Trace origins of diamond

[helios_haze]

Has anyone gone beyond the cert and tried to trace more details of their e-Diamond?

I'd be curious about things like:
Country of origin
Cutting co.
Cutter
Mine of origin
Etc.

I'd love to hear opinions on how much of this is possible or if anyone has succeeded in a similar endeavor.

Thanks!

 

[denverappraiser]

There are cutting houses and dealers who market stones including some or all of this information but for a ‘generic’ purchase it’s been lost in the process and there’s no way to get it back.

For example, the identity of the cutter.

Obviously the cutter knew it while they were working on the stone for at least the portion of the job that he/she was working on. There’s a pretty good chance that the cutters boss knew it and, at the time the job was completed could identify every worker at every step of the process. Did this get passed along to their customer? This will depend on the relationship between the cutting house and the dealer and the intentions for how to market the stone but probably not although the dealer probably knew who the cutting house was. Did they tell their client? Again, possibly but probably not. At each step, the information is lost and no one further down chain will be able to recover it. The same applies to the individual miner, the mining company, the shipping companies, the tax collectors the graders, the bench jewelers and all of the others who are involved with the stone before it reaches your beloved’s finger. SOMEBODY knew where it was mined, on what day, and even in what part of the mine. They knew who found it, how many kids he has and what village he lives in. It’s possible to include this sort of thing but it’s rarely done. This would, of course, significantly raise the prices to do this and convincing them to do it is all about the money. How much extra would it be worth to you and what information would you like to know?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[glitterata]

I recently bought a beautiful Infinity brand diamond from Wink Jones, and when I asked Wink for more information, Paul Slegers of Infinity told me what country my diamond came from, how big the rough was, what they originally estimated the size, color, and clarity would turn out to be when they made the cutting decision, and (of course) how it in fact turned out. I didn''t ask the name of the cutter, but I''m sure Paul knows that information. I didn''t ask what exact mine my stone came from--he might know that, too. (Paul, if you''re reading this, do you know the exact mine?)

 

[dbsdiamonds]

Anything could be said to hit the "flavor of the day"...with most cutters using various sources the parcel of the rough purchase would have to be tracked and from there confirmed if bought directly from a particular mine or a source who deals on the rough side of the business.

I''ve seen instances where diamonds were supposedley cut in Russia, or Israel or wherever the consumer was hoping the diamond was cut from and of course the Afican continents have been avoided on this topic for years.

Not to say your question can''t be answered but maybe take with a grain of salt...

Marty
CEO/Pres
DBS Diamonds

 

[glitterata]

Aren''t Kimberley Process participants required to know the country of origin, at least of newly imported rough? So Pricescope sellers who buy rough and have it cut, or who cut it themselves, ought to be able to tell you what country the rough came from.

 

[denverappraiser]

The miner who found it knew who found it and also where and when, the cutters who worked on it knew who did their part, the setter who set it knew who set it, etc. etc.

Each worker knows at least their own part of the deal. Collecting and passing this information forward is extra work and extra money. It also treads on some proprietary information for the various people involved. The big mining companies, for example, aren’t especially interested folks knowing what mines are doing well and which are doing poorly, what techniques are working well, who are the most productive workers, etc. Failing an incentive to make this information public, who’s surprised that they’re secretive about it? The answer is in the money. Is a diamond with the full mine-to-finger history worth double? Half again? Triple? These are not gemological questions. They have to do with what customers count as valuable. I’ve always been a little surprised that we haven’t seen more diamond companies marketing this sort of thing and I’m fairly confident that they don’t do it because they’ve concluded that customers are unwilling to pay a sufficient price to justify the added work. Are they right? Who knows. I’ve asked this sort of question a fair number of times and have yet to hear an answer from a consumer that they would be willing to pay anything more than a token premium for a fully documented stone. They want it if it’s free. Otherwise most don’t seem to care all that much.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/13/2008 1:50:02 PM
Author: glitterata
Aren''t Kimberley Process participants required to know the country of origin, at least of newly imported rough? So Pricescope sellers who buy rough and have it cut, or who cut it themselves, ought to be able to tell you what country the rough came from.

Absolutely!

Paul and his partner Lieve inspect each parcel before they bid on it, and when they win the bid they select the stones from that parcel that are worth cutting to their demanding standards, then they resell the balance of the parcel.

Paul then consults with the cutter and they mark each stone individually as to what is to be done to it. Since Paul is in constant contact with the cutter on each individual stone he knows much more about it than a huge house would. It is one of the advantages to working with a cutter who has only one goal, the maximizing of the beauty of each and every stone that they cut.

So, while dbsdiamonds may be correct that some cutters will tell you what you want to hear, I know that Paul has never held back telling a client where the diamond is from, whether it is from Canada, or which country in Africa. He knows that his diamonds are obtained legally and from where they are obtained and he is proud to share that information.

Wink

 

[glitterata]

Wink, do you know whether Paul knows the exact mine where the diamond comes from, or just the country?

 

[dbsdiamonds]

I reread this and didn''t want to imply that ALL cutters will say what they want. It''s just through the trading process as more hands handle the goods then the "origins" issue become reliant on the passing of accurate info.

Personally if I found the rough in the mine, hand carried it out, had that cut myself then I could authenticate with 100% accuracy the origin. If I didn''t do these steps personally then I am relying on others for this info, so judge it 100% accurate as you like...

We do know that ALL diamond people, whether in the mines, in in an office, always tell the truth, right?

Certainly there would be no reason for GIA, AGS, HCA, Aset and all the other tools then...

Marty
CEO/Pres
DBS Diamonds

 

[purrfectpear]

I wouldn''t pay one penny extra to know where my diamond came from, who cut it, etc.

Free, sure.

 

[glitterata]

I''m not sure how much extra I would pay for the information, but it was a selling point for me, and I can imagine excluding sellers that didn''t offer it. Knowing that Paul knew where my diamond came from and was willing to tell me reassures me that it''s not a conflict diamond, for one thing.

 

[John P]

Date: 8/13/2008 1:32:28 PM
Author: glitterata

I recently bought a beautiful Infinity brand diamond from Wink Jones, and when I asked Wink for more information, Paul Slegers of Infinity told me what country my diamond came from, how big the rough was, what they originally estimated the size, color, and clarity would turn out to be when they made the cutting decision, and (of course) how it in fact turned out. I didn't ask the name of the cutter, but I'm sure Paul knows that information...

We can narrow it down further. The Infinity cut team includes just one Sawyer and one polisher. Both are extremely well regarded, in fact the polisher is one of the rare remaining craftsmen who can take a diamond through every stage from sawn to polish; nearly unheard-of in today's assembly-line world. Those maestros will have apprentices of course, but in terms of planning & execution only three men actually craft Infinity, and Paul is the first and last word.

Wink, do you know whether Paul knows the exact mine where the diamond comes from, or just the country?

Bear in mind that there are pipe operations and there are alluvial operations. Since your diamond came from a country with alluvial mining there is not a “hole in the ground” per se, but regions which the mining house controls. In countries where kimberlite pipes are prevalent one might better know the pipe it comes from, but even then yield from several operations owned by one sightholder may be combined and sorted at one location. All rough must be mined-exported though legitimate channels but, like a grocery store, the receipt proves you purchased the can of soup you’re bringing home from Kroger (not off the street) but it doesn't identify the aisle or shelf from which that soup came in the market.

Once the rough passes through KPCS and the strict Belgian AML laws (in our case) it becomes further sorted and parceled at trading houses, mixed when sold or re-distributed and then re-sorted yet again when planned. We buy from the trading houses and typically know country-of-origin directly from them. Even still, something that blew me away in Antwerp is that experienced diamantaires like Paul and Lieve will often know the country of origin - just from the composition, look and feel of the parcel. It reminds me of wine tasting experts who nail region, label and year from a taste of the vintage.

Edited to add: By this time I thought Paul would be in his wee little bed, with visions of perfect octas dancing in his wee little head, but he appears to be posting now. If he sees this he may have comments to add from the captain’s chair.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/13/2008 2:20:10 PM
Author: glitterata
Wink, do you know whether Paul knows the exact mine where the diamond comes from, or just the country?

This I would have to ask Paul to address. I suspect that sometimes he does and sometimes he does not, but it could be that always he does. I will not even guess.

It is after midnight there, but I will send an email for him to see when he wakes up this morning. (Tomorrow morning for us.)

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Ah, and I see Sir John has also weighed in.

He may out rank me, but I out weight him... (bada bang!)

Wink

 

[helios_haze]

Thanks all!

I was appreciating the diamond I purchased and just grew curious. I wouldn''t pay too much more for high level ''origins'' info - maybe a couple of hundred at the most.