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To good to be true???

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ManNeedsHelp

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Messages
14
Buddy of mine is looking for that elusive ring, gf wants a round solitare...

-He found a "wholesale" guy through a friends grandmother who has a round, SI2, G, very good cut, 2.16 carat stone already in a solitaire setting for 11K.

-I asked him what cert it had and he called back and the guy said its not certified but he is a "GIA gemolgist" and could certify it/appraise it or whatever.

-He has seen it and is happy with way it looks and the size and such.

-Having been through this process not to long ago myself I told him that a GIA official report was a must and that he should ask this guy to get one for the diamond, he could even offer to pay for it, because with insurance and what not its important for that. Am I right here, it is a big deal right?

-Also from what I have seen just quickly browsing at bluenile and couple of other regularly discussed sights on here I havent seen something with those specs that cheap. Am I right there?

-What would you expect to pay for a 2 carat round diamond thats not perfect but is very pleasing to the eye? (I know this is a loaded question, dont think he is interested in symmetry, fluorescence and all that stuff)

Thanks in advance!
 
Well, looking at the diamond search on PS, all the GIA-graded diamonds that are around that price at 2.14 carats are K, L, or M color. Usually the "wholesale" schtick is that they're selling you a misgraded diamond, telling you higher grades than it really is, so that when you look up price comps online it looks like you're getting a great deal.

Anyone can become a graduate gemologist through GIA as long as they take and pass the classes. I am taking the classes right now. That doesn't mean that a diamond graded by me has the same certainty of grading that a diamond with a GIA grading report does. And if I am selling the diamond and trying to make a buck, why would you trust me rather than GIA?
 
ManNeedsHelp|1415838096|3782334 said:
Buddy of mine is looking for that elusive ring, gf wants a round solitare...

-He found a "wholesale" guy through a friends grandmother who has a round, SI2, G, very good cut, 2.16 carat stone already in a solitaire setting for 11K.


Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
RUN!
 
This sounds scary and IS too good to be true without the paperwork proving it isn't. I wouldn't talk to him unless he had it certified through AGS or GIA. :snooty: :snooty: :snooty:
 
No too cheap for a G SI2 over 2 carats. That would be $25000 plus.
 
Thanks for the responses everyone...I have passed on the info and he is going to see if they will certify it or continue to look for a certified diamond.

-What is the essential importance to having it certified? Insurance? why do they care, couldnt an independent appraiser do that?
 
ManNeedsHelp|1416022216|3783890 said:
Thanks for the responses everyone...I have passed on the info and he is going to see if they will certify it or continue to look for a certified diamond.

-What is the essential importance to having it certified? Insurance? why do they care, couldnt an independent appraiser do that?
Click to expand...

Sending it to GIA will give everyone piece of mind. The reason it is such a bargain (generally there are no such things with friend of a friend diamond sellers) is that it has been grossly misgraded colour and clarity wise and the guy knows this, or it has something that strongly negatively impacts it like fluorescence that can make the stone look milky and dull in certain lighting, internal graining which can also impact on the fire and sparkle of the stone and a heap of other things that the buyer will be unaware of.

One of the biggest scams of all is that the stone COULD be clarity enhanced/fracture filled, HPHT (high pressure, high temperature) and the smuck selling it is not telling your buddy. These stones seem like a too good to be true bargain and it fits with what you are saying.....

There is a list of reliable appraisers in the drop down tab above if you tell us the area the seller is in perhaps people might be able to suggest ones for you. Having said that for a few hundred bucks, sending the stone to GIA will give not only piece of mind but also add to the resale value of the stone.
 
You guys are grown up. Just cause the price is low doesn't mean that you're getting a good deal. You get what you pay for. Get it GIA certified, have a trusted independent appraiser look at it, compare it to other stones then he can decide if it is a good deal.

Just want to say that it seems a shame to try to rush the process of spending $11k (a lot of money) on something that is a symbol of his lifetime union with his fiancé. He is lucky he has you to help him do the due diligence that really he should be doing. You're a good friend. Good luck to him.
 
LLJsmom|1416035293|3783961 said:
You guys are grown up. Just cause the price is low doesn't mean that you're getting a good deal. You get what you pay for. Get it GIA certified, have a trusted independent appraiser look at it, compare it to other stones then he can decide if it is a good deal.

Just want to say that it seems a shame to try to rush the process of spending $11k (a lot of money) on something that is a symbol of his lifetime union with his fiancé. He is lucky he has you to help him do the due diligence that really he should be doing. You're a good friend. Good luck to him.
Click to expand...

I was preparing a long post on how the cheapest G-SI2 2 ct plus in the US on the Rap Data base is $12,161 (with a GIA "good" cut, which we all know, stinks) at dealer cost and blah, blah, blah. However I read LLJsmom's post and think she said it better. You are a good friend, so kick this guy in the behind and RUN away from the purported wholesaler and find someone honest to deal with.

Wink
 
I can imagine that it will be hard for your buddy to walk away from this "deal", but you may of saved him thousands of dollars in doing so.
 
Again, really do appreciate all the advice. I just know that when I was going through this process about 2 and half years ago I was so lost at first hahaha, I told him whenever he decided to do this to call me! Was talking to him last night about it and he said some of his friends have bought from same guy with no certification and then got it appraised for twice the value from him and I was explainging how now they are paying huge premiums on something not worth probably half of that! :((

I will keep everyone updated, the good thing is I think he has been able to not get over emotional with it and is going to keep looking around and see about that guy sending it to get GIA cert....anyone have any experience with jewlers/appraisers in Memphis or Nashville TN? I bought mine online but I dont think he is wanting to go that route without seeing it.
 
ManNeedsHelp|1416022216|3783890 said:
Thanks for the responses everyone...I have passed on the info and he is going to see if they will certify it or continue to look for a certified diamond.

-What is the essential importance to having it certified? Insurance? why do they care, couldnt an independent appraiser do that?
Click to expand...

The GIA or AGS report is essential for knowing what it is he is buying. He or his fiancee do not want a nasty surprise in terms of how the diamond looks versus how they expected it to appear - particularly if he is dropping $11k on it! In a transaction where even one difference in one grading factor (which sometimes you can't even see) can impact value by thousands of dollars, it is important to have a report from a reliable source to know whether it is a good deal.

As many others have pointed out in this thread, there is no way that a diamond (even without the setting) that truly had those specs would cost that little. Something is wrong. Without a GIA or AGS report, who knows what that diamond truly is.

Even if your friend hired a competent appraiser himself to look at the diamond, it will be impossible to get an exact read on this stone because it is already set. (I'm sure an appraiser could assess that the diamond is not as represented, but could not get to an exact measure of color, clarity, etc. which would determine precise value.) If it was truly was what the seller said it is, they would remove the diamond from the setting, get a report from GIA or AGS, and sell it for much more money. So why waste time and money on an appraiser here when we all know this diamond is not what the seller says it is?
 
Just one other thing: It sounds like your friend is pushing to get a GIA cert on this diamond. I hope he understands that the point of having the lab report is to get an independent confirmation that the specs are as stated, rather than just to get a report. If (and when) it comes back as L I2 or what have you, it will be proof that it is not what he originally was looking for. (Or, if he went to a good independent appraiser, they could determine the stone is not what the seller says it is.). And then he will be back to square one.

Better and easier to start the search by looking for diamonds that already have the GIA or AGS cert showing the specs that he is looking for.
 
Wednesday|1416069739|3784147 said:
Just one other thing: It sounds like your friend is pushing to get a GIA cert on this diamond. I hope he understands that the point of having the lab report is to get an independent confirmation that the specs are as stated, rather than just to get a report. If (and when) it comes back as L I2 or what have you, it will be proof that it is not what he originally was looking for. (Or, if he went to a good independent appraiser, they could determine the stone is not what the seller says it is.). And then he will be back to square one.

Better and easier to start the search by looking for diamonds that already have the GIA or AGS cert showing the specs that he is looking for.
Click to expand...


I see what you mean and I agree, I will pass that along
 
ManNeedsHelp|1416159121|3784690 said:
Thoughts on this diamond?

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.01-carat-h-color-si2-clarity-very-good-cut-sku-41788
Click to expand...

This diamond looks a little small for its carat weight. This is likely due to it only being a "very good" cut. I also can see at least one of the inclusions, which might be able to be hidden by a prong but I'm not sure. Many SI2s will not be eye clean.

For the best-looking diamond, you want to start looking for GIA Excellent cut or AGS 0 (Ideal) cut at a minimum. "Very good" is usually not good.

I'm not the best at shopping, but there are many here who can find great diamonds at the best prices. With that in mind, look at this one, which is an AGS Ideal cut: http://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.87-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-293822 Although a lower carat weight, it has almost the same diameter as the diamond you posted. (I'm not suggesting this for purchase necessarily as the high clarity might be overkill and I don't know the budget here.)
 
I was wondering if very good cut isnt the best. I think his budget is probably maxing out around 16 and frankly more than he anticipated spending. However, he may just have to either increase budget or compromise on something.

If he wants to stay close to 2 carats, where would yall recommend cutting back on to help him stay closer to budget(I know thats not an ideal way to look at things but if size is important, which he feels it is, what is least important to you with regards to cut, clarity, and color?
 
ManNeedsHelp|1416068895|3784139 said:
Again, really do appreciate all the advice. I just know that when I was going through this process about 2 and half years ago I was so lost at first hahaha, I told him whenever he decided to do this to call me! Was talking to him last night about it and he said some of his friends have bought from same guy with no certification and then got it appraised for twice the value from him and I was explainging how now they are paying huge premiums on something not worth probably half of that! :((

I will keep everyone updated, the good thing is I think he has been able to not get over emotional with it and is going to keep looking around and see about that guy sending it to get GIA cert....anyone have any experience with jewlers/appraisers in Memphis or Nashville TN? I bought mine online but I dont think he is wanting to go that route without seeing it.
Click to expand...

Many, if not all, of the top internet vendors offer inspection periods so that he can see the diamond and make up his mind about whether or not he likes it prior to committing to keep the diamond. He is NOT going to get the pricing in most B&M stores that he can get on the Internet, and that is currently just a fact of life.

He can work with it and save, or not and pay more. The choice is his, but he definitely needs to study up or he WILL get hosed as he nearly did with the stone he was getting ready to buy from the "wholesaler" who wasn't really.

Just my thoughts of course...

Wink
 
ManNeedsHelp|1416161750|3784711 said:
I was wondering if very good cut isnt the best. I think his budget is probably maxing out around 16 and frankly more than he anticipated spending. However, he may just have to either increase budget or compromise on something.

If he wants to stay close to 2 carats, where would yall recommend cutting back on to help him stay closer to budget(I know thats not an ideal way to look at things but if size is important, which he feels it is, what is least important to you with regards to cut, clarity, and color?
Click to expand...

"Very good cut" is NOT the best cut. The thing that is most noticeable to most people would be sparkle, brilliance, fire which is essentially the cut. So don't compromise on that. Color is very much a matter of preference. I have seen many buyers compromise on clarity. If it's eye-clean, then they are good to go. It depends on the person, but it's what I have frequently noticed. They figure if they can't see the inclusion, given they have a budget then why pay more for higher clarity.

Just some of the vendors that PSers have had great experiences with:

Brian Gavin Diamonds
Whiteflash
High Performance Diamonds

These are the vendors that stick out in my mind. Other PSers will have other suggestions too. On these sites, it's quite easy to choose stones that are well cut. And even easier is to actually call these vendors and tell them what he's looking for, and let the vendor do the work. Tell them budget, and what he wants. Top cut, color range from blah to blah, can you see the inclusion, do you care?

He has to do something. He knows what the lady likes, or does not like. Or at least what he likes!!

If he cares about size, then just focus on spending the bulk of his budget on the stone. Get a simple and economical setting. They can always splurge and reset at a later date.
 
Niel|1416174489|3784796 said:
has anyone posted this?

A J is the average color for engagement rings in the US.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.00-carat-j-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-327920

or if hes concerned about color

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.00-carat-i-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-368100
Click to expand...

Although GIA Excellent, these face up very small! I wonder why? Is there a typo in the carat weight or are these the dreaded "steep deeps"?
 
Wednesday|1416175055|3784802 said:
Niel|1416174489|3784796 said:
has anyone posted this?

A J is the average color for engagement rings in the US.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.00-carat-j-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-327920

or if hes concerned about color

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.00-carat-i-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-368100
Click to expand...

Although GIA Excellent, these face up very small! I wonder why? Is there a typo in the carat weight or are these the dreaded "steep deeps"?
Click to expand...


whilst looking at second hand settings for the posters friend, I checked the certs...they are 1.5 cts!

typos indeed
 
ManNeedsHelp|1416175726|3784809 said:
I got excited for a second!! haha He is planning on just doing a solitaire to max out his budget so that is good!

Question, why the big price difference between these two? They seem to be super similar from a spec standpoint...

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.00-carat-j-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-348294

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD05049902
Click to expand...


the color and clarity are similar, but I wouldn't say the numbers are similar. Also, blue nile can be cheaper because they don't offer you as much as JA does.

What is his budget? I see you posting stones as much as 16k.


is he open to fancy shapes?
 
ManNeedsHelp|1416161750|3784711 said:
I was wondering if very good cut isnt the best. I think his budget is probably maxing out around 16 and frankly more than he anticipated spending. However, he may just have to either increase budget or compromise on something.

If he wants to stay close to 2 carats, where would yall recommend cutting back on to help him stay closer to budget(I know thats not an ideal way to look at things but if size is important, which he feels it is, what is least important to you with regards to cut, clarity, and color?
Click to expand...

That's still a great budget. As suggested above, since he's looking to get the biggest diamond possible, he should focus the budget there and get a simple setting for now.

I would never compromise cut for two reasons: 1) You could end up with a diamond that faces up smaller than it should, which defeats the purpose of getting a big diamond. 2) Great cut will give the diamond brightness from edge to edge, which will make it look bigger than a dull or dark diamond.

Color is a matter of preference. Lots of people look to G and H color to get a near-colorless diamond that looks untinted but doesn't cost as much as colorless (D/E/F). Some go to I, which also faces up pretty white. Some go to J, although some caution this is the point where tint may seem more obvious.

As for inclusions, most people try to get an eye clean diamond (although some don't mind some visible inclusions). VS1 and above almost guarantees inclusions will not be visible to the naked eye. VS2 is usually eyeclean but not always, so always good to ask and/or inspect. SI1 eyeclean can be a great deal, but you definitely have to ask and/or inspect to ensure eyecleanliness. SI2 is less likely to be eyeclean.

So...maybe an Ideal or Excellent cut I eyeclean SI1? I have one from Brian Gavin - an AGS 0/Ideal - and it is gorgeous.

Also, I'd stay a little under the 2 carat mark to get the 2 carat look without paying the extra markup at the 2 carat point.

Another factor that can cut price without changing the look (and can sometimes help lower colors in certain lighting conditions) is fluorescence. You need to make sure the fluorescence doesn't negatively impact the appearance of the stone, but often it is fine. Another thing to ask about.
 
Niel|1416176332|3784815 said:
ManNeedsHelp|1416175726|3784809 said:
I got excited for a second!! haha He is planning on just doing a solitaire to max out his budget so that is good!

Question, why the big price difference between these two? They seem to be super similar from a spec standpoint...

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.00-carat-j-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-348294

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD05049902
Click to expand...


the color and clarity are similar, but I wouldn't say the numbers are similar. Also, blue nile can be cheaper because they don't offer you as much as JA does.

What is his budget? I see you posting stones as much as 16k.


is he open to fancy shapes?
Click to expand...

I think he has decided to set his budget at 13.5K, that would include a setting. Round solitaire, bigger the better, eye clean
 
ManNeedsHelp|1416159121|3784690 said:
Thoughts on this diamond?

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.01-carat-h-color-si2-clarity-very-good-cut-sku-41788
Click to expand...

That diamond may have a slightly hazy and less sparkly appearance in person as the clarity is based on clouds, which you can clearly see in the video.

This one I posted earlier was the best I could find for under 12k that hit the 2 ct mark. Keep in mind that given the price of the diamond through the "wholesaler," it probably has specs like this or lower, so this is comparable to (or better than) what he was just prepared to buy. He was already compromising, but the compromises were made by the vendor on his behalf and he didn't know about them.
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.06-carat-k-color-si1-clarity-very-good-cut-sku-329723
 
this one is a tad too deep, but honestly if her number 1 concern is size id look past that...


http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.90-carat-j-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-298026

he could afford a platinum setting with this stone.

this one is lovely (see the example it has a 2 ct k in it)
http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/platinum-double-prong-solitaire-item-41143

and this tiffany repro

http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/platinum-six-prong-knife-edged-solitaire-engagement-ring-handmade-item-2426
 
At the least, run it through the HCA tool.

https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

JA - 4.5 HCA
BN - 2.8 HCA

Neither is a good option because over 2.0.

And they are SI2's. They may not be eye-clean. Blue Nile will likely not be able to tell you. You can try calling, but their stones are often offsite, at some vault around the globe. JA should be able to tell you but you would have to call them to ask them to look at it personally.

Personally, I would never buy a stone that is not eye-clean. In your friend's case, given it's an e-ring, definitely not. But of course, up to him...
 
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