up to pull them - they can't afford to spay/abort them and they can't afford to keep them long enough to be weened. They do it with tears in their eyes and no other choice.

It is barbaric, and we as a society condone it anytime we purposely breed our pets for fun or vote to reduce funding for these shelters in our community.

We try desperately to pull as many pregnant mothers as we can - at the expense of the poor sweet adult dog that was dumped because some loser was 'moving and couldn't take him' with them. You can't take that sweet dog because you've got an impending litter of 7 to deal with because some fool didn't spay their dog then tossed it.

It makes you pretty angry at society to deal with the never ending flood of perfect dogs and cats that get tossed away - so to hear someone purposely letting their cat have multiple litters and then question the need for a proper spay? Intolerable.

I hope you understood me correctly - first, we never SOLD a single kitten.
Second, these people did not plan to go to shelters and adopt cats or dogs. I doubt they planned to have cats at all - but they were our friends, acquaintances, coworkers. If I advised them to go and adopt, they'd say, "what for?" But since we had kittens, they each decided to take one (or even two). This is exactly the way we got our first kitten - my friend's mother had a cat who brought her kittens. We were not even thinking of a cat, but since she offered, we decided to take the cat.
As to walking around the house...In Massachusetts it was more than safe, and no cat had ever disappeared since the time we lived there.
Washington, obviously, is another thing and there are many wild animals around. BTW, till I read this thread, I was totally unaware of what was going on in shelters. We went into a couple of shelters in search for our cat when she disappeared but no one mentioned gassing animals.

 

[y2kitty]

Ok, my oldest cat is 19 or so now, but when we were younger (yes, this is my childhood cat) she was spayed and would still hunt quite frequently. Yes, we let her outside, we lived in a rural area she would go out all day and at dusk I would go out on the porch & call her name and she would come running through the woods and up the porch, like Lassie. And yes, even though she was spayed, she would hunt. She always would bring me a gift on Mother's Day and Valentine's Day (not making this up) usually a mole. Which I would then tell her did not count because moles are blind. Over the years she would bring baby bunnies in the summer and mice a few times. One time I caught her stalking a deer like she thought she could kill it. I had a 2nd cat too but he was not smart enough to go outside. I stopped letting her outside in 2004, they had put in bald eagles near where we live and I kept seeing one in our back yard so I decided she could not go out anymore. Then I moved to Arizona and there is no way I would let her out here.

But if your concern is spaying decreasing the spay drive, I would say that won't happen. Also, everyone I know who has there cat altered has positive things to say about their behavior post spay or neuter.

 

[Miss Sparkly]

Very few people keep their animals for a lifetime. Even the ones you trust are not going to tell you if they had to take the furball to the pound because they could no longer, or did not want to, keep it anymore.

Spaying or Neutering Your Cat

Having your cat spayed or neutered is one of the greatest gifts you can provide your pet and family. These routine medical procedures not only help control pet overpopulation, but may also prevent medical and behavioral problems from developing. This allows your cat to lead a longer, healthier and happier life.

What is Spaying and Neutering?

A "spay", or ovariohysterectomy, is the surgical removal of a female cat''s ovaries and uterus, while "neutering", or castration, is the removal of a male cat''s testicles. While both operations are conducted routinely with few complications, only licensed veterinarians are allowed to perform them. Prior to surgery, your veterinarian may carry out a complete physical examination of your cat or draw a sample of their blood for analysis. Both spaying and neutering are conducted while your cat is under general anesthesia to minimize pain and discomfort. Following surgery, your veterinarian will instruct you on how to care for your cat while they are recovering. Within a few days, most cats are "back to normal"; the surgery site usually heals within two weeks and any skin stitches are removed at a recheck appointment with your vet.

Why Spay or Neuter?

Spaying or neutering your cat prevents unwanted births and reduces the influence of sex hormones on your pet''s behavior. In seven years, an unspayed female and unneutered male cat can produce up to 781,250 kittens. Homes cannot be found for most of these animals and many either end up in shelters or on the street. Only a lucky few are adopted; the rest are either euthanized or die from trauma, exposure, starvation or disease. By spaying or neutering your cat, you do your part to prevent this tragedy.

Behavior problems can also be prevented or minimized by spaying or neutering your cat. Sexual behavior in both male and female cats is reduced following surgery. In 90% of male cats, neutering eliminated roaming, urine spraying, and fights with neighborhood cats, regardless of their age when neutered. Female cats no longer show "heat" behavior (soliciting mounting from males). Overall, being sexually intact increases the risk of relinquishment to a shelter. There are, however, large individual differences and not all cats undergo a behavior change following spaying or neutering.

Will My Cat''s Personality Change?

Other than the previously mentioned behavior changes, spaying or neutering your cat is unlikely to change their basic personality. Some cats appear "lazy" since they are less likely to roam and may gain weight. In one study, 25% of cat owners felt their cats became more "docile" following castration. Hunting skills, playfulness, general activity levels, excitement, and vocalization also do not typically change following surgery.

When Should I Spay/Neuter My Cat?

Although some people suggest waiting until a cat is six months old, early age spaying and neutering are becoming popular. Physically, male cats neutered prior to puberty do not develop the large head and thick skin of intact males. Both neutered males and spayed females have a tendency to gain weight due to a decrease in roaming and other sexual behavior. However, weight gain can be prevented through dietary management.

Studies have shown that cats spayed or neutered at less than six months of age do not have an increased risk of physical or behavioral problems as compared to those that undergo surgery later. Early-age spaying and neutering may prevent problem behaviors before they occur. Spaying and neutering should also be considered for any pet with a behavior problem, regardless of age. For certain behaviors, surgery may reduce or eliminate the problem, even in older cats. Consult with your veterinarian or veterinary behaviorist for further information.

University of California School of Veterinary Medicine Behavior

 

[elrohwen]

Just because you found the babies homes doesn''t mean those people will keep the cats. Especially since the people who took them didn''t want a cat at first - they might decide the impulse decision to get a cat wasn''t a good one and get rid of the cat. Or maybe they won''t spay/neuter the kitten they took and that cat will then produce a dozen more cats. And maybe the owners won''t really care about finding good homes for those dozen babies. See the problem with your thinking? Your one cat may only have a dozen babies, and maybe you found ok homes for those babies, but ultimately, if everyone thought like you and let their cat have a dozen babies, there would be even more homeless animals (and clearly there are more than enough homeless animals already).

And why would you think spaying would decrease your cat''s prey drive? Especially since you are no longer letting the cat out. You don''t really seem to have any basis for thinking this - it''s just a worry. That worry should not stop you from doing what it right and responsible. You''re not changing your cat''s natural hunting and defense instincts by spaying, you''re just getting rid of her ability and drive to reproduce. Not sure why you would think those are linked.

You also asked why having your cat''s tubes tied is not as good as spaying - clearly your cat still has the urge to mate and this makes her very uncomfortable. Why would you want her to still have a sexual drive that is making her miserable? Why wouldn''t you just get her spayed so she can be happy and not miserable? There is also still a risk of cancer if she has her sexual organs.

I think you are avoiding spaying for your own personal, selfish reasons - not for the good of your cat. Put your own wants aside and do what is right for your animal - get her spayed.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/14/2010 11:53:15 AM
Author: elrohwen
Just because you found the babies homes doesn't mean those people will keep the cats. Especially since the people who took them didn't want a cat at first - they might decide the impulse decision to get a cat wasn't a good one and get rid of the cat. Or maybe they won't spay/neuter the kitten they took and that cat will then produce a dozen more cats. And maybe the owners won't really care about finding good homes for those dozen babies. See the problem with your thinking? Your one cat may only have a dozen babies, and maybe you found ok homes for those babies, but ultimately, if everyone thought like you and let their cat have a dozen babies, there would be even more homeless animals (and clearly there are more than enough homeless animals already).

And why would you think spaying would decrease your cat's prey drive? Especially since you are no longer letting the cat out. You don't really seem to have any basis for thinking this - it's just a worry. That worry should not stop you from doing what it right and responsible. You're not changing your cat's natural hunting and defense instincts by spaying, you're just getting rid of her ability and drive to reproduce. Not sure why you would think those are linked.

You also asked why having your cat's tubes tied is not as good as spaying - clearly your cat still has the urge to mate and this makes her very uncomfortable. Why would you want her to still have a sexual drive that is making her miserable? Why wouldn't you just get her spayed so she can be happy and not miserable? There is also still a risk of cancer if she has her sexual organs.

I think you are avoiding spaying for your own personal, selfish reasons - not for the good of your cat. Put your own wants aside and do what is right for your animal - get her spayed.

Definitely not for selfish reasons - I don't even see what is selfish there since ligation involves more time, more money and, later, efforts to find a male cat so that she could have sex when she is in heat. Partially, a cultural issue (I hear many people get their cats' tubes tied in Russia) and partially I may project my cat's feelings and emotions on myself - which is strange, but if you have not been raised with any animals around you (my mom did not like animals in the house) and you always wanted one, you really have lots of "motherly instincts" when you get an animal.

I think it is a conflict of cultures - since spaying is so culturally acceptable here, no one thinks twice of having the animal spayed, it is just a normal procedure. But if you come from a country where animals were not spayed - it feels totally different. Granted, I never asked cat owners in Russia if their animals had kittens and what they did with these kittens - it just never occurred to me that they might get rid of them because it would have been unthinkable to me. I saw a couple of kittens in my friends' houses and usually they would later stay in the house, and that was all I knew.

I definitely got "feedbacks" about my kitten's lives. Two of them were adopted by my husband's gay coworker and he took excellent care of them. Another one was adopted by a gay couple at my work and later they asked me for a second one but my cat's tubes had been tied by that time. I remember about a cat who went to Chicago, I think, and was very well loved by his owner. She actually broke an arm because she tripped over him in the darkness and fell. But she considered him a good "mascot" because she soon found a nice boyfriend who later proposed. Her best friend (the one who organized this whole thing), too, asked us if we had another one - she was alone at that time and hoped that our cat could be "lucky" to her.

I do not remember all of our conversations. One cat I saw on a regular basis because she went to our friends' house. Also a couple of people told me that the cats started using something else instead of litter boxes. One of them was observing a kid being put on a potty and then she started using the same potty! The other one, for some reason, started using the toilet. She couldn't flush it, of course, but the owners were surprized. I have to ask my husband what he remembers about other kittens. But no one was given away, no.

In short, I did not approach people on the streets offering them kittens. I was in a huge residency program, with many people around me, rotating through several hospitals. I never hung out ads on the ads boards. We knew the people well.

I do believe these are cultural differences. For example, I hear many people telling me they declaw their animals. I do not pass judgment on them although I could not imagine doing anything like it to mine. I think it is more accepted here (and I don't know why) so people may not think twice before they do it. I think there was a topic here dedicated to this issue - I have to look through it and see what people wrote.

I do not even understand what raised such a negative reaction. I think the fact that we had 12 kittens and found houses for them - maybe people feel that we have deprived other kittens from shelters of being adopted? (As I have mentioned before, we offered the kittens, like I took the kitten although I never thought of doing so to start with. We had a hamster and a fish in the house, and planned to get a guinea pig later).

I suspect this is what raised such a reaction. Or maybe someone suspects that we left kittens in the shelter because many people do so? - I hope you understand that it did not happen.

Since I know how traumatic total abdominal hysterectomy could be, I just asked a simple question - has anyone considered tubal ligation instead of spaying? Some people were nice enough to explain their rationale (I especially liked the posting about horses). Why someone would accuse me of being selfish is beyong my comprehension.

 

[JSM]

I think the important thing to remember is that cats are NOT humans. They do not experience human emotions, and they have a limited memory compared to a human's. Neutering an animal will not override their instinct to hunt and protect themselves, just their instinct to mate.

Talk to your VET. He or she might be able to convince you (though the information given here is pretty accurate).

 

[Arkteia]

One thing, though - I agree that cats should not have kittens. So the idea of letting her have kittens and then tying up her tubes is not a good one. And, of course, since most of male cats are castrated because they tend to urinate it would be difficult to find an intact male cat. So I see the logic behind your thinking. I guess I have to talk to the vet. She got her shots when she was younger.

 

[Hest88]

Date: 2/14/2010 5:43:07 PM
Author:Why someone would accuse me of being selfish is beyong my comprehension.

Back when I first started swing dancing I went out to a dance. A guy, who had obviously been dancing slightly longer than I, asked me to dance and proceed to try to impress me by dipping me and swinging me all about. We got a few dirty looks from some of the other couples but it didn''t really register with me. It wasn''t until I got further educated about the swing dance community that I realized what a huge faux pas we had made. Swing dance etiquette calls for a couple to be *very* careful about having enough space around them before attempting any moves that could end up kicking or crashing into other people. I was rather mortified when I figured it out, and hoped that some of those couples at the dance realized we were ignorant not malicious or being deliberately rude.

My point is that you posted your message from a naive, similarly uninformed place, and not through any fault of your own. But, I do hope you''ll take the opinions to heart of those who have studied the issue far longer. I''m sorry, Crasru, that you were feeling attacked, but spaying and neutering is a huge thing among the animal welfare community. We''ve evolved so far since the days when people could treat animals however they wished and not suffer any consequences, and along with that new enlightenment comes a greater understanding of our general responsibilities toward the creatures we chose to pluck from the natural world and share our lives with. Animals don''t *miss* their sexual organs, they don''t regret not having babies. In fact, the opposite is true. An animal in heat who can''t mate doesn''t have the advantage of reason to able to understand why she is suffering; why she *wants* something badly but can''t have it. A tubal isn''t done because though you''ve eliminated the possibility of pregnancy you haven''t eliminated the desire. It''s cruel to do that to a creature who can''t understand what''s happening to it.

Also, spayed cats live lives that are as long and happy as unspayed cats, so you don''t have to worry about depriving it of anything. You''re actually ensuring it is *more* content.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/14/2010 5:56:37 PM
Author: jsm
I think the important thing to remember is that cats are NOT humans. They do not experience human emotions, and they have a limited memory compared to a human's. Neutering an animal will not override their instinct to hunt and protect themselves, just their instinct to mate.

Talk to your VET. He or she might be able to convince you (though the information given here is pretty accurate).

And this is another question. It almost comes to, "why do we keep pets". About human emotions - I don't know. None of us shall ever know.
I shall talk to HER vet.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/14/2010 6:04:22 PM
Author: Hest88

Date: 2/14/2010 5:43:07 PM
Author:Why someone would accuse me of being selfish is beyong my comprehension.

Back when I first started swing dancing I went out to a dance. A guy, who had obviously been dancing slightly longer than I, asked me to dance and proceed to try to impress me by dipping me and swinging me all about. We got a few dirty looks from some of the other couples but it didn''t really register with me. It wasn''t until I got further educated about the swing dance community that I realized what a huge faux pas we had made. Swing dance etiquette calls for a couple to be *very* careful about having enough space around them before attempting any moves that could end up kicking or crashing into other people. I was rather mortified when I figured it out, and hoped that some of those couples at the dance realized we were ignorant not malicious or being deliberately rude.

My point is that you posted your message from a naive, similarly uninformed place, and not through any fault of your own. But, I do hope you''ll take the opinions to heart of those who have studied the issue far longer. I''m sorry, Crasru, that you were feeling attacked, but spaying and neutering is a huge thing among the animal welfare community. We''ve evolved so far since the days when people could treat animals however they wished and not suffer any consequences, and along with that new enlightenment comes a greater understanding of our general responsibilities toward the creatures we chose to pluck from the natural world and share our lives with. Animals don''t *miss* their sexual organs, they don''t regret not having babies. In fact, the opposite is true. An animal in heat who can''t mate doesn''t have the advantage of reason to able to understand why she is suffering; why she *wants* something badly but can''t have it. A tubal isn''t done because though you''ve eliminated the possibility of pregnancy you haven''t eliminated the desire. It''s cruel to do that to a creature who can''t understand what''s happening to it.

Also, spayed cats live lives that are as long and happy as unspayed cats, so you don''t have to worry about depriving it of anything. You''re actually ensuring it is *more* content.

You know what I think happened? People see so many animals being deserted or left behind, they simply did not believe me when I said that we were able to find homes for 12 kittens! Me and my husband put a lot of time and effort into it, in my program for a while they called me "kittens'' mom". But we placed all of them in very nice homes! People might feel bitter when they see how few people adopt kittens. I work with kids and often have similar feelings about children in orphanages but I do not want to start another thread.

 

[RockHugger]

I am sorry people have been rude to you and and attacking. I keep asking myself why simple questions always arise so much anger on thos board.
I know you are a good person crasru and I know you want to do what is best for your kitty. Personally, I would just do the hysterectomy and call it a day, but it is YOUR cat and your decision to do what is best for her. I would talk to a vet, and weigh the pros and cons to each procedure. If tubes tied is the way you want to go for your own personal reasons, by all means go for it! It doesnt really matter how it is done, as long as kitty is healthy and baby free iin the end!

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/14/2010 6:30:30 PM
Author: RockHugger
I am sorry people have been rude to you and and attacking. I keep asking myself why simple questions always arise so much anger on thos board.
I know you are a good person crasru and I know you want to do what is best for your kitty. Personally, I would just do the hysterectomy and call it a day, but it is YOUR cat and your decision to do what is best for her. I would talk to a vet, and weigh the pros and cons to each procedure. If tubes tied is the way you want to go for your own personal reasons, by all means go for it! It doesnt really matter how it is done, as long as kitty is healthy and baby free iin the end!

Thank you RockHugger. I was missing your postings, wanted to ask you what was going on. I have noticed that simple questions raise a lot of emotions but I think it is because people feel passionate about certain issues. That people work in shelters is great and of course they see lots of things that none of us does and that is why they take it so close to heart. I probably would respond the same way if someone mentioned that in his view, teachers'' salaries were good enough for them. This is my personal cause, although I have no teachers in my family. Or insurances not paying for programs that can help autistic kids at early age. We all are passionate about different things, and people love animals, and love their cats, and I love mine, too. If anyone started a topic on orphanages or adoptions I''d probably be the most active participant. As I have said, it is good that we are human beings and have something to discuss except for stones.

And BTW if people get passionate about stones they are probably passionate about other things as well.

Better tell me what you have read recently and what sources I could use for my education.

 

[RockHugger]

Date: 2/14/2010 6:47:16 PM
Author: crasru

Date: 2/14/2010 6:30:30 PM
Author: RockHugger
I am sorry people have been rude to you and and attacking. I keep asking myself why simple questions always arise so much anger on thos board.
I know you are a good person crasru and I know you want to do what is best for your kitty. Personally, I would just do the hysterectomy and call it a day, but it is YOUR cat and your decision to do what is best for her. I would talk to a vet, and weigh the pros and cons to each procedure. If tubes tied is the way you want to go for your own personal reasons, by all means go for it! It doesnt really matter how it is done, as long as kitty is healthy and baby free iin the end!

Thank you RockHugger. I was missing your postings, wanted to ask you what was going on. I have noticed that simple questions raise a lot of emotions but I think it is because people feel passionate about certain issues. That people work in shelters is great and of course they see lots of things that none of us does and that is why they take it so close to heart. I probably would respond the same way if someone mentioned that in his view, teachers'' salaries were good enough for them. This is my personal cause, although I have no teachers in my family. Or insurances not paying for programs that can help autistic kids at early age. We all are passionate about different things, and people love animals, and love their cats, and I love mine, too. If anyone started a topic on orphanages or adoptions I''d probably be the most active participant. As I have said, it is good that we are human beings and have something to discuss except for stones.

And BTW if people get passionate about stones they are probably passionate about other things as well.

Better tell me what you have read recently and what sources I could use for my education.

You have such an amazing way of looking at things and people. I really look up to you for that.
I dont have any information about kitty spaying for you because I just hand em to the vet and pay the bill LOL. I hope someone can give you some info on it!

 

[cara]

OP, if you are planning to sterilize your cat and just want to know if its worth the hassle of doing the tubal rather than a standard spay. Talk to your vet. People here seem to list cancer and continued urge to mate/going into heat as downsides to just the tubal. You are concerned about personality changes and other fuzzy things like cultural preferences in regards to spaying. So. Talk to your vet. Ask what the downsides are to a traditional spay, if s/he would recommend a tubal or if s/he thinks that the cat continuing to go into heat is a big issue, etc. They are the experts, and if you decide its worth the money to you then you can have the tubal done and see if the results are satisfactory. That would at least be responsible on the controlling-reproduction front.

As for whether or not you personally managed to find good homes for all your kittens, I think some of the posters here have worked with too many shelter kittens to feel good about you breeding your cat randomly no matter if all the offspring happened to end up in good homes for the rest of their lives. If you look at it from a market perspective, all of those cat-homes could have been homes to other cats in shelters if your cat hadn't reproduced. If instead of going on a mission to place your cat's kittens, you had gone on a mission to place a few litters of shelter kittens, that would have kept a few kitties from being killed in shelters. Most people who work in shelters tend to think the world does not need more kittens, especially from people not doing professional-level breeding programs.

 

[elrohwen]

I would like to explain where I was coming from in my post. You read what others have posted, and I believe we have answered your questions. We have explained that your cat will be happier and healthier if you spay her, not get a tubal. At this point, it appears that your only reasons for not wanting to spay are cultural and a notion that your cat may feel different and not be herself. Once again, we've all given you facts about why your cat's personality will not change, why she will remain a good hunter, and how she will be happier, etc. At this point, to me, it appears that you are only against spaying because of how *you* feel. It seems you are projecting your own feelings onto your cat and assuming because the spay makes you nervous, that it will make her unhappy, which is the opposite of the truth. I believe it is shelfish to not spay or neuter your cat because you feel that you, as a human, would not like a hysterectomy. Your human feelings and sensibilities are far from what your cat is feeling - she is only feeling frustration that she wants to mate, but cannot. That is why I said it was a selfish decision. I don't doubt for a minute that you love your cat very much and want what is best for her, but I think you're letting your feelings prevent you from making the best decision for her health and happiness.

As for placing your kittens in homes, I'll try to explain what I was saying in a different way. Say you gave away 12 kittens, and we'll assume all of those cats were in good homes for the rest of their lives. Now, maybe 6 of those cats do not get spayed or neutered, because people feel the same way that you do. Maybe 3 of those cats are female, each has 12 kittens, and now there are 36 more cats in the world that need homes. Say the other 3 are unneutered males who escape from their house just once, and impregnate a few females. Each of those males has maybe 12 kittens or more with these females, so that's 36 kittens.

Now, your one cat has brought about 72 more kittens that all need homes. Pretty soon, there won't be homes. Or someone will not be responsible about finding good homes. Or a home will seem good, but the cat will end up the shelter anyway. It's exponential - the number of cats is continuing to increase and the shelters are getting more full, even though you did find your original 12 kittens very good homes. The fate of these cats and their descendents is out of your hands pretty quickly. You didn't intend for there to be 72 kittens needing good homes, but this can happen very easily.

This example is exactly why you need to spay and neuter and why everyone needs to do it. For everyone that chooses not to and has a few kittens, there are maybe hundreds of kittens a few generations down the line who end up in shelters.

 

[Hest88]

Date: 2/14/2010 6:23:21 PM
Author: crasru
You know what I think happened? People see so many animals being deserted or left behind, they simply did not believe me when I said that we were able to find homes for 12 kittens! Me and my husband put a lot of time and effort into it, in my program for a while they called me ''kittens'' mom''. But we placed all of them in very nice homes! People might feel bitter when they see how few people adopt kittens. I work with kids and often have similar feelings about children in orphanages but I do not want to start another thread.

Actually, that''s not how I feel. Since you brought up the kid thing...what if some girl told you she didn''t see why she should worry about birth control because her family and friends have managed to help her take care of all her 12 kids?