Tolkowsky Ideal Cut not so Ideal?

[Lula]

I saw a listing on Craigslist for a Tolkowsky Ideal Cut diamond, purchased from a local store (that I know carries this brand). Specs below-- seems deep and small for its carat weight -- cut for weight retention? Graded by EGL??? I guess I expected more from this company, given the name.

1.51CT Tolkowsky Ideal Cut
Brilliant Diamond SI2 Ideal Cut EGL Certified
Shape Round Brilliant sz: 7.33 - 7.31 x4.5 mm
Total dept 62.6%
Table width 56%
Crown height 16%
Pavilion Dept 43%
Girdle THN
Polish- Very good
Syms Excellent
Culet: none
Clar sI2
Grain: Ni1
Color: G
Flour: None

 

[Dreamer_D]

Strange. Maybe it is a misrepresented stone?

 

[stone-cold11]

I think that is a cut grade given by EGL and not cut describing a stone cut by Tolkowsky.

 

[yssie]

Yeah - I've seen EGL reports w/ "Tolkowsky Ideal Cut" in the comments... I always thought that's just EGL's take on it - as in, claim not endorsed by the Tolkowsky company or anyone else



ETA: from NiceIce (http://www.niceice.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=93)

Do not be confused or misled by the appearance of the words "Tolkowsky Cut" on some diamond grading reports. The words "Tolkowsky Cut" do not necessarily mean that a diamond has been cut to Tolkowsky's exact specifications. Some laboratories will say that a diamond is "Tolkowsky Cut" or within "Tolkowsky Range" if the diamond's proportions are "within tolerance" of Tolkowsky's original calculations. According to the specifications of one laboratory, "Tolkowsky Range" is as follows:

33 - 36° Crown Angle.
40 - 41.5° Pavilion Angles.
56 - 60.5% Total Depth (excluding girdle thickness) with 14 - 16.5% of the depth being comprised of the crown (top half of the diamond) and 42 - 44% representing the pavilion lower half of the diamond.
53 - 57% Table based on diamond's overall diameter.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I was thinking on those lines as well, like it is a description not a brand. But if so, it is misleading.

 

[Lula]

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Great link/info, yssie.

Here's what's strange: The store this guy bought the diamond from has a display area with branding and diamonds from the Cut by Tolkowsky brand. And the store's webpage says they carry Cut by Tolkowsky brand diamonds: "World renowned diamantaire Jean Paul Tolkowsky, the 7th generation diamond manufacturer of the most storied diamond cutting family in the history of jewelry, continues his family’s legacy of offering the only true and original Ideal Cut Diamond."

But here's where the confusion may lie:

The listing says:

"1.51CT Tolkowsky Ideal Cut- (store name's) best diamond "

So it seems the store selling the "real" Tolkowsky branded cut -- which I've seen, and they are very nice (GOG carries this brand, too) -- and also selling their EGL stones as "Tolkowsky Ideal Cut" (which would comport with what yssie posted -- the warning on Nice Ice's site about the use of the word "Tolkowsky").

Still, it seems a little shady on the part of the retail store to sell the Cut by Tolkowsky brand, and then confuse customers by selling less-than-stellar cut and graded stones using the "Tolkowsky Ideal Cut" moniker.

ETA: Here's a link to the Cut by Tolkowsky website: http://www.exelcodiamond.com/tolkowsky.asp
You'd think this company would not want their B&M stores selling EGL graded stones as "Tolkwosky Ideal Cut," wouldn't you?

 

[yssie]

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Great link/info, yssie.

Here's what's strange: The store this guy bought the diamond from has a display area with branding and diamonds from the Cut by Tolkowsky brand. And the store's webpage says they carry Cut by Tolkowsky brand diamonds: "World renowned diamantaire Jean Paul Tolkowsky, the 7th generation diamond manufacturer of the most storied diamond cutting family in the history of jewelry, continues his family’s legacy of offering the only true and original Ideal Cut Diamond."

But here's where the confusion may lie:

The listing says:

"1.51CT Tolkowsky Ideal Cut- (store name's) best diamond "

So it seems the store selling the "real" Tolkowsky branded cut -- which I've seen, and they are very nice (GOG carries this brand, too) -- and also selling their EGL stones as "Tolkowsky Ideal Cut" (which would comport with what yssie posted -- the warning on Nice Ice's site about the use of the word "Tolkowsky").

Still, it seems a little shady on the part of the retail store to sell the Cut by Tolkowsky brand, and then confuse customers by selling less-than-stellar cut and graded stones using the "Tolkowsky Ideal Cut" moniker.

ETA: Here's a link to the Cut by Tolkowsky website: http://www.exelcodiamond.com/tolkowsky.asp
You'd think this company would not want their B&M stores selling EGL graded stones as "Tolkwosky Ideal Cut," wouldn't you?

That.. is really bizarre I, like you, would have thought they would do as much as possible to highlight the Tolkowsky brand - like, y'know, not selling the EGLs!

 

[Lula]

Yes, I thought it was strange, too, yssie. And it gets stranger... I took a little tour of their website and saw that they, like a lot of B&M stores these days, are carrying a RB with additional facets. This store calls their specialty 57+ faceted stone the "Forever After 81" and they have an EGL grading reported posted for one of these stones, and on the grading report it says "TOLKOWSKY IDEAL CUT. The proportions of this diamond are within the tolerance of those proposed by Marcel Tolkowsky, as the ideal balance between brilliance and dispersion."

The stone on the EGL report is 0.74 carats, 5.71 - 5.66 x 3.63; depth 63.7% (not a typo); table 55%; Crown height 16%; Pavilion depth 43%; girdle medium, faceted. WTH?

First of all, the depth is not even within hailing distance of Tolkowsky. Second, can a RB with 81 facets (rather than a traditional 57 facets RB) even claim to be a Tolkowsky Ideal Cut? I thought the extra facets put it into the specialty cut category -- but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm attaching the EGL report for this stone that I downloaded from the store's website. I'm not sure how well it will reproduce, but I'm leery of posting the link to the website with the store's name on it.

 

[stone-cold11]

Well, not for this case as there are extra minor facets but it is possible for TIC to have more than 57 facets, like adding a few other sets of arrows, the main proportions will still be described by the same numbers. 8 mains round will have 57 facets, 9 mains round will have 64 facets, 10 mains will have 71 facets.

 

[slg47]

I think this is a case of labeling so the diamond seems better. I am not sure how EGL decides on "Tolkowsky" as those numbers...do not match the numbers yssie posted earlier. I would be interested to learn how EGL decides to label these diamonds though!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Yes, I think what they are doing is deceptive. That last stone is way too deep and should be around 5.8mm. No way to make a judgement on the stone you are interested in without an independent appraisal since it is graded by EGL.

 

[yssie]

We know that Tolkowsky didn't "propose a range".. I would love to know EGL's exact criteria for this TIC designation. I can't find any info on the website - if anyone with more info (or better googling skills!) finds anything I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who is very curious..

 

[Gibson486]

When I had access to a diamond database, I saw that comment a lot for EGL graded diamonds.

 

[slg47]

I think most people on this thread know this but here is what I could find...

The words "Tolkowsky Cut" appear on some diamond grading reports but you have to be careful not to be confused or misled. A grading report that includes the phrase "Tolkowsky Cut" does not necessarily mean that the diamond's proportions have Tolkowsky's exact specifications. Some laboratories like the European Gemological Laboratories (EGL) will state that a diamond is "Tolkowsky Cut" or within "Tolkowsky Range" if the diamond's proportions are "within tolerance" of Tolkowsky's original calculations. However, Tolkowsky never established these ranges or tolerances.

Some laboratories like the European Gemological Laboratories (EGL) will say that a diamond is "Tolkowsky Cut" or within "Tolkowsky Range" if the diamond's proportions are "within tolerance" of Tolkowsky's original calculations. According to the EGL the specifications for their "Tolkowsky Range" are as follows:

* 33 - 36° Crown Angle.
* 40 - 41.5° Pavilion Angles.
* 56 - 60.5% Total Depth (excluding girdle thickness) with 14 - 16.5% of the depth being comprised of the crown (top half of the diamond) and 42 - 44% representing the pavilion lower half of the diamond.
* 53 - 57% Table based on diamond's overall diameter.

(from same website as above) Many "industry professionals" would agree that the following proportions are within the "Ideal Range" for a round brilliant cut diamond:

* 31.7 - 37.3° Crown Angle.
* Pavilion Depth of 41.2 - 44.8%.
* 52.4 - 63.5% Table based on diamond's overall diameter.

so yeah, would definitely be interested to see how EGL assigns "Tolkowsky ideal"

 

[Lula]

Well, not for this case as there are extra minor facets but it is possible for TIC to have more than 57 facets, like adding a few other sets of arrows, the main proportions will still be described by the same numbers. 8 mains round will have 57 facets, 9 mains round will have 64 facets, 10 mains will have 71 facets.

Thanks, Stone. This is interesting and helpful info.

 

[Lula]

Thanks for your comments, everyone. These are diamonds sold by a local store (the 1.51 carat was bought from the store and is being sold by someone on Craigslist). Just to be clear, I am not interested in buying either of these diamonds. For one thing, the Craigslist seller is asking way too much for the stone (because he paid way too much -- a common problem on Craigslist). I'm hoping this thread can serve as a "Buyer Beware"/informational thread.

slg, that is great information -- where did you find it?

It's hard to tell who is responsible for the misinformation -- EGL or the store (or both).

You've got to wonder, though, how this store explains the difference between the Cut by Tolkowsky brand (which it carries) and and its own "best stones" (according to the Craigslist seller) which are also labeled Tolkowsky Ideal Cut by EGL. "You can pay XX for the brand or buy one of our "best stones," which is also a Tolkowsky Ideal Cut, for X"?

 

[Lula]

When I had access to a diamond database, I saw that comment a lot for EGL graded diamonds.

This is interesting...I, like others have mentioned, would really like to know how EGL determines which stones get the Tolkowsky Ideal Cut rating. What standards are they using? Or is this notation something cutting houses or stores can request be added to the EGL report?

 

[denverappraiser]

‘Tolkowski Ideal’ is a term being used without permission of the Tolkowski family and, as far as I can tell, is not clearly defined even at that. It’s claimed on the EGLI documents to be near the spes given by Marcel Tolkowski in his book Diamond Design. ‘Near’ is the problem.

I’m reminded of a dealer I met a few decades ago who was selling quartz crystals at a gem show that had been ‘charged by the great pyramid’ along with a lovely photo of the pyramids in Egypt. Huh? Being a bit dogged, I pursued it with him. What the heck is that? I’m not big on some of the new age weirdness but what is a ‘charge’ as it relates to a crystal? How do you add a charge using a pyramid? How can you tell if the charge worked? Is the charge better or worse depending on what pyramid is used? Does it need to be recharged periodically? Can the consumer do this or does it need to be sent back periodically, presumably with a fee? Naturally these are all matters of faith and my lack of faith seemed to be the problem but, in the end, it was agreed that this phrase means roughly the same thing as ‘shared a planet’. Ok then. So what does Tolkowski Ideal mean? I still don’t know (and yes, I’ve asked). This too seems to require some faith. One thing I‘m confident of is that it has nothing whatever to do with Cut by Tolkowski.

Being one of their ‘best stones’ is another squishy term that begs for a definition. Is this a claim being made by the store, by the Craigslist seller, by Cut by Tolkowski, by EGL intrnational, or someone else entirely? It sounds to me like pure sales puffery but you’re taking it to mean something more.

 

[Lula]

‘Tolkowski Ideal’ is a term being used without permission of the Tolkowski family and, as far as I can tell, is not clearly defined even at that. It’s claimed on the EGLI documents to be near the spes given by Marcel Tolkowski in his book Diamond Design. ‘Near’ is the problem.

I’m reminded of a dealer I met a few decades ago who was selling quartz crystals at a gem show that had been ‘charged by the great pyramid’ along with a lovely photo of the pyramids in Egypt. Huh? Being a bit dogged, I pursued it with him. What the heck is that? I’m not big on some of the new age weirdness but what is a ‘charge’ as it relates to a crystal? How do you add a charge using a pyramid? How can you tell if the charge worked? Is the charge better or worse depending on what pyramid is used? Does it need to be recharged periodically? Can the consumer do this or does it need to be sent back periodically, presumably with a fee? Naturally these are all matters of faith and my lack of faith seemed to be the problem but, in the end, it was agreed that this phrase means roughly the same thing as ‘shared a planet’. Ok then. So what does Tolkowski Ideal mean? I still don’t know (and yes, I’ve asked). This too seems to require some faith. One thing I‘m confident of is that it has nothing whatever to do with Cut by Tolkowski.

Being one of their ‘best stones’ is another squishy term that begs for a definition. Is this a claim being made by the store, by the Craigslist seller, by Cut by Tolkowski, by EGL intrnational, or someone else entirely? It sounds to me like pure sales puffery but you’re taking it to mean something more.

Thank you, Neil. It would be helpful to know if the Tolkowsky family has addressed this issue with EGL (in court or otherwise). I know that it is perfectly legal for retail stores to engage in "salesman's puffery"; however, you've got to wonder when it crosses the line into fraudulent and misleading statements (whether intentional or not).

 

[yssie]

‘Tolkowski Ideal’ is a term being used without permission of the Tolkowski family and, as far as I can tell, is not clearly defined even at that. It’s claimed on the EGLI documents to be near the spes given by Marcel Tolkowski in his book Diamond Design. ‘Near’ is the problem.

I’m reminded of a dealer I met a few decades ago who was selling quartz crystals at a gem show that had been ‘charged by the great pyramid’ along with a lovely photo of the pyramids in Egypt. Huh? Being a bit dogged, I pursued it with him. What the heck is that? I’m not big on some of the new age weirdness but what is a ‘charge’ as it relates to a crystal? How do you add a charge using a pyramid? How can you tell if the charge worked? Is the charge better or worse depending on what pyramid is used? Does it need to be recharged periodically? Can the consumer do this or does it need to be sent back periodically, presumably with a fee? Naturally these are all matters of faith and my lack of faith seemed to be the problem but, in the end, it was agreed that this phrase means roughly the same thing as ‘shared a planet’. Ok then. So what does Tolkowski Ideal mean? I still don’t know (and yes, I’ve asked). This too seems to require some faith. One thing I‘m confident of is that it has nothing whatever to do with Cut by Tolkowski.

We seem to be learning an awful lot about EGL in this thread.. I hit the "contact us", we'll see what happens.

 

[Lula]

‘Tolkowski Ideal’ is a term being used without permission of the Tolkowski family and, as far as I can tell, is not clearly defined even at that. It’s claimed on the EGLI documents to be near the spes given by Marcel Tolkowski in his book Diamond Design. ‘Near’ is the problem.

I’m reminded of a dealer I met a few decades ago who was selling quartz crystals at a gem show that had been ‘charged by the great pyramid’ along with a lovely photo of the pyramids in Egypt. Huh? Being a bit dogged, I pursued it with him. What the heck is that? I’m not big on some of the new age weirdness but what is a ‘charge’ as it relates to a crystal? How do you add a charge using a pyramid? How can you tell if the charge worked? Is the charge better or worse depending on what pyramid is used? Does it need to be recharged periodically? Can the consumer do this or does it need to be sent back periodically, presumably with a fee? Naturally these are all matters of faith and my lack of faith seemed to be the problem but, in the end, it was agreed that this phrase means roughly the same thing as ‘shared a planet’. Ok then. So what does Tolkowski Ideal mean? I still don’t know (and yes, I’ve asked). This too seems to require some faith. One thing I‘m confident of is that it has nothing whatever to do with Cut by Tolkowski.

We seem to be learning an awful lot about EGL in this thread.. I hit the "contact us", we'll see what happens.

You hit the "contact us" button for EGL or for Cut by Tolkowsky? Either way, I'll be interested in what you hear from them!

 

[yssie]

You hit the "contact us" button for EGL or for Cut by Tolkowsky? Either way, I'll be interested in what you hear from them!

*EGL-Int, I don't actually know if EGL-USA also does the TIC notation?

 

[Ballen]

I need some help with the same issue. I am looking at a diamond currently that has a report issued by EGL. It also says "Tolkowsky Ideal Cut" Here are the specs:

Weight: 2.53
Measurements: 8.72 - 8.66 x 5.51 mm

Proportions
Total depth - 63.4%
total width - 57%
crown height - 16%
pavilion depth - 44%
girdle thickness - medium, faceted

Finish
Polish - very good
Symmetry - very good
Culet - none

Clarity grade - VS2
Graining - Ni1
Color grade - H
Fluorescence - none

This was the EGL report.

Thoughts on quality of diamond? Value? Etc. I am a novice and could really use some help.

Thanks.

 

[0-0-0]

Stick to diamonds with GIA/AGS reports if you are looking for quality.

 

[stone-cold11]

No good from the numbers available.

Overall too deep, crown and pavilion depth is also too deep, so the resulting angles are not complimentary.

 

[Ballen]

Thanks for the reply.

Any ideas on where I should look to purchase?