The thin line between self-promotion and education

[Upgradable]

*By admission I am not an expert, professional, or meticulously self-educated jeweler/gemologist. I am just your run-of-the-mill, slightly gem obsessed consumer who has taken great advantage of this forum and website in clarifying my wants and needs to get the most of my jewelry purchases. And as an American who was nurtured on the teat of democracy, but also willingly acknowledges the slightly smelly underbelly of rampant consumerism, fed sugar and refined flour by our media and political pundits, I am increasingly concerned about the recently posted ANNOUNCEMENT rebuffing any post or link even smacking of self-promotion.

I see access to professionals, their opinions AND their handiwork as one of the great advantages of this forum. How else would I have the opportunity to ask about what makes a well cut sapphire and get a direct response from Richard Wise? Or, are there any of us who haven''t used Garry Holloway''s cut advisor? I concede we need to be concerned about this forum not turning into another form of ebay, or take a blatently self-promoting biased direction that we have seen other boards degenerate into.

So, as a long-time lurker, I''d like to ask those of you who post regularly, consumers and professionals alike, to honestly respond to this question (either hypothetically or specifically).


*I emailed Pricescope administrators about the appropriateness of such a post and received no response.

 

[strmrdr]

pricescope is first and foremost a consumer to consumer forum.
The experts help when needed and keep things accurate.
They also help interested consumers gain the knowledge to help others.
There is a very thin line between education and self-promotion.
A lot of time it comes down to intent which is hard to figure out at times.
Sometimes I think the rules are too restrictive other times Im glad they are restrictive as they are.
Moderating these forum is a rough job and sometimes no matter what is done someone is going to complain.
What it boils down to for me is that while I dont always agree with the decisions I know they have the interest of the consumers, the forum and yes the vendors at heart.
There have been times when I didnt like the decision at the time but saw the wisdom of it later.
There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes to make sure that any decision is the best thing for the board.

But when it comes down to it there is no democracy here we are guests of the sites owners and should act accordingly.
Dont like their rules then move on.

 

[oldminer]

Self promotion is best done by pledging to yourself that it is not your "goal". The goal should be informing people who wish to learn by being a teacher. The goal should be to continue to be willing to listen to others who just might happen to know something I don't know. It happens all the time.

Self promotion, for its own sake, is destructive and creates an air of suspicion. A willingness to share, to learn and to be open-minded creates the right atmosphere for everyone who participates. There is a good balance struck here which does not prevent making relationships and getting to know eachother, but also prohibits people seeking business here from turning the forums into a carnival midway full of pitches and advertising.

Leonid is right in making written rules which he feels he, as the owner, can enforce, as he deems apprpropriate. All of us are his guests here and we need to value the rules of this website. It has worked very well for me and for many others. I'd hope to keep it working well for as long as we can all make it happen.

 

[perry]

For anyone who has not read it in detail - I direct you to the following link which is the Agreement you accepted to use this forum.

www.pricescope.com/idealbb/faq.asp?mode=agreement

I actually suggest that you read it several times, and the linked "Terms of Use"

Forum Rule 6, subsection i: "interfere with the Forum Service ..." is often interpreted to include not discussing how the forum moderator moderates.

I understand the necessity of such a rule based on my participation in other forums.

This is Leonid''s forum. He sets the rules, he interprets the rules.

No further discussion allowed.

If you don''t agree - don''t participate.

My experience is to even allow such a discussion causes far more damage to the forum than what the "issues" under discussion might cause.

Leonid: I hope I did not step over the line by pointing this out.

Perry

 

[Upgradable]

In case my intent is misunderstood, I too think this is an incredibly moderated, even-handed forum. I don''t think there''d be the quality membership if it wasn''t. I just thought discussion of the issue would be edifying in its own right. I didn''t mean to infer criticism, just open discussion.

 

[Rank Amateur]

Any contribution from a pro could always be construed as self-promotion. Smart, timely advice from a pro builds goodwill. This goodwill can be cashed in when consumers are attracted to the vendor or appraiser. This is the natural order of things. I suppose you could make everyone anonymous, but then a pro''s credibility wouldnt'' be as obvious. And it wouldn''t be as much fun.

Paying vendors get special treatment and are allowed a bit more promotional leeway. Even non-paying vendors who contribute a lot let it be known what kind of wares they sell. It all is embibed with self-promotion. Some come here with the intent to sell their stuff and for others it is a happy coincidence. Some are here just for the fun of sharing their passion for jewels. It''s all good.

I think Leonid has kept a good balance between freedom and protection. I wouldn''t like the protections taken any farther than the current practices. It will always be buyer beware and I''m OK with that.

Heck, it seems like there are as many abuses by consumers as there are by vendors. Maybe it should be "seller beware" lest the iron hand of the Pricescope Forum extort its toll on you!

 

[Maxine]

Date: 6/25/2005 12:33:06 PM
Author: Rank Amateur


Heck, it seems like there are as many abuses by consumers as there are by vendors. Maybe it should be ''seller beware'' lest the iron hand of the Pricescope Forum extort its toll on you!

Good point!!!! There are two sides to every issue........

 

[MissAva]

I am a student trying to learn as much as I can so on the occasion I buy something I know what I am paying for. I think that experts we have posting here and even some of the consumers(aljedewey, belle, regular guy, strmdr,..) are here beucase they enjoy discussing something they have learned about diamonds or trying to learn more. This site is an educational resource and for those who would like to buy a safe place to ask queastion and reeicve honest answers. I think we need to take it as we have found it and be careful to keep from infrences about how things are meant. I do not know others minds and I try to avoid making judgements. If you always assume the best of yoru fellow PSers things go better. However that does not mean that if you notice someone blantly breaking the rules that you ought to ignore it. A simple PM to Lenoid and/or his wife and they will take care of it prompetly. JMO

 

[pricescope]

Date: 6/25/2005 9:51:55 AM
Author:Upgradable

*I emailed Pricescope administrators about the appropriateness of such a post and received no response.

Upgradable, I emailed you back the same hour...please check your spam box...

Here is what I wrote:

Hi M******, I appreciate that you asked before posting this.

We are trying to keep the forum civil and enjoyable for consumer without being spammed or bombarded with advertisements and insults. We had witnessed it elsewhere.

You probably do not see it but we constantly monitor the forum and cleaning it from obvious spam and other types of abuses. Letting it go will turn the forum into classified board and all good experts and consumers will be gone.

The experts, who offer helpful and professional advice to consumers without promoting themselves, are getting more appreciation and business than if they would just bombard the forum with sales pitches.

I don't really understand what your poll is about

The policies were and will stay. My announcement was just a reminder to both vendors and consumers to have mutual respect to each other and the community we all enjoy.

All the posters above gave you great answers (thank you guys

). I just want to add that there are different ways to post educational content and get good promotion at the same time by writing articles, tutorials etc. It is free, beneficial for consumers, Pricescope and the author is getting all the credits and links... I think it is fair.

Finally, Upgradable, we are not discussing forum moderation here. Got a suggestion - send it via PM. (see forum policies)

PS: Rank Amateur, ma man

, once you see that "Paying vendors get special treatment and are allowed a bit more promotional leeway", don't be a stranger and hit "Report this post" link.

 

[pricescope]

Date: 6/25/2005 12:26:27 PM
Author: Upgradable
In case my intent is misunderstood, I too think this is an incredibly moderated, even-handed forum. I don't think there'd be the quality membership if it wasn't. I just thought discussion of the issue would be edifying in its own right. I didn't mean to infer criticism, just open discussion.

Must admit, it is my bad. I probably misunderstood the original post. Open discussion is healthy - let's do it.

What we just realized is that some members (even those who've been here for a long time) do not know who the sponsors are. We tried to make it clear by marking advertising and sponsored stuff as such. If it is not market as advertisement, it most probably isn’t (we could miss something so please tell/ask if you're unsure). Disclaimer: diamond listing is a paid thing.

All advertisers are listed in Vendor's page . All others - aren't. This includes all the appraisers and local brick and mortar jewelers. All the experts in the colored forum are not advertisers... did I miss somebody?

. Bottom line is that if an expert is signing his/her post with a link to a website, it doesn’t mean he/she is an advertiser.

For the record, Garry Holloway (Cut Nut), is not an advertiser but my friend and a great soul. Without his help, tutorials and everyday contributions this site probably would be the way it is now. He's got special treatment and as Aussie will be indulged for anything he does

All the trade members are welcome to join the community and sign their posts with the company name and a link. Some rules of common sense, tact and ethics apply. It's all in the policies.

We believe that professional advice from an expert to consumers (without advertising blurb, fear tactic or offering goods for sale) is the best advertising and beneficial for both community and the experts.

Sometimes we have to decide where the line between self-promotion and education is. Usually, we communicate with a trade member via PM's or email several times if we think that he/she crossed the line especially if they are new here.

Some experts understand what we trying to do here and have no problem with the policies. Sometimes, however, we deal with people who do not care about the community rules and don’t want to listen to any reasons or all they really want is to make some sales and very surprised when we tell them it is not allowed on the forum.

We understand that some consumers wouldn’t mind to see more eye-candy stuff posted from the trade members and get more entertainment or freebies. This, however, can open the door to a lot of "for sale" messages, which will lead to the degradation of the community.

We are also humans and are not happy when somebody from the trade comes here with biased opinion about community members and this site. I'm sorry but if you badmouth consumers and this community elsewhere, please do not post here and place a link to your site...

In conclusion, please keep in mind that running and developing of this site, although very exciting, takes a lot of time and efforts. It couldn’t be possible without advertisement. Therefore, I personally want to say thank you to the companies who support what we are doing. I hope those who enjoy this site for free can appreciate it...

Cheers

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/26/2005 3:59:25 AM
Author: Pricescope

I hope those who enjoy this site for free can appreciate it...

Cheers

I do...we do.

Many thanks.

 

[pricescope]

Allow me to comment on the original poll's questions.

1. Is the benefit of free access to professional opinions and work worth the possible perception of self-promotion, and do you trust your judgement to discern between the two?

Taking this question alone, the answer is - of course! Consumers should be able to communicate with the experts. I also believe that people are intelligent enough to decide for themselves what is making sense for them.

The problem is that allowing more freedom for self-advertising can easily degrade the quality of the place and it won't be attractive for the top experts as well as proactive consumers (prosumers).... That is why some rules and limitations should stay to keep the quality of the place.

As I wrote above, there are many other ways for a true expert to be rewarded for contributing to the community.

2. One of Pricescope's primary should be to protect unsophisticated consumers from subtle forms of bias and self-promotion.

It is not primary Pricescope mission. We see our role in facilitating the discussion and exchange of the information and different points of views. It requires some restriction of self-promotion to keep up the quality of the place.

I'm following other professional forums (not in the jewelry trade) and the best ones are those that do not allow any promotions and links to the members' websites. You should see the quality of the content and level of the experts as well as recognition and appreciation.

3. Other perspective. Please elaborate.

Hope I already did

 

[movie zombie]

some ramblings:

if it weren''t for both the consumer and professionals who post at pricescope, i wouldn''t have even known who i might trust as either a cutter or to buy from. having access to professional opinions has made me not only a more informed consumer but a more likely to buy consumer. the gem world has its own community and those of us not a part of that community are left to flounder unless we happen upon a really really good jeweler we learn to trust or we find pricescope and start to get educated. having access to the professionals really helps in that self-education. this website works because of both the consumer and professional posts.....but it works primarily because we are protected from being bombarded by ads and perhaps even misinformation. i''d never have my spess if it weren''t for pricescope.......

peace, movie zombie

 

[Upgradable]

Wow! Thanks Leonid. This is what I had hoped, open dialogue to clarify and give context for those of us who are newer to this board.

One of the voids I have encountered, and see other people stumbling through, is access to quality craftsmen who are outside the stone market. Might there be room for expansion under the resource menu for consumer recommended custom jewelers and stone cutters?

 

[perry]

Upgradeable:

Since all jewlery designers, fabricators, etc and all stone cutters sell their products in the end to the consumer - they can all be thought of as "consumer recommended." Otherwise they would be out of business.

The question I believe that you implied was some form of list of "pricescope" consumer recommended.

I believe it would be a bad idea, and it has been discussed before.

First, different folks like different strokes. What I prefer may well not be what you prefer. I have to be honest, I look at a lot of rings that other people rave at (setting desing) and I go ... ho hum... While others excite me.

Many people on pricescope go in for basic settings, others go for custom work where they are willing to pay a lot extra for craftsmanship and/or a name.

Second: Pricescope currently only represents or has recommendations for a small percentage of jewelrs out there. There are many high quality vendors out there that would be denied an opportunity just because Pricescope''s list did not list them. That is not fair.

I think we should leave things as they are. New vendors are free to join or be referenced without any built up preconcieved influence by "Pricescope."

Of course, pricescope memeberd do talk about certain jewlers and suppliers more often than others - and that does kinda make up a reference list of sorts; all you have to do is dig up the postings and learn more about what other people think about that vendor. I call this; Sweat Equity.

Perry

 

[MINE!!]

Here is what I think

What I enjoy most about Pricescope is that someone is not advertising to me!! That is wonderful. I came here for education and I was able to receive it. I have seem some posts that are 'outside' the rules and Lenoid takes care of those quickly. We are guests here and if we have questions then they will be answered within the rules. I wanted to know what to look for in choosing a quality stone, setting, jeweler, etc. and I was able to do it without someone posting.. "Hey buy this from me" "buy that from me" " Here is what you want and I am the only one who has it.." That would not be education.. that would be another ebay or spam mail. Google would produce the very same results.

I love eye candy (no way right?) But I think that it would be quite unfortunate for someone to post their eye-candy just for us to purchase it (from the experts.) I love the fact that there is a site that I can get information.. directly from the experts and not feel the pressure of thinking that they are informing me just becuase they want me to buy something from them.

Being informed means, that I will probably visit their website anyway, though not buy anything, I will know they have provided me with information that can be supported by other experts.

This is what make Pricescope so wonderful!! YES I do think that people are smart enough to know the difference, but I think that it is a lot easier if we do not have to work around the ....'spam'... so to speak.

I just wanted to say that I am very grateful for this site and all of the wonderful people that have helped me along, informed me on my ignorance (even without pointing out my ignorance) and turned me around when I was going in the wrong direction.

AND thank you Lenoid, I have learned so much here and I know that it must be difficult to keep up with things sometimes, but because of your hard work Pscope is priceless!!

Bravo!!

 

[Mara]

having been the recipient of some unwelcome private messages when new trade members signed up for PS and saw me asking for advice re: a stone or a setting and took it upon themselves to offer their services to me...i am very happy with PS the way it is with really no self-promotion.

it is pretty easy to find out who is a trade member here, what they do etc, by checking out their personal profile and/or reading some of their posts. i think they are also allowed a url link in their signature but not in their posts themselves. so in that signature as well, many trade members identify themselves and you can check out goods and services if you click through on the link.

i personally love eye-candy and we do get alot of it here...sometimes the line is a bit gray and blurred on when someone is self-promotion or just assisting or seeking market research etc, there have been times where i thought something was not self-promo but it was deemed so and removed, or vice-versa...i''m sure we all experience this because someone''s idea of XYZ can be that gray or blurred area.

in any case, for the most part, moderating this place is a HARD job to do and Leonid and Irina do a fabulous job...i think PS is great the way it is....having seen other forums where the paid vendors RULE the place and have their own little forums and this and that, and finding it unappealing from the beginning, PS is where I gravitated way back when and i never regretted it.

 

[velouriaL]

First off, thanks Leonid for the great work you do with this forum! It''s such an invaluable resource for people looking to purchase or just learn more about diamonds, gems, and jewelry.

I do think it would be neat to have one or both of this feautures:

1. A "Review" forum where CONSUMERS have an opportunity to talk about a SPECIFIC experience with a vendor. The posts could use standardized forms and be previewed by the moderator before posting. I think this would make people more comfortable discussing the pros and cons of a particular vendor as related to their own experience. The moderator could reserve the right not to publish anything that seemed false (i.e., like advertising) or slanderous or otherwise inappropriate.

2. An opportunity for members of the trade to produce "article" posts about the process of tackling a particularly interesting job for previous customers (i.e., ones that have already been sold). Again, these posts would have to be submitted first to Leonid and limited (perhaps 2 such post per vendor per year). I think that this would be a good opportunity for consumers to learn more about the trade and it''s challenges.

Just a couple of ideas!