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The Third Debate: What to Expect from Bush

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AGBF

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Here is what Paul Krugman says we should expect to hear from President Bush and why it is unethical for journalists not to point out the truth to the public. From, "The New York Times".

Checking the Facts, in Advance
By PAUL KRUGMAN

It''s not hard to predict what President Bush, who sounds increasingly desperate, will say tomorrow. Here are eight lies or distortions you''ll hear, and the truth about each:

Jobs

Mr. Bush will talk about the 1.7 million jobs created since the summer of 2003, and will say that the economy is "strong and getting stronger." That''s like boasting about getting a D on your final exam, when you flunked the midterm and needed at least a C to pass the course.

Mr. Bush is the first president since Herbert Hoover to preside over a decline in payroll employment. That''s worse than it sounds because the economy needs around 1.6 million new jobs each year just to keep up with population growth. The past year''s job gains, while better news than earlier job losses, barely met this requirement, and they did little to close the huge gap between the number of jobs the country needs and the number actually available.

Unemployment

Mr. Bush will boast about the decline in the unemployment rate from its June 2003 peak. But the employed fraction of the population didn''t rise at all; unemployment declined only because some of those without jobs stopped actively looking for work, and therefore dropped out of the unemployment statistics. The labor force participation rate - the fraction of the population either working or actively looking for work - has fallen sharply under Mr. Bush; if it had stayed at its January 2001 level, the official unemployment rate would be 7.4 percent.

The deficit

Mr. Bush will claim that the recession and 9/11 caused record budget deficits. Congressional Budget Office estimates show that tax cuts caused about two-thirds of the 2004 deficit.

The tax cuts

Mr. Bush will claim that Senator John Kerry opposed "middle class" tax cuts. But budget office numbers show that most of Mr. Bush''s tax cuts went to the best-off 10 percent of families, and more than a third went to the top 1 percent, whose average income is more than $1 million.

The Kerry tax plan

Mr. Bush will claim, once again, that Mr. Kerry plans to raise taxes on many small businesses. In fact, only a tiny percentage would be affected. Moreover, as Mr. Kerry correctly pointed out last week, the administration''s definition of a small-business owner is so broad that in 2001 it included Mr. Bush, who does indeed have a stake in a timber company - a business he''s so little involved with that he apparently forgot about it.

Fiscal responsibility

Mr. Bush will claim that Mr. Kerry proposes $2 trillion in new spending. That''s a partisan number and is much higher than independent estimates. Meanwhile, as The Washington Post pointed out after the Republican convention, the administration''s own numbers show that the cost of the agenda Mr. Bush laid out "is likely to be well in excess of $3 trillion" and "far eclipses that of the Kerry plan."

Spending

On Friday, Mr. Bush claimed that he had increased nondefense discretionary spending by only 1 percent per year. The actual number is 8 percent, even after adjusting for inflation. Mr. Bush seems to have confused his budget promises - which he keeps on breaking - with reality.

Health care

Mr. Bush will claim that Mr. Kerry wants to take medical decisions away from individuals. The Kerry plan would expand Medicaid (which works like Medicare), ensuring that children, in particular, have health insurance. It would protect everyone against catastrophic medical expenses, a particular help to the chronically ill. It would do nothing to restrict patients'' choices.

By singling out Mr. Bush''s lies and misrepresentations, am I saying that Mr. Kerry isn''t equally at fault? Yes.

Mr. Kerry sometimes uses verbal shorthand that offers nitpickers things to complain about. He talks of 1.6 million lost jobs; that''s the private-sector loss, partly offset by increased government employment. But the job record is indeed awful. He talks of the $200 billion cost of the Iraq war; actual spending is only $120 billion so far. But nobody doubts that the war will cost at least another $80 billion. The point is that Mr. Kerry can, at most, be accused of using loose language; the thrust of his statements is correct.

Mr. Bush''s statements, on the other hand, are fundamentally dishonest. He is insisting that black is white, and that failure is success. Journalists who play it safe by spending equal time exposing his lies and parsing Mr. Kerry''s choice of words are betraying their readers.

E-mail: [email protected]

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search | Corrections | RSS | Help |
 

chris-uk04

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On 10/12/2004 4:26:17 PM AGBF wrote:


By singling out Mr. Bush's lies and misrepresentations, am I saying that Mr. Kerry isn't equally at fault? Yes.

Mr. Kerry sometimes uses verbal shorthand that offers nitpickers things to complain about. He talks of 1.6 million lost jobs; that's the private-sector loss, partly offset by increased government employment. But the job record is indeed awful. He talks of the $200 billion cost of the Iraq war; actual spending is only $120 billion so far. But nobody doubts that the war will cost at least another $80 billion. The point is that Mr. Kerry can, at most, be accused of using loose language; the thrust of his statements is correct.

Mr. Bush's statements, on the other hand, are fundamentally dishonest. He is insisting that black is white, and that failure is success. Journalists who play it safe by spending equal time exposing his lies and parsing Mr. Kerry's choice of words are betraying their readers.

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Oh Geez, not more NY Times articles, especially when they are written the former Enron advisor, Paul Krugman.

See, when someone on Krugman's side says something that is false, it's just "verbal shorthand" and those who point it out are "nitpickers." He essentially condones the fake information while claiming the other side, however, is "fundamentally dishonest."
 

AGBF

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On 10/13/2004 4:31:45 AM chris-uk04 wrote:

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Oh Geez, not more NY Times articles, especially when they are written the former Enron advisor, Paul Krugman.


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I know that when "The New York Times" bothers to investigate the truth behind the Bush facade (which it does far too infrequently), it gets uncomfortable for you conservatives. May "The New York Times" continue to keep Bob Herbert on board! The paper is *rarely* as clear as Paul Krugman was here.... Only Bob Herbert *ALWAYS* tells it "like it is"!
 

chris-uk04

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On 10/13/2004 5:47:51 AM AGBF wrote:

<

I know that when 'The New York Times' bothers to investigate the truth behind the Bush facade (which it does far too infrequently), it gets uncomfortable for you conservatives....

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I was annoyed by the way Krugman blew off criticsm of Kerry's fudged numbers as mere "nitpicking," yet attacked Bush's alleged fudged numbers as "fundamentally dishonest." Why such a dicrepancy from such a porportedly objective newspaper?

Generally though I am opposed to posting articles here. If I want to read what Paul Krugman or Maureen Dowd say, I will buy the Times. Similarly, I wouldn't post Ann Coulter commentary. This is because it is interesting to discuss the issues with real people (who are all obviously smart enough to research diamonds before buying) and their insight into the issues instead of just using the forum as a sounding board for professional pundits.
 

strmrdr

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Did they print it on yellow paper?

Its funny how people fall all over themselves to show stuff like this when they agree with it or when its not about the person they support but they sure do howl when the shoe is on the other foot.
swiftboat....
 

AGBF

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I never howl, although I often snarl :).

Your friend,
Deborah
 

fire&ice

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Aside from my feeling - another info-mercial.

Best line "A plan in not a litany of complaints."
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Jennifer5973

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Bush scares me and Kerry is so liberal, it makes me sick.

Great, just great. Gotto go shine up my quarter.
 

AGBF

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I watched the debate on the first channel on which I could find it. That turned out to be C-Span. After the debate the hosts took half an hour of calls from listeners. Far more frightening than Kerry, or even Bush-the-Dumb, was the reaction I saw of the American voters. I feel hopeless right now. Many of the The American people are just not bright enough to pay attention during a debate and understand the issues and the arguments being made. (Of course it might be that ones who watch the debate on television and then call the hosts of television shows are not a typical cross-section. I am clinging to that hope.)

One example of the reaction to the debate was a male listener who called up and said that Kerry had said he was a hunter, but then that he had gone "all wishy washy" on guns.

In reality, the question (which had been posed to the President) was why he didn't advocate a continuation of the ban on assault weapons. After he gave his reply, Senator Kerry gave his. He (Kerry) said that he was a hunter, had been since he was 12, and that he believed in the Second Amendment. He said that law enforcement officials, however, needed the continued ban on assault weapons. He gave an example of a fellow hunter, who happened to be a local sheriff, telling him that during a recent drug raid they found an AK47 on the premises. He mentioned the threat of AK47s in the hand of terrorists, saying that Osama bin Laden had apparently advocated that his followers obtain these at gun shows (when that was possible).

Whether or not one agreed with him, Senator Kerry's position couldn't have been clearer: he did not want to take guns from hunters, but did want to take submachine guns from everyone...including drug dealers and terrorists who could buy them without background checks at gun shows if the assault weapons ban were allowed to lapse.

Whether or not one agreed with him, his stand was not "wishy-washy". It was the brain of the listener that was malfunctioning.

It wasn't one listener who said things like this, but many. One said she liked what Bush said because when he spoke of feeling the prayers of constituents she knew he was a good Christian.

It was frightening to hear my countrymen...very frightening. They did not follow what was being said.

BTW, the listeners who supported Kerry were, on average, far brighter and more articulate.

Deborah
 

Jennifer5973

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Hi, Deborah. here we go again...
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I am certainly no expert but I try to understand the complexities of the key issues as much as possible and after reading, watching, thinking, and discussing with informed friends and family members, I just feel hopeless because neither candidate is qualified or impressive enough to lead he best democracy in the world.

I look at my grandfathers, decorated WWII veterans who thought nothing of risking their lives for this country and its basic principles, and I am ashamed at the lack of leadership of subsequent generations.
sad.gif
 

AGBF

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And one more thing.

Last night Mr. Bush said that he had never said that Osama bin Laden was not a threat as Mr. Kerry quoted him as saying. He acted as if Mr. Kerry was out of his mind, was fabricating something, when Mr. Kerry quoted him. This is the man who accuses Mr. Kerry of "flip flops" if he ever weighs two sides to any argument!

In March, 2002, at a press conference Mr. Bush was asked this question and made this reply. This transcript is verbatim:

Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run.
 

AGBF

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On 10/14/2004 11:51:00 AM Jennifer5973 wrote:

Hi, Deborah. here we go again...
2.gif



I am certainly no expert but I try to understand the complexities of the key issues as much as possible and after reading, watching, thinking, and discussing with informed friends and family members, I just feel hopeless because neither candidate is qualified or impressive enough to lead he best democracy in the world.

sad.gif
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What, exactly, makes Senator Kerry unqualified? I feel he is supremely qualified, although I do not agree with him on many issues since I find him far too conservative.

Mr. Bush's stupidity *DOES* make *HIM* unqualified. As I said here before, my fear is not what would happen if Mr. Bush dies while President, but what would happen if Mr. Cheney died!
 

Jennifer5973

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You've got a point--maybe Kerry sounds more qualified and is more qualified on paper, but I feel strongly that neither of these men is the caliber we ought to be striving for in our leadership. When it comes to the ticket, I flat-out can't stand Edwards.

I respect your opinion and intellectually understand it, but I cannot rally around either of these candidates, and I guess that's my official stance. I also tend to be conservative, although I do believe in a woman's right to choose. That's always been a challenge in my voting decisions and unfortunately, the far right still seems to have a hold on the Republican party, because it seems like the more moderate Republicans get winnowed out quite often.

The last time there was a candidate to be excited about, I wasn't even old enough to vote.
rolleyes.gif


PS It also doesn't help that I fear we never really are given the right information or are told the truth about anything.... I am not a conspiracy theory nut but I feel manipulated by the media, the politicians, and the system more often than not.
 

AGBF

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On 10/14/2004 12:31:33 PM Jennifer5973 wrote:



The last time there was a candidate to be excited about, I wasn't even old enough to vote.
rolleyes.gif


Same here. In my case that would have been FDR, although I find him repulsive in how he treated Eleanor, who was a *saint* to put up with him as *well* as a woman of tremendous courage! During World Wat II she took unheated army planes, carrying a typewriter as part of her allotted 40 lbs of luggage, to be Franklin's "eyes and ears" since he was paralyzed.

Deborah
 

Rank Amateur

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It's been three and a half years and those grapes taste just as sour as ever. Never has this country seen such a bunch of sore losers as the current liberal populace. One would think the whining and name calling would be beneath them. It's downright crazy. Deb you need to spend more time at your psychoanalyst.

Heck, I almost want Kerry to win just to help put these poor liberal people out of their misery. Then they can feel good about paying a ton of Federal taxes and seeing the government waste it.
rodent.gif
 

Dancing Fire

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If Kerry wins, he will take all diamonds from the rich ladies on PS and give it to the poor.
eek.gif
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chris-uk04

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On 10/14/2004 11:32:10 AM AGBF wrote:

In reality, the question (which had been posed to the President) was why he didn't advocate a continuation of the ban on assault weapons. After he gave his reply, Senator Kerry gave his. He (Kerry) said that he was a hunter, had been since he was 12, and that he believed in the Second Amendment. He said that law enforcement officials, however, needed the continued ban on assault weapons. He gave an example of a fellow hunter, who happened to be a local sheriff, telling him that during a recent drug raid they found an AK47 on the premises. He mentioned the threat of AK47s in the hand of terrorists, saying that Osama bin Laden had apparently advocated that his followers obtain these at gun shows (when that was possible).

Whether or not one agreed with him, Senator Kerry's position couldn't have been clearer: he did not want to take guns from hunters, but did want to take submachine guns from everyone...including drug dealers and terrorists who could buy them without background checks at gun shows if the assault weapons ban were allowed to lapse.

Whether or not one agreed with him, his stand was not 'wishy-washy'.... It wasn't one listener who said things like this, but many. One said she liked what Bush said because when he spoke of feeling the prayers of constituents she knew he was a good Christian.

It was frightening to hear my countrymen...very frightening. They did not follow what was being said.

BTW, the listeners who supported Kerry were, on average, far brighter and more articulate.

Deborah

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Well his stand at the debate might not have been wishy washy along with Kerry’s stands on several other things during the debate. However, it’s his voting record that contrasts to his stand. He claims to be a hunter, but has never found a piece of anti-gun legislation that he didn’t support. Kerry also claims to be personally against abortion, but believes it’s an individual decision. However, he has been on the pro-abortion side every time. Now I don’t want to go into debating these highly charged topics, but only point out that Kerry wants it both ways. He wants to say things to make him appeal to the hunter or Catholic, but vote the way of the anti-gun folk and the pro-choicers. These are the contrasting types of statement that Kerry has made throughout the recent weeks. A ninety minute debate can’t erase 20 years of voting records. Citizens who have followed the election cycle can be confused to what “side” he is actually on. This leads to an appearance of being wishy-washy.

What is so “frightening” about a woman liking Bush because is a practicing Christian? What was more frightening, were the women who supported Clinton because he was “good looking.”
 

AGBF

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On 10/14/2004 9:56:50 PM Rank Amateur wrote:



Heck, I almost want Kerry to win just to help put these poor liberal people out of their misery. Then they can feel good about paying a ton of Federal taxes and seeing the government waste it.
rodent.gif



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R/A-

I am not a whiner. I have been to the psychoanalyst enough to assert myself rather than let other people tell me what to do then whine about it :). A complaint about the President is not whining about how the last election turned out; it is a complaint about the President. Bush is stupid.

If you were a true conservative you would look at the money wasted by *THIS* administration. I mean, HELLO!!!! Republicans USED to want a balanced budget. Why do we have the biggest deficit ever if someone hasn't been wasting money during the BUSH administration?

As always,
Deb
 

AGBF

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On 10/14/2004 10:19:25 PM vtigger86 wrote:

If Kerry wins, he will take all diamonds from the rich ladies on PS and give it to the poor.
eek.gif
naughty.gif
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Well...in "Gone With the Wind" the rich ladies donated their wedding rings to the Confederacy. Stranger things have happened than to have the populace make sacrifices for the common good. Some patriotic people even do it willingly.
 

AGBF

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On 10/15/2004 3:43:06 AM chris-uk04 wrote:

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What is so “frightening” about a woman liking Bush because is a practicing Christian? What was more frightening, were the women who supported Clinton because he was “good looking.”


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If you want my true opinion, I am less frightened by women liking Clinton for his looks than I am by women likng Bush for his supposed "Christianity". (BTW, I never heard women liked Clinton for his looks. I thought that was JFK.)

I also think that Bush is to Christian as battleaxe is to plowshare. But I will not go there if *YOU* do not return there. We obviously have huge religious differences as well a huge political ones.

My point was not that some poor woman mistook Bush for a Christian, but that all she took out of a debate was that Bush said he "felt" the prayers of his constituents. I do NOT think that is a good reason to vote for someone to be President. I think it is SAD. I think her lack of ability to understand issues is SAD.

When the country was founded only male property owners could vote. In general people have applauded the enfranchisement of others. I now find myself in the position not of wanting a poll tax, but perhaps the passing of a test showing that one knows something about the issues before one is allowed to vote.

Yes, I say this tongue in cheek (as someone above said Kerry would take diamonds from the rich women), but a part of me thinks we need it! Immigrants wanting citizenship have to pass a test. Why not make voters take one, too?
 

fire&ice

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Why not make voters take one, too?

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Would the NY Times make up the list of questions?
wink2.gif
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And, I see nothing wrong with voting for Bush because he is a good Christian. It's a person's perogative to do so. You vote because you *feel* a certain way. Doesn't make the way you feel correct. It's just why you are voting the way you vote.

Hogwash & elitist - Smarter people vote for Kerry - come on. I think my friends who are republicans are pretty intelligent. So to follow your logic.....

F&I voting for Bush = stupid?
F&I voting for Kerry = informed & smart?

Interesting that in one pull of lever I can be either.
wink2.gif
 

AGBF

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On 10/15/2004 11:48:50 AM fire&ice wrote:

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Why not make voters take one, too?


----------------


F&I voting for Bush = stupid?

F&I voting for Kerry = informed & smart?


Interesting that in one pull of lever I can be either.
wink2.gif
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Au contraire, mon amie! Never did I imply that YOUR intelligence would change as you voted for Bush-the-Moron or Kerry-of-the-Normal-IQ. What made you think I would say that?


Deborah ;-)
 

chris-uk04

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On 10/15/2004 10:39:38 AM AGBF wrote:

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If you want my true opinion, I am less frightened by women liking Clinton for his looks than I am by women likng Bush for his supposed 'Christianity'....

My point was not that some poor woman mistook Bush for a Christian, but that all she took out of a debate was that Bush said he 'felt' the prayers of his constituents. I do NOT think that is a good reason to vote for someone to be President. I think it is SAD. I think her lack of ability to understand issues is SAD.

When the country was founded only male property owners could vote. In general people have applauded the enfranchisement of others. I now find myself in the position not of wanting a poll tax, but perhaps the passing of a test showing that one knows something about the issues before one is allowed to vote....

----------------


There are plenty of people voting for Kerry solely because he is NOT George Bush. That's not scary? What about some of the get-out-the-vote drives, where some political organizer drives around in a big van, picking up ambivalent people and taking them to the polling station, while telling them who to vote for?

Well it would be nice if people took the time to look at issues, see stances, and form opinions, but a test isn’t a good idea. Informed by whom?... as F&I likes to ask is a good point. What are the questions and who’s doing the grading? Imagine this question
The tax cuts will (please circle all that apply):

A. Benefit the rich only
B. Spur the economy
C. Create more homeless
D. Benefit all Americans.

How is that supposed to be answered? It’s a bad bad idea in a democracy, because one side will try to control thought. Besides, it’s also a lot harder for dead people in Chicago to vote if they had to take a test.
3.gif
 

AGBF

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Chris,

Actually I agree with you about the test. My suggestion was tongue in cheek (see posting). In the South of the United States a "literacy test", graded by whoever had the power, was used to keep black citizens from voting. Just as the poll tax was.

I was expressing frustration at having people like the ones YOU describe above (picked up in vans and given $1.00) vote. Only it doesn't matter to me whether an uninformed voter is picked up in a van or drives his own Lexus to the local polling place. Uninformed voters scare me.

I *could* make up a good test, though. It wouldn't be opinions. It woulb be similar to the citizenship test immigrants take. All right, all right, I won't write one...but I *COULD*! (History teacher in another life.)



PS-The dead in Chicago could be grandfathered in ;-).
 

Rank Amateur

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Bush does better among "likely voters" than "registered voters". I wonder why? (Aside from the obvious you need to be breathing to be polled and counted as a likely voter.)

Democrats (or is it Democratics?) are more apathetic? Undecided? Unmotivated? Don't know how to use the ballot? Intimidated? Too smart to vote? Too educated to vote? Boot stuck in saddle of high horse? Supressed by the evil conservative empire? Deceived/tricked into not voting?

A ridiculous amount of tonnage in fat lazy registered voters don't turn out (on both sides). Pathetic, really.
 

AGBF

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On 10/18/2004 5:25:54 PM Rank Amateur wrote:


A ridiculous amount of registered voters don't turn out (on both sides). Pathetic, really.


Actually, it is a ridiculous number of voters who do not turn out ;-).

Deb
 

Rank Amateur

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I see they are now offering crack cocaine for new voter registrations. In my State no less.

I wonder which party those brilliant people are working for?
 

fire&ice

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On 10/19/2004 10:51:45 PM Rank Amateur wrote:

I see they are now offering crack cocaine for new voter registrations. In my State no less.

I wonder which party those brilliant people are working for? ----------------


Well, it was reported here that the women who gave the crack worked for the NCAA.
 

chris-uk04

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On 10/20/2004 9:59:33 AM fire&ice wrote:

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On 10/19/2004 10:51:45 PM Rank Amateur wrote:

I see they are now offering crack cocaine for new voter registrations. In my State no less.

I wonder which party those brilliant people are working for? ----------------


Well, it was reported here that the women who gave the crack worked for the NCAA.
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It's claimed she worked for the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) not the NCAA (which is college athletics board).

I'm not sure what kind of advancing this once proud organization is trying to do? What kind of slogan where they pushing... "Crack for Kerry" ... "Crack and Kerry...both Marion Barry's choice"..."Kerry will put a chicken in every oven and some crack in every pipe".
 

fire&ice

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On 10/20/2004 10:34:17 AM Feydakin wrote:

Hmmm, NCAA, NAACP, NAALCP, NAMBLA they all sort of run together for me
1.gif

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Geez, I've got basketball on my brain. It's was the NAACP.
 
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