Thoughts on cut and price for a pre-owned emerald cut?

[Lula]

I found this on the secondary market. It faces up smaller than many one-carat emerald-cut diamonds. But it's a nice-looking stone. What is a fair price to offer the seller? The seller is asking @ 3 grand, and that includes a platinum setting with some small meh-looking side stones that I do not want. I'd like to give the seller an offer for the diamond unset (not sure if the seller will go for that, but I can ask!).

https://myapps.gia.edu/ReportCheckPortal/getReportData.do?&reportno=11562772&weight=1.01

 

[kelpie]

Despite being so deep it sounds like it could be really interesting with that little table...like the antique cuts. I'm no help on price, I'd use the search engine to look for comps and decide what percent of retail you're willing to pay. If it helps, I just paid 61% of Internet retail for a used GIA EC.

 

[Lula]

Despite being so deep it sounds like it could be really interesting with that little table...like the antique cuts. I'm no help on price, I'd use the search engine to look for comps and decide what percent of retail you're willing to pay. If it helps, I just paid 61% of Internet retail for a used GIA EC.

Hi, kelpie -- thanks for your feedback. Yes, it has an antique-look to it, which is what I'm looking for. I'm assembling the "parts" for a future Art Deco style RH ring. Yes, it helps a lot to know that you paid 61% of internet retail for a pre-owned GIA EC. I've looked at comps for EC diamonds using the length and width dimensions, which put this stone closer to a .90 carat. I don't want to pay the premium for a one carat stone. I'm not sure if the seller will go for this logic. But at least I'll be providing a rationale for my offer!

 

[purplesilk]

I' m not a diamond expert, but I'd skip a diamond with an extremely thin girdle...

 

[Lula]

I' m not a diamond expert, but I'd skip a diamond with an extremely thin girdle...

Yes, that's a concern. I'm hoping the extremely thin part is only a small part of the girdle. Hard to know without closer inspection of the diamond out of the setting. The other thing that I'm unsure about is the "fair" symmetry. I'm not sure how that affects the price or the optics. I'm a complete newbie when it comes to fancy cuts.

 

[Lula]

Okay, so here's a comparable that demonstrates my dilemma about what to offer:
http://www.eternitydiamonds.com/diamond_detail.php?id=629244&ref=pricescope
The linked stone is cut deep, but it has a large table, not a small table, which is definitely not what I want. But the dimensions are similar to the EC I'm considering. And it's a carat and priced accordingly for size, color, and clarity. Using kelpie's 61% formula, the price I'd offer would be @ $2100. But the color grade of the linked stone is one grade higher than the EC I'm considering.

My dilemma is, diamonds are sold by weight, not face-up size. So I guess I'm kind of stuck using 1 carat deep diamonds as comparables. Grumble, grumble.

 

[Karl_K]

You knew I was going to ask for pics right?
An ec this deep would have a very large discount on the wholesale price.
Even more so than the flat tops.
Pulling a number out out of my hat I would say a better cut .85 is a better comp.

 

[Lula]

You knew I was going to ask for pics right?
An ec this deep would have a very large discount on the wholesale price.
Even more so than the flat tops.
Pulling a number out out of my hat I would say a better cut .85 is a better comp.

Yup, I knew the pictures request was coming. I e-mailed the seller asking for more photos. This is the only decent photo I've got now -- the rest are blurry. But you can see the small table and the nice-looking steps -- well, they look nice to me! But I'm curious what the stone looks like straight-on. Interesting that there's such a large penalty for the depth. I'll see what I can find in the .85 range for a comp. But is the discount for extra depth a discount figured into the price by sellers based on Rap or is this a discount that a buyer would have to ask for? Because in my experience secondary market sellers look at weight, color and clarity. Cut is a by-product

ETA: Here's an EGL H color .80, for @ $1500. http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-2465010...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Lula,
Without a doubt I'd also love to see what the stone looks like- the stats are interesting, for sure.
In terms of price, I'd be very aggressive in offering low.
In real life the two most questionable aspects- that being the depth and "Fair" symmetry may not be big negatives for the appearance ( although the face up will be small)- but they'll have a HUGE impact on the value in a sale.

I terms of the girdle remember that an emerald cut actually has 8 separate girdles- so large variation from thickest to thinnest parts may not necessarily be an issue. Same for the part that's ex Thin- might be no problem at all. Or it might- that's one aspect I'd like to example closely in person to make any sort of judgement.

 

[Karl_K]

But is the discount for extra depth a discount figured into the price by sellers based on Rap or is this a discount that a buyer would have to ask for? Because in my experience secondary market sellers look at weight, color and clarity. Cut is a by-product

Wholesale diamonds are sold compared to RAP, RAP + x%, RAP - x%.
One of this depth would have a large -x% number, the fair grade would also contribute to it.
RAP - 40+% is not that unusual.

 

[Lula]

Thank you, David and Karl, for your comments on the girdle and the symmetry and RAP pricing. I found this https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-prices/emerald which gives me some price ranges to work from to craft an offer.

I'm waiting to hear from the seller on more photos. I'll post them when I get them.

Some other considerations:

The setting. Yuk. Hate it. It's the wrong size and so bulky. But what are the chances of the seller selling the stone alone? Anybody had any experience in that regard?

On the other hand, given the thin girdle, do I really want the seller to be messing around with removing the stone from the setting? If not, how do I just offer the seller the price I'd pay for the stone alone, or do I offer a little more (melt value) for the setting?

This is being sold as a final sale; no returns. Another issue that will need to be negotiated or factored into the price.

 

[Rockdiamond]

With the price of scrap metal today, just leave the setting in the deal. Then you can have someone you trust remove the stone, scrap the setting to further reduce your cost.
BUT- and this is a big but- the prongs might be hiding something that will impact the price.
Add the fact it's a final sale, and I'd lower my offer even further.
You're taking a risk Lulu- and it might really pay off- but the fact that the risk is there needs to affect the price.

In my mind Rap pricing has very little to do with this type of purchase. You need to buy it cheap

 

[Lula]

With the price of scrap metal today, just leave the setting in the deal. Then you can have someone you trust remove the stone, scrap the setting to further reduce your cost.
BUT- and this is a big but- the prongs might be hiding something that will impact the price.
Add the fact it's a final sale, and I'd lower my offer even further.
You're taking a risk Lulu- and it might really pay off- but the fact that the risk is there needs to affect the price.

In my mind Rap pricing has very little to do with this type of purchase. You need to buy it cheap

Thanks, David. This is great information. The GIA report is dated 2001. That's a long time ago. Enough time for the diamond to be dinged up, chipped, etc., in its setting. And after thinking about it, I'd much rather have a vendor I trust remove the stone. I'm going to make a very low offer based on the following:

Old GIA report - no idea if stone is still in VS1 condition
I color grade
Depth of diamond
Fluorescence (not sure if medium warrants much of a price reduction)
Setting is wrong size, not to my taste
Setting may be hiding damage to diamond
No returns

I'm not sure I'm willing to buy it at any price without a return period. But I've looked at a lot of emerald cuts over the past several years and never seen one quite like this -- a very small table, and a culet, too, be still my heart! -- so my curiosity may get the better of me.

ETA: If this diamond has cruddy p3 angles, there's certainly plenty of depth available for a recut of the pavilion, right? Assuming I could find someone who'd be willing to recut an emerald-cut diamond.

 

[Rockdiamond]

First off- sorry I called you lulu Lula.

In terms of buying a stone with the intention of re-cutting- not all that straightforward. Especially with an emerald cut.

 

[Karl_K]

ETA: If this diamond has cruddy p3 angles, there's certainly plenty of depth available for a recut of the pavilion, right? Assuming I could find someone who'd be willing to recut an emerald-cut diamond.

Finding a cutter isn't a problem however......
buying a stone for a re-cut without having it evaluated for a re-cut is always a bad idea.
That must be done in person by someone who is experienced with the cut and cutting.

 

[Lula]

Thanks, David and Karl, for your advice on recutting. It's clear that if I am able to buy this stone for the amount I am willing to offer, that I also need to build in some sort of appraisal/return policy agreement. The seller has responded that he/she will sell the stone alone for $2500, which he/she called a "great price." Not so much in my view. But at least it sounds like he/she is open to negotiation. I told the seller that if we can come to agreement on price, I'd be willing to buy both the diamond and the setting. I asked for more photos. Still waiting on that. I'll keep you updated, and thanks again for your advice!

And, David, no worries on the "Lulu" and "Lula" mix-up. There are at least three "lulus" on PS, so the mixups are inevitable. I am incredibly bad at choosing screen names!

 

[Rockdiamond]

My take?
$1700 for both or walk away. You can always "reconsider" and go up a little bit.
You also might need to be patient and wait a little bit.....
The seller is not in an easy position. They need to feel that themselves, then they'll probably be more interested in your offer.
Or, as WC Fields said- there's a sucker born every minute, and some poor shmoe who's never heard about PS may just step in a make a bad purchase

 

[Lula]

My take?
$1700 for both or walk away. You can always "reconsider" and go up a little bit.
You also might need to be patient and wait a little bit.....
The seller is not in an easy position. They need to feel that themselves, then they'll probably be more interested in your offer.
Or, as WC Fields said- there's a sucker born every minute, and some poor shmoe who's never heard about PS may just step in a make a bad purchase

Yes, I think the seller is hoping for a poor shmoe! I've been looking for a decent emerald cut since 2009, so I'm definitely willing to be patient. Your suggestion of $1700 is close to what I was thinking of offering the seller. I just want to protect myself in the event the diamond is damaged and no longer a VS1, so I do want to build in some sort of return period along with my offer. Thanks, David!

 

[denverappraiser]

Around here, dealer bids (pawn shops, scrap dealers, and the like) would be something like 1500-1700 or so. Possibly less. That's WITH a personal inspection where they take the stone out and look for damage. The 'extremely thin girdle' is a significant risk factor. I would refuse the deal at any price if it's not possible to inspect it, and I would assume it's chipped and needs a recut if they won't allow an inspection out of the setting. That means buy it as a 0.9x I/VS1 minus the cost of recutting, recerting, shipping and some headache. I guarantee they won't like this option better unless they full well know it's chipped already.

I fairly regularly get involved in this sort of deal and most other appraisers with an office offer something similar. The buyer and seller show up together and are both present the entire inspection. The SELLER pays me to take the stone out and assumes all risks associated with that and the BUYER pays for grading and valuation opinion. They can make a deal or not as they wish, I get paid either way. This deal does not come with an offer to reset the stone if the sale doesn't happen for whatever reason but the seller now has an unmounted stone that'll probably be easier to sell to the next person and/or get whatever repairs are required to maximize their sale.

I second the comment that buying for recut is not for amateurs. Costs are noticable and risks of it coming out different from what you expected are significant. Let the seller deal with it unless the price is so low you just can't resist.

I also second the comment that this is likely to be a difficult item to retail. There may indeed be a $3000+ buyer out there, but they won't be easy to find without a fair amount of luck.

 

[Lula]

Around here, dealer bids (pawn shops, scrap dealers, and the like) would be something like 1500-1700 or so. Possibly less. That's WITH a personal inspection where they take the stone out and look for damage. The 'extremely thin girdle' is a significant risk factor. I would refuse the deal at any price if it's not possible to inspect it, and I would assume it's chipped and needs a recut if they won't allow an inspection out of the setting. That means buy it as a 0.9x I/VS1 minus the cost of recutting, recerting, shipping and some headache. I guarantee they won't like this option better unless they full well know it's chipped already.

I fairly regularly get involved in this sort of deal and most other appraisers with an office offer something similar. The buyer and seller show up together and are both present the entire inspection. The SELLER pays me to take the stone out and assumes all risks associated with that and the BUYER pays for grading and valuation opinion. They can make a deal or not as they wish, I get paid either way. This deal does not come with an offer to reset the stone if the sale doesn't happen for whatever reason but the seller now has an unmounted stone that'll probably be easier to sell to the next person and/or get whatever repairs are required to maximize their sale.

I second the comment that buying for recut is not for amateurs. Costs are noticable and risks of it coming out different from what you expected are significant. Let the seller deal with it unless the price is so low you just can't resist.

I also second the comment that this is likely to be a difficult item to retail. There may indeed be a $3000+ buyer out there, but they won't be easy to find without a fair amount of luck.

Thanks, Neil. Excellent suggestions. And not just useful for me in my negotiations, but for anyone thinking of buying something on the secondary market.

Just to update this thread: On Tuesday, the seller offered to sell me the diamond alone for $2500. I responded by saying that I needed to see more photos of the ring, and I asked some questions about the condition of the diamond and the ring. The seller agreed to my request for more photos. But, as of today, I've not heard back from the seller, and not received any more photos or any answers to my questions. The ring is still for sale. Not encouraging .I'm going to keep my eye on it, and if it doesn't sell in a week or two, I'll make the seller an offer of $1500 contingent upon inspection out of the setting by an appraiser. I won't buy it with the intention of recutting it; it's got to look good out of the gate and it's got to be a good price.

 

[distracts]

Just to update this thread: On Tuesday, the seller offered to sell me the diamond alone for $2500. I responded by saying that I needed to see more photos of the ring, and I asked some questions about the condition of the diamond and the ring. The seller agreed to my request for more photos. But, as of today, I've not heard back from the seller, and not received any more photos or any answers to my questions. The ring is still for sale. Not encouraging .I'm going to keep my eye on it, and if it doesn't sell in a week or two, I'll make the seller an offer of $1500 contingent upon inspection out of the setting by an appraiser. I won't buy it with the intention of recutting it; it's got to look good out of the gate and it's got to be a good price.

Isn't it frustrating to see things you want not sell when you feel you had a reasonable offer?? Hope it works out for you - from the one picture, that was a really pretty diamond!

 

[Rockdiamond]

It's also important to remember the seller's perspective- maybe they're getting a lot of interest.
The internet is a double edged sword in that way.
I used to be able to buy amazing guitars from Pawn shops. A guy in Greenville South Carolina will not pay near the same price as a buyer on NYC...which limited local stores- but not since eBay gained prominence. Now the guy in SC can sell to the guy in NYC no problem

Bottom line is that the "sucker" referred to above may have given the seller an inkling that they'll get that higher price.
I hope not for Lula's sake- but I honestly believe that the knowledge Lula has is a big stumbling block for this seller.

We're probably asking too many questions for the seller's comfort- and good ones at that!

 

[Lula]

Thank you, distracts, I thought it was pretty, too. And, yes, David, the seller may be receiving other inquiries, and be waiting for a shmoe willing to pay full price. But I got time. I can wait.

Something else that bugs me -- the seller's failure to respond to my questions about the ring's condition makes me wonder if there are indeed problems with the condition of the ring. There were only three photos, two of the three were blurry. Once I started asking about the condition of the ring and chips to the girdle -- crickets from the seller.

Without a look at the stone head-on, I can't tell if this diamond has a big dark area in the center. With no return period, I'm passing on it for now.