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"True Hearts"... really?

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About2ask

Rough_Rock
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I was looking at this diamond and the Idealscope looks great, however, the Hearts image looks a little off. Is this really considered "True Hearts"? Of course I''m not judging the quality of JA, just a concern with a single diamond.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1287665.asp
 
may well be fine - the pic was taken quite off-centre, you can see it where the Vs intersect. I would just ask for a retake if you're interested in the stone.
 
definitely ask for a retake of the hearts image.
 
Date: 3/8/2010 7:15:45 PM
Author: yssie
may well be fine - the pic was taken quite off-centre, you can see it where the Vs intersect. I would just ask for a retake if you''re interested in the stone.
Ditto.
 
Definitely ask for a retake but it could be the diamond, a slightly bent arrow is visible in the IS and loupe image but a retake could be valuable.
 
Date: 3/8/2010 7:08:07 PM
Author:About2ask
I was looking at this diamond and the Idealscope looks great, however, the Hearts image looks a little off. Is this really considered ''True Hearts''? Of course I''m not judging the quality of JA, just a concern with a single diamond.


http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1287665.asp
‘Hearts and Arrows’ is an attribute that does not have accepted standards, rather like rating a car as a ‘creampuff’. TrueHearts™, on the other hand DOES have a standard. Anything that James Allen wants to include in the line is eligible and nothing else is. To the extent that this is useful or not is purely a function of how much you value JA’s in-house grading process both in terms of taking the image and how they evaluate it. It’s not clear to me how they make this determination and as far as I know they haven’t made public the rules or the methodology so you’re your left with the notion that it IS a TrueHearts™ simply because JA, as the trademark holder, says it is so. Whether or not this is useful information and whether or not the stone is therefore a creampuff is up for you to decide. This same rule applies to any branding attributes on a stone. What makes a stone an ACA is when Whiteflash says it is; What makes a stone a Blue Nile Signature is when Blue Nile says it is, etc.

If you feel that the stone in question doesn’t live up to their standards, talk to them about it. Maybe it’s a defective image, maybe you have a misunderstanding of what their standards are and what you can expect, and maybe it’s an error, but there’s nothing fundamentally ‘true’ about TrueHearts™ (or any other branding) beyond the word of the company standing behind it. It only makes sense to go straight to the source and ask ‘em.

And yes, you ARE judging JA by evaluating their work product (their images and their grading), which is as it should be.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
There''s a hall of mirrors effect here that implicit in this discussion, but I''ll try to avoid it...although it''s impossible to do so.

Neil''s status here is as an expert, he actually does grading for a living, and he comments on Pricescope, where a level of authority is in place as well. I''m guessing, though, he might re-think his position on hearts. This is because the term is not only as close to a term of art as you might get, but it''s been picked up in just such a way on Pricescope, so that I recognized it instantly. Just type in "hearts" into the box at the upper right, and although you''ll get the expected result of 300 hits, on page one, it will be easy enough to find this discussion.

Actually, I have found the point of view historically presented by Infinity the most reasonable. Unfortunately, I think they must have dumbed down their website presentation on cut, but...they traditionally would not go for some meaningless standard, eliminating the split in the Vs (do I care?), but I think they have gone for "precision patterning," but...since it''s no longer on their site, I''m reluctant to confirm. This, it seems to me, from the point of view of performance, is the point, and what a buyer should be concerned about.

But, language is important, too, and I''m motivated here to write, concerning it. The distinction folks have sought to make about "hearts" is intended to have a described meaning...regardless of how ultimately meaningless this meaning may be. It is with respect to this meaning that Pricescope has sought to post Brian''s definition, and past discussion have had another esteemed appraiser suggest that his definition was really as close to as good as there is. But...we are just talking about definition.

I worry that Neil''s dismissing the general and effective meaning used and intended when hearts are mentioned...True Hearts in particular, eradicates miles of text here intended to be useful.

Likewise, we could say that when EGL says a diamond is an E or a G, you have to get with the program that their definition is their definition, and you shouldn''t be disappointed when you don''t map onto GIA''s definition.

Neil tries to wheedle the distinction, but I don''t think it''s appropriate. When JA says true heart, I frankly expect them to intend to mean what has come to be meant as True Hearts...not their proprietary meaning. And likewise, when WF talks about hearts, I too expect their definition to conform to these same generally accepted standards.

Use patterning if that''s what you mean. That may be all you need. But...that''s not my point here.
 
Ira,

You are saying that it would be helpful for shoppers if ‘hearts’ had a clearly defined and widely accepted meaning and I agree, it would, but that doesn’t make it so. As you point out, different dealers have wildly different standards for what they mean when they use this term and GIA, the usual arbiter of this sort of thing, refuses to use the term at all. My point is this. If you want to use an in-house grading to evaluate a stone it’s important to know what they mean by it. A measurement without a scale is useless. When the grade carries a trademark next to it it’s doubly so. There ARE labs with H&A standards including EGL-USA, HRD and Central (Japan). These do NOT agree with one another on the details, as far as I can tell JA isn’t using any of these. This battle has been going on for at least 20 years now and although the players occasionally change I can't imagine we're going to come to any resolution here. I’m not trying to pick on JA, this problem applies to everyone selling H&A’s. They set their own standards and, hopefully, comply with them. They have no choice. I don’t know the JA standards … do you? Without this, how could we possibly know if this stone (or this image) meets them?

The intended task here is clearly to compare supposed H&A stones against one another and against some standard of what is ‘true’ in order to choose the ‘best’ stone. Comparing one JA stone against another where the image was presumably made using the same methodology and that were judged on the same basis may be worthwhile but comparing hearts between vendors is fraught with troubles and there is no benchmark for comparison unless the dealer or customer chooses to use one. TrueHearts™ is a brand and ‘truth’ is matching some a standard that doesn’t exist in this case.

If the question being asked is whether it’s a TrueHearts™, obviously it is because JA says it is. The question was not how it compares to other TrueHearts™ much less how it compares to some other vendors stones and there's simply no way to answer how it stacks up against some benchmark for truth because there is no such benchmark.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Neil, does this then beg the question of what your job is?

If a customer comes to you, wondering if he is really getting "hearts" with his purchase, what approach will you use to reply?

Obviously, the approach that "everything is relative" is not going to be satisfactory from the point of view of a typical customer going to visit their respective appraiser.
 
I use the HRD rules when I call something Hearts and Arrows. I would call it a TrueHearts™ if the paper trail supports that branding, regardless of whether I call it an H&A.

I very rarely get this question by the way.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Date: 3/9/2010 11:24:33 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Neil, does this then beg the question of what your job is?

If a customer comes to you, wondering if he is really getting 'hearts' with his purchase, what approach will you use to reply?

Obviously, the approach that 'everything is relative' is not going to be satisfactory from the point of view of a typical customer going to visit their respective appraiser.
I would hope that all PS dealers would use Brian's terms http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/65/1/Hearts-and-Arrows-Diamonds-and-The-Basics-of-Diamond-Cutting.aspx now maybe the cleft part and whether its 8% or not would be somewhat relaxed especially in diamonds with longer LGFs but otherwise you would expect everyone's criteria to be similar to his.

If not then call any round diamond "BlablabaHearts" and it will be true and completely useless. It doesn't have to be this complicated it only is because dealers try to pass off diamonds with varying degrees of near perfect optical symmetry as having a perfect hearts pattern.
 
Date: 3/9/2010 11:41:38 AM
Author: denverappraiser
I use the HRD rules when I call something Hearts and Arrows. I would call it a TrueHearts™ if the paper trail supports that branding, regardless of whether I call it an H&A.

I very rarely get this question by the way.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Link to HRD rules please.
 
Date: 3/9/2010 11:47:13 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover
Date: 3/9/2010 11:41:38 AM

Author: denverappraiser

I use the HRD rules when I call something Hearts and Arrows. I would call it a TrueHearts™ if the paper trail supports that branding, regardless of whether I call it an H&A.

I very rarely get this question by the way.

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver
Link to HRD rules please.

http://www.hrdantwerp.be/content/certification/certificates/additional_services/pdf/hearts_arrows_guidelines.pdf
 
I agree with CCL that the rules for "perfect hearts" have been clearly spelled out in the Brian Gavin document, but my question remains:

How much does perfect patterning (in this case perfect hearts patterning) affect performance?

I ask this, because in this thread linked by Ira at the beginning of this thread link John Pollard (and others) make the point that perfect patterning does not guarantee perfect performance. To guarantee excellent performance, a consumer also has to make sure the rest of the cutting (angles, facets) have been cut correctly to ensure a well-performing stone, not just a well-patterned stone (i.,e, cut consistency).

What I am surmising, from reading that thread, is that it would indeed be possible to find diamonds with perfect patterning that are so-so performers?

So if my surmising is true -- and please someone chime in if it's not -- cutters could master the art of cutting perfect hearts, but the stone could still fall short in the performance arena if the rest of the angles/facets are not expertly cut?
 
"true hearts" just an opinion.i think the consumer needs to draw their own line on what is a true H&A stone.
 
Date: 3/9/2010 12:02:55 PM
Author: sarap333

What I am surmising, from reading that thread, is that it would indeed be possible to find diamonds with perfect patterning that are so-so performers?

So if my surmising is true -- and please someone chime in if it''s not -- cutters could master the art of cutting perfect hearts, but the stone could still fall short in the performance arena if the rest of the angles/facets are not expertly cut?
Sara, that this is true is I think, an old story.

But, just because you use the alphabet to spell a word, doesn''t mean you still shouldn''t get the construction of each of the letters correct.

Knowing that hearts is not the total story...still...you want to understand the hearts piece...if you''re going to represent that that''s part of the package you''re looking for.

Better still...do you need hearts, per se, if you even have good angles, to get precision patterning. I think not. Figuring out better ways, maybe, to get agreement on what precision patterning seems a reasonable target to me...not that that''s what anybody''s representing they''re talking about here.

Here...you want to give people what you''re representing you''re giving them. That''s what''s being questioned, I think.
 
Date: 3/9/2010 12:02:55 PM
Author: sarap333
I agree with CCL that the rules for ''perfect hearts'' have been clearly spelled out in the Brian Gavin document, but my question remains:

How much does perfect patterning (in this case perfect hearts patterning) affect performance?
methink is more of a "mind clean" kind of thing. i''ve seen some (well cut) non perfect hearts perform very well.
30.gif
 
Date: 3/9/2010 9:02:54 AM
Author: denverappraiser
‘Hearts and Arrows’ is an attribute that does not have accepted standards, rather like rating a car as a ‘creampuff’.

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

I want to clarify what I believe Neil is saying here and I''ve edited out all of the other stuff so that the focus is on this sentence and this sentence only... "Hearts & Arrows" does not have "accepted standards" in that there is a wide variance in what is referred to as "Hearts & Arrows" throughout the industry, just like there are a lot of diamonds referred to as "ideal cut" which truly are far from the mark.

However, there ARE well known "standards" for what is considered to be a true "Hearts & Arrows" quality diamond, as noted, the HRD Laboratory in Belgium ''recently'' published their standards of grading for diamonds which exhibit a pattern of hearts and arrows... But those of us who have represented H&A quality diamonds for many years, recognize that much of this stems from the original grading standards set forth by the Zenhokyo Gemological Laboratory and Central Gemological Laboratory of Japan - so it''s not that there are not "standards" for grading Hearts & Arrows patterns, it''s just that those "standards" are not widely accepted by (the majority of) the industry
2.gif
 
Date: 3/9/2010 12:02:55 PM
Author: sarap333
I agree with CCL that the rules for ''perfect hearts'' have been clearly spelled out in the Brian Gavin document, but my question remains:

How much does perfect patterning (in this case perfect hearts patterning) affect performance?

I ask this, because in this thread linked by Ira at the beginning of this thread link John Pollard (and others) make the point that perfect patterning does not guarantee perfect performance. To guarantee excellent performance, a consumer also has to make sure the rest of the cutting (angles, facets) have been cut correctly to ensure a well-performing stone, not just a well-patterned stone (i.,e, cut consistency).

What I am surmising, from reading that thread, is that it would indeed be possible to find diamonds with perfect patterning that are so-so performers?

So if my surmising is true -- and please someone chime in if it''s not -- cutters could master the art of cutting perfect hearts, but the stone could still fall short in the performance arena if the rest of the angles/facets are not expertly cut?
Much more skill and time is needed to get the perfect hearts than to get perfect arrows or to get the pavillion and crown angles to be complimentary. If a cutter is willing to take the time(and rough loss) to get perfect optical symmetry they are also highly likely to take the time to produce a near tolk ideal as well. On Pricescope we love to point out the exception the rare case where this is possible even if only theoretical. If a vendor is providing an ideal hearts and arrows image(by Brian''s criteria) it is more than likely they rest of the proportions are near ideal as well.
 
Date: 3/9/2010 12:21:14 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 3/9/2010 12:02:55 PM
Author: sarap333
I agree with CCL that the rules for ''perfect hearts'' have been clearly spelled out in the Brian Gavin document, but my question remains:

How much does perfect patterning (in this case perfect hearts patterning) affect performance?

I ask this, because in this thread linked by Ira at the beginning of this thread link John Pollard (and others) make the point that perfect patterning does not guarantee perfect performance. To guarantee excellent performance, a consumer also has to make sure the rest of the cutting (angles, facets) have been cut correctly to ensure a well-performing stone, not just a well-patterned stone (i.,e, cut consistency).

What I am surmising, from reading that thread, is that it would indeed be possible to find diamonds with perfect patterning that are so-so performers?

So if my surmising is true -- and please someone chime in if it''s not -- cutters could master the art of cutting perfect hearts, but the stone could still fall short in the performance arena if the rest of the angles/facets are not expertly cut?
Much more skill and time is needed to get the perfect hearts than to get perfect arrows or to get the pavillion and crown angles to be complimentary. If a cutter is willing to take the time(and rough loss) to get perfect optical symmetry they are also highly likely to take the time to produce a near tolk ideal as well. On Pricescope we love to point out the exception the rare case where this is possible even if only theoretical. If a vendor is providing an ideal hearts and arrows image(by Brian''s criteria) it is more than likely they rest of the proportions are near ideal as well.
agree !!
36.gif
 
Date: 3/9/2010 11:50:07 AM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 3/9/2010 11:47:13 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 3/9/2010 11:41:38 AM

Author: denverappraiser

I use the HRD rules when I call something Hearts and Arrows. I would call it a TrueHearts™ if the paper trail supports that branding, regardless of whether I call it an H&A.

I very rarely get this question by the way.

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver
Link to HRD rules please.

http://www.hrdantwerp.be/content/certification/certificates/additional_services/pdf/hearts_arrows_guidelines.pdf
Thanks SC, thats really thorough and it would be nice if this was used by other labs.
 
Date: 3/9/2010 12:12:18 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Date: 3/9/2010 12:02:55 PM

Author: sarap333


What I am surmising, from reading that thread, is that it would indeed be possible to find diamonds with perfect patterning that are so-so performers?


So if my surmising is true -- and please someone chime in if it's not -- cutters could master the art of cutting perfect hearts, but the stone could still fall short in the performance arena if the rest of the angles/facets are not expertly cut?

Sara, that this is true is I think, an old story.


But, just because you use the alphabet to spell a word, doesn't mean you still shouldn't get the construction of each of the letters correct.


Knowing that hearts is not the total story...still...you want to understand the hearts piece...if you're going to represent that that's part of the package you're looking for.


Better still...do you need hearts, per se, if you even have good angles, to get precision patterning. I think not. Figuring out better ways, maybe, to get agreement on what precision patterning seems a reasonable target to me...not that that's what anybody's representing they're talking about here.


Here...you want to give people what you're representing you're giving them. That's what's being questioned, I think.

Agreed, Ira. I don't think I was being clear. I do think that there are way too many companies jumping on the H&A bandwagon without adequate explanation of what their standards are. And, yes, if a consumer is paying for perfect hearts, the vendor should clearly state what their definition of that is, so the consumer knows what they are getting for their money.

But what concerns me from a consumer protection standpoint is that consumers do not seem to understand the difference between paying for and being guaranteed perfect patterning (H&A) and paying for performance.

Many vendor H&A marketing campaigns (I hope not deliberately) seem to equate perfect hearts with performance. I say seem to, because it's actually what they don't say in their marketing that concerns me -- the connection between perfect hearts and superior performance is implied. The "cream puff" car analogy by one of the appraisers above is a good one.

And I am I concerned that consumers are assuming that paying a premium for the H&A patterning also guarantees them a stone that is an excellent performer.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I do seem to be seeing some confusion on the part of newbies as to what the premium for H&A patterning really buys them.
 
Date: 3/9/2010 12:21:14 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover
Date: 3/9/2010 12:02:55 PM

Author: sarap333

I agree with CCL that the rules for 'perfect hearts' have been clearly spelled out in the Brian Gavin document, but my question remains:


How much does perfect patterning (in this case perfect hearts patterning) affect performance?

(edited for space constraints)
Much more skill and time is needed to get the perfect hearts than to get perfect arrows or to get the pavillion and crown angles to be complimentary. If a cutter is willing to take the time(and rough loss) to get perfect optical symmetry they are also highly likely to take the time to produce a near tolk ideal as well. On Pricescope we love to point out the exception the rare case where this is possible even if only theoretical. If a vendor is providing an ideal hearts and arrows image(by Brian's criteria) it is more than likely they rest of the proportions are near ideal as well.

I know this is commonly stated on PS. I'm not sure if it's true or if it's PS accumulated wisdom. I honestly don't know. And I don't know if "more than likely" is the standard I want used in judging the cut quality of a stone.
 
I think all we can do for the foreseeable future is evaluate each diamond for cut precison/ performance on a case by case basis to make sure we are best serving the consumer that wants the best cut precision/ performance they can get.
 
Date: 3/9/2010 12:35:03 PM
Author: sarap333

Date: 3/9/2010 12:12:18 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 3/9/2010 12:02:55 PM

Author: sarap333


What I am surmising, from reading that thread, is that it would indeed be possible to find diamonds with perfect patterning that are so-so performers?


So if my surmising is true -- and please someone chime in if it''s not -- cutters could master the art of cutting perfect hearts, but the stone could still fall short in the performance arena if the rest of the angles/facets are not expertly cut?

Sara, that this is true is I think, an old story.


But, just because you use the alphabet to spell a word, doesn''t mean you still shouldn''t get the construction of each of the letters correct.


Knowing that hearts is not the total story...still...you want to understand the hearts piece...if you''re going to represent that that''s part of the package you''re looking for.


Better still...do you need hearts, per se, if you even have good angles, to get precision patterning. I think not. Figuring out better ways, maybe, to get agreement on what precision patterning seems a reasonable target to me...not that that''s what anybody''s representing they''re talking about here.


Here...you want to give people what you''re representing you''re giving them. That''s what''s being questioned, I think.

Agreed, Ira. I don''t think I was being clear. I do think that there are way too many companies jumping on the H&A bandwagon without adequate explanation of what their standards are. And, yes, if a consumer is paying for perfect hearts, the vendor should clearly state what their definition of that is, so the consumer knows what they are getting for their money. ''

But what concerns me from a consumer protection standpoint is that consumers do not seem to understand the difference between paying for and being guaranteed perfect patterning (H&A) and paying for performance.

Many vendor H&A marketing campaigns (I hope not deliberately) seem to equate perfect hearts with performance. I say seem to, because it''s actually what they don''t say in their marketing that concerns me -- the connection between perfect hearts and superior performance is implied. The ''cream puff'' car analogy by one of the appraisers above is a good one.

And I am I concerned that consumers are assuming that paying a premium for the H&A patterning also guarantees them a stone that is an excellent performer.

Maybe I''m wrong, but I do seem to be seeing some confusion on the part of newbies as to what the premium for H&A patterning really buys them.
The problem which I think you are highlighting is the case where:

1) The vendor calls the stone Heart and Arrows and may even be inscribed on the girdle and thus listed in the comments section of the certificate.
2) The stone is not in fact a true hearts and arrows stone by the definition of Brian or HRD the vendor uses the term more liberally.
3) Combined with the fact that its not a true hearts and arrows it also isn''t a top performing stone for other reasons (CA/PA mismatch etc.)
4) The consumer assumes because they have seen information equating top performance with hearts and arrows top symmetry that all stones called hearts and arrows have top light return performance as well.

I wouldn''t blame the companies that do market their stones as having top symmetry and thus top performance regardless of whether they explicitly or implicitly state the two are independant.

I would blame the vendor who is misrepresenting both the symmetry and performance of their stones and trying to mislead consumers with the term Hearts and Arrows who is either implicitly or explicitly equating all hearts and arrows stones as the same and top performers.

I still don''t see any vendors who have a strict definition for optical precision but then relax their standards on light return and leakage. If they are liberal with one criteria they are usually liberal with others as well.
 
Great points, CCL. I won't quote the whole post -- these things get way too long that way.

But, I will say, that as the public slowly, oh, so slowly, becomes educated on cut quality, the potential by vendors for "H&A abuse"
2.gif
is there. We live in a bubble on PS and hold the vendors' feet to the fire.

Not so in the "real world." A locally-owned store in my small city is running advertisements that they "carry only well-cut diamonds, because cut is key to beauty." I'll be interested to see what that means when I pay them a visit later this week.
 
Date: 3/9/2010 11:41:38 AM
Author: denverappraiser
I use the HRD rules when I call something Hearts and Arrows. I would call it a TrueHearts™ if the paper trail supports that branding, regardless of whether I call it an H&A.


I very rarely get this question by the way.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

This gets to the heart (groan!) of the matter.

Interesting that it''s not something Neil''s customers ask him, given all the attention it gets around here.

So, unless the "TrueHearts" branding commands a premium dollar on the secondary market (like Cartier or Tiffany), it is not worth the paper it is printed on if there are no company standards to back up the claim of TrueHearts? Or, put another way, no standards clearly articulated to the consumer.

In other words, it''s like buying Martha Stewart (tm) brand towels vs. Target (tm) towels? Dueling brand names?
 
Date: 3/9/2010 12:58:17 PM
Author: sarap333
Great points, CCL. I won''t quote the whole post -- these things get way too long that way.

But, I will say, that as the public slowly, oh, so slowly, becomes educated on cut quality, the potential by vendors for ''H&A abuse''
2.gif
is there. We live in a bubble on PS and hold the vendors'' feet to the fire.

Not so in the ''real world.'' A locally-owned store in my small city is running advertisements that they ''carry only well-cut diamonds, because cut is key to beauty.'' I''ll be interested to see what that means when I pay them a visit later this week.

I like the bubble we live in
2.gif
 
A lot of information, thanks everyone! I learned quite a bit more after reading through all of your posts. Although, unless I missed it, I didn''t see any mentioning of the HCA. If it is possible to get "True Hearts", yet the performance lacks, would the HCA show that, or is there a way to "trick" the HCA into calculating great performance, yet in reality, it''s sub-par?
 
About,

I think if you read any of Sara''s posts here, she''s cautioning you.

But...what I didn''t say here, but what you can look for...is what they use to call WSYWIG.

My experience is that with JA, whenever he presents "TrueHearts," he also presents an IS. Most folks who like to consider the HCA, regard the test of an IS only an improvement on what HCA tells you any way.

So, judge with HCA, and double check that test with the IS view that Jim presents along with his TrueHearts view.

What Storm/Karl sometimes says about JA is that their photos are good. Frankly, their product may not be as reliably good as some other "truly branded" options, but it is likely that you can see much of what you get, before you get it.

I''ll bet Jim would be satisfied to say as much about his product, and be respected for doing that, as well.
 
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