To be or NOT to be?

[kiett98]

I was in a meeting today and noticed twice, with two different individuals, that both dropped the words "to be" from their sentence.

1. The first time was when manger #1 was asking manager #2 if a position from which an employee was moving need needed to be backfilled. He asked "So will you have a spot that needs filled?"
2. The second time was when manager #2 was referring to a new product that needed to be made and she said "...so and so product that needs made"

My question is, I know that it "sounds wrong" to my ear for them to drop the "to be" from the sentence, but is it grammatically incorrect? If so, why? And also, I am from the south and they are both from the mid-west (Indiana and Ohio), so I didn't know if it is common here (Indianapolis) for the "to be" to be dropped from sentences?

 

[Maria D]

It is grammatically incorrect but I'ma let Haven tell you why!

 

[pandora21524]

I think it's a regional thing. I'm from eastern PA, and I drop the "to be" all the time, but I never realized it (or realized that it was weird) until my college roommates pointed it out.

 

[Sha]

I've never heard anybody speak like that before. Sounds weird to me - I'm pretty sure it's incorrect. Maybe people are trying to save time by dropping words?

 

[Porridge]

Actually now that you mention it I find people from certain areas of the UK do that all the time. Weird one!

 

[Jennifer W]

Interesting! It's technically wrong, but it's pretty common where I live! It's not new, by any stretch.

I had to think long and hard to see what was wrong with it - that's definitely how people in Scotland would say it. A post needs filled, a product needs made. If you wanted to add emphasis, you'd add 'to be' to the sentence. "That needs to be done" would convey more urgency in Scotland that "that needs done" but either might be used.

 

[Amys Bling]

Maybe it's regional? I know people in NJ have different pronunciations and phrasing for things so maybe the "to be" being omitted is dialect-ish?

 

[junebug17]

I've never heard anyone speak that way. It''s grammatically incorrect - I'm not sure of the reason why, but that particular sentence structure requires a prepositional phrase and the sentence is incomplete without it. Verb tense might have something to do with it. If the person said "a spot that needs filling" both verbs are present tense so that would probably be more correct, although it sounds a bit awkward.

 

[blacksand]

Very common in Eastern PA and the Midwest, I believe. Seems to be Scots-Irish in origin.

From Wiki:

"need, want, or like + past participle[2][3] (Murray, Frazer and Simon 1996; Tenny 1998; McElhinny 1999; Murray and Simon 1999; Montgomery 2001; Murray and Simon 2002; Wisnosky 2003; Johnstone, Andrus and Danielson 2006).
Examples: “The car needs washed”; “The cat wants petted”; “Babies like cuddled”.
Further explanation: More common constructions are “Babies like cuddling” or “Babies like to be cuddled”; “”The car needs washing” or “The car needs to be washed”; and “The cat wants petting” or “The cat wants to be petted.”
Geographic distribution: Found predominantly in the North Midland region, but especially in southwestern Pennsylvania (Murray, Frazer and Simon 1996; Murray and Simon 1999; Murray and Simon 2002). Need + past participle is the most common construction, followed by want + past participle, and then like + past participle. The forms are "implicationally related" to one another (Murray and Simon 2002). This means the existence of one construction in a given location entails the existence (or not) of another in that location. Here’s the implicational breakdown: where we find like + past participle, we will also necessarily find want and need + past participle; where we find want + past participle, we will also find need + past participle, but we may or may not find like + past participle; where we find need + past participle, we may or may not find want + past participle and like + past participle. Put another way, the existence of the least common construction implies the necessary existence of the two more common constructions, but the existence of the most common construction does not necessarily entail existence of the two less common constructions.
Origins: like + past participle is Scots-Irish (Murray and Simon 2002). need + past participle is Scots-Irish (Murray, Frazer, and Simon 1996; Murray and Simon 1999; Montgomery 2001; Murray and Simon 2002). While Adams[8] argues that want + past participle could be from Scots-Irish or German, it seems likely that this construction is Scots-Irish, as Murray and Simon (1999 and 2002) claim. like and need + past participle are Scots-Irish, the distributions of all three constructions are implicationally related, the area where they are predominantly found is most heavily influenced by Scots-Irish, and a related construction, want + directional adverb, as in “The cat wants out,” is Scots-Irish"

 

[partgypsy]

LOL the first thing I thought of was Game of Thrones were people are always saying things like "must needs"...

 

[kiett98]

Interesting... Thanks for the wiki link, Blacksand.

I will definitely be listening more closely, now.

 

[QueenB29]

I was in a meeting today and noticed twice, with two different individuals, that both dropped the words "to be" from their sentence.

1. The first time was when manger #1 was asking manager #2 if a position from which an employee was moving need needed to be backfilled. He asked "So will you have a spot that needs filled?"
2. The second time was when manager #2 was referring to a new product that needed to be made and she said "...so and so product that needs made"

My question is, I know that it "sounds wrong" to my ear for them to drop the "to be" from the sentence, but is it grammatically incorrect? If so, why? And also, I am from the south and they are both from the mid-west (Indiana and Ohio), so I didn't know if it is common here (Indianapolis) for the "to be" to be dropped from sentences?

It's totally, 100% wrong You are right: both sentences need the verb to be, or need to be restructured so it they make sense without it. I.e. "So will you need to fill a spot?"

My two biggest pet peeves (about half my job is copy editing) are when people use "that" when the sentence calls for "who" and when someone says 25 cent Oh, and double negatives would also rank up there on my list!

 

[pandora21524]

I just remembered this Boston globe article on the subject from a few years ago, it's interesting: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2007/11/11/lawn_needs_cut/

 

[monarch64]

It's incorrect. I'm from southern Indiana and I hear people from here drop the "to be" regularly. People say all kinds of things here that would not be acceptable anywhere else.

 

[KaeKae]

Oh, my. I have not heard this, but it would drive me crazy! It almost sounds like a trend coming out of Hollywood. Could they be imitating a movie or performer? I acknowledge that spoken language is more casual than written language, but it hurts my ears! (or would, if I heard it )

 

[packrat]

LOL the first thing I thought of was Game of Thrones were people are always saying things like "must needs"...

Sometimes I say "needs must I".

We drop the "to be" sometimes..but you know..we live in Iowa and I don't so much think we talk properly most times.

We say "show me what needs doing and I'll do it" or variations, like if we go to someone's house for supper, to help getting ready.

 

[HollyS]

I was in a meeting today and noticed twice, with two different individuals, that both dropped the words "to be" from their sentence.

1. The first time was when manger #1 was asking manager #2 if a position from which an employee was moving need needed to be backfilled. He asked "So will you have a spot that needs filled?"
2. The second time was when manager #2 was referring to a new product that needed to be made and she said "...so and so product that needs made"

My question is, I know that it "sounds wrong" to my ear for them to drop the "to be" from the sentence, but is it grammatically incorrect? If so, why? And also, I am from the south and they are both from the mid-west (Indiana and Ohio), so I didn't know if it is common here (Indianapolis) for the "to be" to be dropped from sentences?

It is wrong, it is lazy. We know what they mean, but talking in shorthand is still not grammatically correct and never will be. It's not extremely important, but could be detrimental to a business deal, or to the reputation of the individual using bad grammar.

 

[zoebartlett]

I've never heard that before. It sounds odd to me.

I don't understand the point of dropping words. One example I have heard is when people say something like, "Can I come with?" I'm sorry, what? Do you mean to ask if you can come with me? I don't hear it often here in the northeast, but it drives me nuts.

Oh, the other one I've heard before is when people talk about prom instead of the prom. "Are you going to prom?" instead of "Are you going to the prom?"

 

[missy]

Wow, I never heard of this trend...dropping words.
I agree, it is very lazy and just not right! First the texting craze where people purposefully misspell words and now this. What is this world coming to LOL. I do not like this, not one bit. Lazy, sloppy and just plain wrong! We are quickly becoming a nation of illiterates

 

[JewelFreak]

One example I have heard is when people say something like, "Can I come with?" I'm sorry, what? Do you mean to ask if you can come with me? I don't hear it often here in the northeast, but it drives me nuts.

I heard this one often around the NYC area, in Conn. & Westchester County. All the time, drives me outta my mind too.

"Needs fixed" is a colloquialism I haven't heard in the U.S. but notice often in British tv shows, etc. Didn't hear it much when I used to spend a lot of time in the UK, though.

A new one to me, hear it all the time lately, is "over top" instead of "over the top of:" "New shingles go over top your sub-roof." Ack, I hate that!

Always using "graduate" as a transitive verb makes me want to scream. "When I graduated college." You graduate FROM college; a transitive verb indicates you have taken an action on the object -- in this case, all you do is leave the joint; you don't change it.

 

[Karl_K]

Oh, the other one I've heard before is when people talk about prom instead of the prom. "Are you going to prom?" instead of "Are you going to the prom?"

Around these here parts, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't say "Are you going to prom?"

 

[Maria D]

"To prom" or "to the prom" is a regional thing. Where I grew up in Massachusetts we went to the prom but here in Maine, only about 100 miles north, they go to prom. I was surprised when I lived in Toronto that they would say someone was "in hospital" instead of "in the hospital." It sounded so wrong to me until I realized that I would say the incarcerated are "in prison" not "in the prison." The general rule then seems to be that if you are referring to an institution, drop the "the."

I had never heard "come with" until I started watching Entourage -- but those characters were all supposed to be from Queens, so it makes sense I guess!

 

[NOYFB]

I think it's a regional thing. I grew up in Ohio and never realized that I dropped the "to be" until my husband pointed it out one day when I said that something "needs cleaned". I have also never heard about anyone "going to the prom", it's always been "going to prom". I live in Chicago now and it took me a long time to get used to the phrase "Do you want to come with?" I was always asking "with who?" LOL