Too much emphasis on #s?

[Ty Cobb]

Well I have been running around this site for 6 weeks or so as a poster, little bit longer as a member of the silent masses, and have learned a lot. I bought a .89 channel set e-ring from Tiffany''s last week and am now enjoying the grueling agony of waiting until November to pop the question. Hey, I have something pretty to stare at now right Anyway, I have been reading some of the really old post from before I came here and some of the newer ones, and have found something either humorous or disturbing in a trend I am seeing.

People come on here and start throwing the numbers around and asking if this is good or that is good or what have you. Then you ask them what the stone looks like and 7 out of 10 times they haven''t even seen the stone. Now, I know with e-commerce and such, it isn''t always easy to see the stone before hand and such, but really and truly when I was doing my shopping at Tiffs, the stone I found that by the measurements should have been the 3rd best stone, vissually was easily the best in north light conditions, not store lights.


So while I don''t really see it as a problem perse'', it is funny to me when people put insane emphasis on a stone''s measurements without have taken a good gander at it. Plus, I don''t like how some narrow it down to a single stone and then look at the stone by itself. Sure you can tell if it is a good stone or not, but having other quality stones to compare to and see which has the best fire and such. Anyway, just my entire overated observation on the afore mentioned subject.

 

[fanboy]

I understand your point; after all, what matters most is what the thing looks like in real life, and numbers can hardly give you a lucid representation alone.

However, overall, I think the emphasis on numbers is liberating. Without understanding the math behind a stone''s performance, we are left to depend on what stones look like in stores, and what salespeople tell us about them. Armed with an understanding of the numbers, one can start to compare stones from difference sources at difference prices, even when they are not side-by-side. Your eyes aren''t necessarily your best guidance in such situations since lighting easily manipulates a stone''s appearance and we tend to adapt our preferences depending on the situation.

Also, numbers can be helpful when you are looking for something you will not be able to see in the flesh first. I was looking for a Royal Asscher, for example. They are pretty rare, so when one with the right specifications showed up, I had to pounce. Without numbers, I would have been clueless and empty-handed.

 

[RockDoc]

Depending on the shape of the stone, the numbers are NOT 100% predictable as to how the stone will perform.

Using the proportions of the round brilliant has a higher level of predictibility - but I believe even that is only about 70% reliable.
Fancy shape stone proportion are far less reliable.

To be reasonably accurate in determining this characteristic - the stone HAS to be seen, and advanced instrumentation used to separate the close to best from the very best.

Then there is the issue of just how "trained" the person is doing the examination. Before you can do this well you need to have seen at least hundreds of stones in the very best categories.

Rockdoc

 

[Ty Cobb]

Don''t get me wrong, I definitely see the value in getting the numbers as part of the weeding out process. However, it seems lots of times people settle on one "Rock" to actually look at rather then multiple diamonds. I just tend to favor comparing multiple stones rather then just looking at them one at a time. I had to wait 10 days to make a choice on my ring, because I wanted Tiffs to show me 3 channel and 3 beaded so I could compare them side by side and in the end it was worth it. But yes, I did use the #''s to start off.

 

[Ellen]

I don''t know of too many people who can purchase multiple diamonds when buying from an internet vendor.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 6/4/2007 6:27:28 PM
Author: Ellen
I don''t know of too many people who can purchase multiple diamonds when buying from an internet vendor.

Hi Ellen

Many vendors when sending to an appraiser will send multiple stones to the appraiser without the consumer having to pay for the stone til he/she chooses one. The only extra cost is the shipping expense, and the testing for the stone(s) the consumer wants tested. Most appraisers would charge for the one they pick.

I have had even clients that have had 5 or more stones sent in to pick from.

Generally two is sufficient, but that of course is a personal decision.

Rockdoc

 

[snlee]

Date: 6/4/2007 6:27:28 PM
Author: Ellen
I don't know of too many people who can purchase multiple diamonds when buying from an internet vendor.

Agreed. If you're going to purchase a diamond online, you don't have the option to look at many diamonds side by side to compare. Using numbers is an important key to help narrow down our selection.

 

[widget]

Date: 6/4/2007 6:19:24 PM
Author: RockDoc

Using the proportions of the round brilliant has a higher level of predictibility - but I believe even that is only about 70% reliable.

Now there''s a number you don''t hear around here too often!!!

widget

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/4/2007 6:40:42 PM
Author: RockDoc
Hi Ellen

Many vendors when sending to an appraiser will send multiple stones to the appraiser without the consumer having to pay for the stone til he/she chooses one. The only extra cost is the shipping expense, and the testing for the stone(s) the consumer wants tested. Most appraisers would charge for the one they pick.

I have had even clients that have had 5 or more stones sent in to pick from.

Generally two is sufficient, but that of course is a personal decision.

Rockdoc

Rockdoc, will the vendors send the stones to just any ole appraiser? Because I don''t live close to any PS ones.

 

[strmrdr]

This ol crapola again.

The numbers are just one part of the online buying puzzle.
The typical PS buyer has the following info:

The vendors eyes and reputation.
The numbers and tools based on them which is more like 98% with rounds if all the tools are used when combined with images.
IS and or ASET images.
Regular pictures.
Multiple opinions on the above.

Rockdoc whats the difference between you and trusted vendors like Jon, Wink, Gary, and Brian looking over a diamond?
What can you tell me they cant?

An independent appraisal is a good thing to have done but its nearly last in the chain of puzzle pieces not a starting point.
Just like no consumer can afford to have a 1000 diamonds sent to them they cant afford to have them sent to you either.
That is the vendors job too make that cut, and if the vendor cant then its time for a new vendor.
The next step is the numbers and images.
Then once the info is gathered get opinions one off which might be an appraisers but isn''t required at that point if the rest of the pieces are in place.
If a vendor couldn''t provide all the info I needed then I might consider having an appraiser provide the info if the stone was something special not available from a vendor who provides enough info.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/4/2007 6:44:04 PM
Author: widget

Date: 6/4/2007 6:19:24 PM
Author: RockDoc

Using the proportions of the round brilliant has a higher level of predictibility - but I believe even that is only about 70% reliable.

Now there''s a number you don''t hear around here too often!!!

widget

add IS and ASET and h&a images and a trusted vendor and your at 100%.
Personally the numbers are a rejection tool before going on too other info.

 

[Ty Cobb]

The point of this thread was not bad mouthing numbers, but more the idea that people depend on them too heavily. I seriously think that there are stones that look better then the numbers, aset, ideal scope stuff indicates. I have no issue with using them as a tool to weed out, but I just don''t get people only looking at one stone.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 6/4/2007 9:17:49 PM
Author: strmrdr
This ol crapola again.

The numbers are just one part of the online buying puzzle.
The typical PS buyer has the following info:

The vendors eyes and reputation.
The numbers and tools based on them which is more like 98% with rounds if all the tools are used when combined with images.
IS and or ASET images.
Regular pictures.
Multiple opinions on the above.

Rockdoc whats the difference between you and trusted vendors like Jon, Wink, Gary, and Brian looking over a diamond?
What can you tell me they cant?

An independent appraisal is a good thing to have done but its nearly last in the chain of puzzle pieces not a starting point.
Just like no consumer can afford to have a 1000 diamonds sent to them they cant afford to have them sent to you either.
That is the vendors job too make that cut, and if the vendor cant then its time for a new vendor.
The next step is the numbers and images.
Then once the info is gathered get opinions one off which might be an appraisers but isn''t required at that point if the rest of the pieces are in place.
If a vendor couldn''t provide all the info I needed then I might consider having an appraiser provide the info if the stone was something special not available from a vendor who provides enough info.

RE; Checking 1000 stones and paying for them.

You''re saying things you DON''T know as fact, Storm. I don''t charge for every stone that are sent in. Only the one(s) THE consumer wants checked. So the customer gets choices, and can compare to help pick the right one.

If a client wants to see "whatever" number of stones the seller sends in, he/she comes in we go over all the stones, and we pick ONE to test, and they didn''t have to pay in advance to get several stones sent in so they know that they''re choice is the best one, rather than being "linited". As I said above the only extra cost is for the shipping back.

As for what I can do here, to answer your statement, yes I can do more, and do. The average of my reports totals 20-40 photos, and around 30 pages of data.

One thing I can do is with the new PGS software, I can provide AGS cut grades for rounds, princess, emeralds and Asschers.

I''ve had people fly in from all over the US, spend a lot of time learning, and have even had some fly in from overseas, not just those who are local. Fortunately, flying into FL is cheap. So a lot of people do come from out of town. So when you consider the charge ( average $ 150.00 ) for 5 hours of work, it is a bargain in exchange for the abiity to see and to have peace of mind from an independent source.

Rockdoc

 

[RockDoc]

Ellen wrote:

Rockdoc, will the vendors send the stones to just any ole appraiser? Because I don''t live close to any PS ones

_______________________

I haven''t had any problems with most vendors. Most are happy to do this, cause they know I''m not going to mishandle their stones, or they know Im reliable and responsible. Other appraisers are too, but some the sellers don''t have any experience with, so in those instances, whether the vendor is in agreement to send stones depends on who the appraiser is.


Whether they will send their valued items to "just any ole appraiser" is really a decision that is up to them.

Rockdoc

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 6/4/2007 10:44:25 PM
Author: Ty Cobb
The point of this thread was not bad mouthing numbers, but more the idea that people depend on them too heavily. I seriously think that there are stones that look better then the numbers, aset, ideal scope stuff indicates. I have no issue with using them as a tool to weed out, but I just don't get people only looking at one stone.

Usually when someone orders a stone, it meets their criteria. Especially when they have put a lot of reasearch into finding the one. If it doesn't meet their expectations they return the stone, no questions asked. But I'd say most people get it right on the first shot. You can have stones sent to an independent appraiser, and then pick the one you want. Vendors here are very good about that.
Numbers are a guideline, a very necessary one. And Tiff's has a huge markup, people know they can get a better cut stone and skip the blue box. And yeah, my ering, see avatar came from Tiff's. I love it, wouldn't trade it for anything. But by being an informed consumer on here, you can get it right, without having to see lots and lots of stones. It's all about the education. I am not talking about fancy cuts, rather RB's...

 

[Ty Cobb]

my point had nothing to do with Tiffs, I am quite aware there is better out there for better prices, my point though has just been to suggest looking at more then one stone.

This was in no way a Tiff is better then anything else thread.

 

[soupcxan]

Why on earth would you buy a nice ring and then sit on it for 6 months to pop the question? I can understanding waiting a few weeks if you had a special trip or event planned but that''s just ridiculous.

 

[jaz464]

Date: 6/5/2007 1:35:41 PM
Author: soupcxan
Why on earth would you buy a nice ring and then sit on it for 6 months to pop the question? I can understanding waiting a few weeks if you had a special trip or event planned but that's just ridiculous.

Not necessarily. Perhaps there is an anniversary or other special occasion he is waiting for. What if it is a long distance relationship? There are a million reasons. Diamond prices are rising, so if you have the money now, I suggest buying now. The same diamond will most likely be more expensive in 6 months.

Nothing wrong with planning ahead to save $$.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/4/2007 10:49:54 PM
Author: RockDoc

RE; Checking 1000 stones and paying for them.

You''re saying things you DON''T know as fact, Storm. I don''t charge for every stone that are sent in. Only the one(s) THE consumer wants checked. So the customer gets choices, and can compare to help pick the right one.

I am well aware how your service works, it is a nice service too but no one can have thousands of stones sent too you. The first cut has to be the vendor unless someone wants too take a huge chance with a drop shipper.


If a client wants to see ''whatever'' number of stones the seller sends in, he/she comes in we go over all the stones, and we pick ONE to test, and they didn''t have to pay in advance to get several stones sent in so they know that they''re choice is the best one, rather than being ''linited''. As I said above the only extra cost is for the shipping back.

Shipping costs lets say conservative $25 a stone each way .. $50 x 1000 = $50000

As for what I can do here, to answer your statement, yes I can do more, and do. The average of my reports totals 20-40 photos, and around 30 pages of data.

My paperwork from GOG was that long.


One thing I can do is with the new PGS software, I can provide AGS cut grades for rounds, princess, emeralds and Asschers.

So can GOG and others.

I''ve had people fly in from all over the US, spend a lot of time learning, and have even had some fly in from overseas, not just those who are local. Fortunately, flying into FL is cheap. So a lot of people do come from out of town. So when you consider the charge ( average $ 150.00 ) for 5 hours of work, it is a bargain in exchange for the abiity to see and to have peace of mind from an independent source.

5hours for $150 is dirt cheap and for some people well worth it but the initial selection has to be done upstream and numbers are a part of that.
It would be worth $150 to me just to play with the toys and visit your pet rocks if I was in the area.

Rockdoc

I was hoping that you would discuss the real reason for using an appraiser.
There is something you and other independent appraisers can provide no seller can and its important that it be kept in the public''s mind.
Hint its not paper :}

 

[Cehrabehra]

I hear you and I agree... but I do think numbers serve a purpose for continued research and development - not to mention that of other cuts.

All in all there is no *pinacle* of exacted perfection. In fact even if we could find pinacles of exacted perfection there would be many of them and that doesn''t even account for preference. There is something to be said for it... I dunno if most of us could tell superideal vs almost superideal and maybe even excellent, but eventually you find a point where you DO see a difference. Some people want the best. The best clarity, the best color, the best cut. These diamonds are kinda on a scale or in a range... you can tell the difference between a 1 carat and a 2 carat on your finger but you might not tell the difference between 1.49 and 1.51. You might not even be able to tell 1.49 and 1.59 but eventually the difference becomes great enough you notice. Same with cut. If you want to be certain, pay for the best cut. EVERY person here finds a balance between the Cs including cost to figure out what their *own* "ideal" is. The numbers are just *one* took to aid us, and I don''t know anyone here who would say that having that info is irrelevant entirely in choosing a stone, particularly online.