The texting suicide case, what do you think of the verdict?

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Most states have laws against assisted suicide. I'm not sure what the parameters are for falling in that category, but this reminds me of coaching someone.

I once belonged to a group that had a fellow, who continually threatened suicide. He would give the time and day he was planning to end his life. By the time I knew him, he was more of a joke. People no longer took him seriously, after much handwringing and trying to help him, they just told him, OK Pat, goodbye. The dates always passed.

I, however, wasn't used to him, so the next time it occurred, I invited him to my house to stay as he was homeless. I was ill at the time, and needed to go east for treatments and to say goodbye to my parents and brother. When Pat heard of my plight, he was the kindest, loveliest human being you could find. He was as concerned a human being that I never expected.

I returned home and Pat lived with me for about a year. He found a girlfriend and never mentioned suicide again. He was a child who was in an infamous school fire where he lost his sister, ad a Viet Nam Vet with PTSD. He is alive today although I don't see him anymore. He never wanted to commit suicide. I'm glad he didn't.

By the way, people said I was nuts to take him in-he was also a thief. But I remember his kindness to me. I wrote a short story about him that was almost published.

Annette

 

[AnnaH]

A, I would have read that story.

 

[telephone89]

Its an interesting and complex situation. There are many things that are illegal that don't involve actually touching someone. Emotional, verbal abuse, neglect, negligence, withholding medical care. All of these things can/do cause harm/death, and both people and companies are held liable. If Toyota knew about the brake pedal issue and didn't say anything and it ended up killing someone, you can bet your ass they'd be liable for criminal charges. They were lucky no one died and ended up settling.

So I don't think you have to physically pull the trigger to be held accountable. There have been lawsuits against cult leaders who brainwash young kids into doing terrible things. There are school districts sued for neglect when students have come forward to express suicidal thoughts [similar to 13 reasons]. So I don't think this case is really that far out in left field.

 

[Puppmom]

I don't really have anything to add other than what's been said here about this awful tragedy. I'm hoping someone has insight as to why Carter and her counsel chose a bench trial. I understand that, based on the texts revealed in court, she would not have made a good impression on a jury. But I still feel like she may have had a better chance with a jury. Maybe I'm not putting enough stock into the terrible impression the jury would have of her from the beginning and how that would influence the outcome. Thoughts?

 

[whitewave]

I think she would have had a better shot with a jury.

 

[AnnaH]

Would think that her lawyers thought the case was weak, and the judge would more likely recognize that than a jury. As it turns out, of course, they were wrong.

 

[telephone89]

I would assume that they (lawyers) thought the judge would go more off the law, jurors off "feelings". Many people (even in this thread) thought what she did was reprehensible, maybe to the point of ignoring what the law actually says. Of course, that isn't how it played out, but that's what I would think. Especially considering how flexible the reasoning behind manslaughter is.

 

[iLander]

I don't agree with the verdict, because you can't legislate against being a thoroughly nasty person. (For anyone who doesn't know the story, over the phone she consistently told him to kill himself, told him that his family would get over it, and when he got out of the car, not wanting to go through with it, she ordered him back in to finish the job! She gave exceedingly strong encouragement over a long period of time, consistently saying everything she could possibly think of to encourage him to kill himself.)

This makes her a platinum-level uber-bitch.

However, being a platinum-level uber-bitch is not illegal.

It is now.
It's a legal precedent now, and I hope she gets the longest possible sentence. And bunks with a really awful cellmate.
I kinda want to kick the s*** out of her and I'm not generally a violent person. But for her, I'll make an exception.

 

[Indylady]

I didn't catch anyone posting this, but its also late where I am. Here are the texts: http://deadstate.org/here-are-the-d...r-pressuring-her-boyfriend-to-commit-suicide/. They're pretty sick. I believe in First Amendment rights, but--some speech isn't protected--things like threats, extortion, aiding and abetting a crime, solicitation--they're all words too--but they be criminal acts as well. I don't know how to come out on this one, and am finding the lines between legal, ethical, and moral to be so twisted. All in all, its really devastating.

 

[Arkteia]

Hi,

Most states have laws against assisted suicide. I'm not sure what the parameters are for falling in that category, but this reminds me of coaching someone.

I once belonged to a group that had a fellow, who continually threatened suicide. He would give the time and day he was planning to end his life. By the time I knew him, he was more of a joke. People no longer took him seriously, after much handwringing and trying to help him, they just told him, OK Pat, goodbye. The dates always passed.

I, however, wasn't used to him, so the next time it occurred, I invited him to my house to stay as he was homeless. I was ill at the time, and needed to go east for treatments and to say goodbye to my parents and brother. When Pat heard of my plight, he was the kindest, loveliest human being you could find. He was as concerned a human being that I never expected.

I returned home and Pat lived with me for about a year. He found a girlfriend and never mentioned suicide again. He was a child who was in an infamous school fire where he lost his sister, ad a Viet Nam Vet with PTSD. He is alive today although I don't see him anymore. He never wanted to commit suicide. I'm glad he didn't.

By the way, people said I was nuts to take him in-he was also a thief. But I remember his kindness to me. I wrote a short story about him that was almost published.

Annette

I hope you are doing better, Annette. I would have read the story, too.

 

[TooPatient]

I didn't catch anyone posting this, but its also late where I am. Here are the texts: http://deadstate.org/here-are-the-d...r-pressuring-her-boyfriend-to-commit-suicide/. They're pretty sick. I believe in First Amendment rights, but--some speech isn't protected--things like threats, extortion, aiding and abetting a crime, solicitation--they're all words too--but they be criminal acts as well. I don't know how to come out on this one, and am finding the lines between legal, ethical, and moral to be so twisted. All in all, its really devastating.

Thank you for posting. Wow.

 

[iLander]

I didn't catch anyone posting this, but its also late where I am. Here are the texts: http://deadstate.org/here-are-the-d...r-pressuring-her-boyfriend-to-commit-suicide/. They're pretty sick. I believe in First Amendment rights, but--some speech isn't protected--things like threats, extortion, aiding and abetting a crime, solicitation--they're all words too--but they be criminal acts as well. I don't know how to come out on this one, and am finding the lines between legal, ethical, and moral to be so twisted. All in all, its really devastating.

Actually, I think in many states, suicide is a crime.

 

[monarch64]

Actually, I think in many states, suicide is a crime.

"Historically, various states listed the act of suicide as a felony, but these policies were sparsely enforced. In the late 1960s, eighteen U.S. states had no laws against suicide.[126]By the late 1980s, thirty of the fifty states had no laws against suicide or suicide attempts but every state had laws declaring it to be a felony to aid, advise or encourage another person to commit suicide.[127] By the early 1990s only two states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification.[citation needed] In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in 1992. Wackwitz v. Roy, 418 S.E.2d 861 (Va. 1992)). As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the late suicidal person's family in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded monetary damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[128] Some American legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, former President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[129] Physician-assisted suicide is legal in some states.[130] For the terminally ill, it is legal in the state of Oregon under the Oregon Death with Dignity Act. In Washington state, it became legal in 2009, when a law modeled after the Oregon act, the Washington Death with Dignity Act was passed. A patient must be diagnosed as having less than six months to live, be of sound mind, make a request orally and in writing, have it approved by two different doctors, then wait 15 days and make the request again. A doctor may prescribe a lethal dose of a medication but may not administer it.[131]

In California, medical facilities are empowered or required to commit anyone whom they believe to be suicidal for evaluation and treatment.[" --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation

 

[Arkteia]

The whole court process is on YouTube, btw. I watched it - I was interested in the participants, all of them. Not Perry Mason's case, just a provincial court, but interesting to observe.

Something very bizarre about the whole situation. Michelle and Carter probably met 3-4 times. They were not boyfriend-girlfriend in the normal meaning of this word. He likely had somewhere close by. She told everyone Roy was her boyfriend, but obsessed about a girl.

She might have been a bitch, but in own school she was lonely and unpopular. The look on her face when her ex-classmates during the process were saying they were not her friends, merely acquaintances, and struggled to remember details about her. The same girls whose friendship she so craved.
How Roy allowed to be so easily led on is beyond my comprehension.

I welcome the decision. Since we spend so much time in virtual world, we should behave more responsibly there. However, Carter will be natural victim in a jail. And parents' lapses were also obvious.

 

[Amber St. Clare]

I also think she is deserving of jail time. She knew how vulnerable this young man was. She could of saved his life and gotten him the help he needed with one phone call.

I also think the young men that didn't get help for the faternity pledge who lay dying for hours should also get jail time. The stories I read about this trial were also heart wrenching.

At the very least I think jail time sends a very strong message that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. It really makes you wonder how these kids are being raised.

I think she deserves a year or two in prison with counseling then an extended probation requiring counseling. I see her as narcissistic and manipulative and dangerous.

 

[Arkteia]

In this article, there is a photo of her parents. I think it sheds a certain light on what she inherited from each parent. Mother, who posts on her FB about her prom and trips to Disheyland, is probably fame-craving ... and father with a very telling expression, I think.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sney-World-prom-ahead-manslaughter-trial.html

 

[tyty333]

Why in the world would her mother be updating her FB account??? That's just weird...something not right here mentally.

If it were my kid, heaven forbid, I dont think there would be Prom or Disney world. There would be lots of therapy...lots and lots.
Looks like they could use some family therapy as well.

 

[Imdanny]

Hi,

Most states have laws against assisted suicide. I'm not sure what the parameters are for falling in that category, but this reminds me of coaching someone.

I once belonged to a group that had a fellow, who continually threatened suicide. He would give
time and day he was planning to end his life. By the time I knew him, he was more of a joke. People no longer took him seriously, after much handwringing and trying to help him, they just told him, OK Pat, goodbye. The dates always passed.

I, however, wasn't used to him, so the next time it occurred, I invited him to my house to stay as he was homeless. I was ill at the time, and needed to go east for treatments and to say goodbye to my parents and brother. When Pat heard of my plight, he was the kindest, loveliest human being you could find. He was as concerned a human being that I never expected.

I returned home and Pat lived with me for about a year. He found a girlfriend and never mentioned suicide again. He was a child who was in an infamous school fire where he lost his sister, ad a Viet Nam Vet with PTSD. He is alive today although I don't see him anymore. He never wanted to commit suicide. I'm glad he didn't.

By the way, people said I was nuts to take him in-he was also a thief. But I remember his kindness to me. I wrote a short story about him that was almost published.
Annette

Annette, your posts intrique me. Good on you for getting involved. More people should have the guts.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi Danny,

We miss you here, at least I do. My frame of mind was different than usual at that time. I was told that I was going to die, so I thought, I may as well try to help someone. I felt no danger at the time, just a want to help if I could. A suicide is so awful to me, and especially as I thought my life was over, just maybe I could do something. Not in a million years did I'm expect the responses from Pat(that's his name) that I got.

It was my year of living dangerously. I also befriended a biker. The three of us had quite a time together in our separate problems. Amazingly, we all healed. It was an extraordinary time. Its nice to relive it. It was 30 yrs ago.

Hope you are good and well.

Annette

 

[OoohShiny]

Hi Danny,

We miss you here, at least I do. My frame of mind was different than usual at that time. I was told that I was going to die, so I thought, I may as well try to help someone. I felt no danger at the time, just a want to help if I could. A suicide is so awful to me, and especially as I thought my life was over, just maybe I could do something. Not in a million years did I'm expect the responses from Pat(that's his name) that I got.

It was my year of living dangerously. I also befriended a biker. The three of us had quite a time together in our separate problems. Amazingly, we all healed. It was an extraordinary time. Its nice to relive it. It was 30 yrs ago.

Hope you are good and well.

Annette

That's an awesome story

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, I guess!


re: the story this thread is based around, the news today is reporting she has been given 2.5 years jail (or gaol, if one is spelling it correctly lol).

I have no idea how I'd feel about that if I was the family involved and knew her in more depth (perhaps I would have sympathy for her because she might be a vulnerable, damaged person herself) but from this remote standpoint, I feel she has got off lightly.

 

[elle_71125]

Personally, I think she got off too light. 2.5 years probably feels like a slap in the face to that boys family.

However, I understand that this was a situation where she was morally wrong more than legally wrong. I guess I'm grateful she's going to prison at all (hopefully this won't be a "house arrest" sentence).

 

[FeFeV]

I completely agree with the verdict. A young sociopath identified and held accountable. Society likes to ignore how truly dangerous narcissists are when they're not being publicly exalted on a Kardashian level platform. She absolutely deserved to be found guilty.
MANY people receive hard prison time for planning and conspiring a crime (happens ALL the time in drug cases) rather they were present to commission said crime or not. IF this was a drug case she would have been given no less than 7 years. In the end her quintessential "good girl" face and blond hair saved her from truly fair punishment. May his family somehow find ease.

 

[FeFeV]

I saw a tv show about this last night. They said her motivation was attention she was seeking from girls she wanted to befriend. She wanted to use the sympathy card. "My boyfriend killed himself!" :'(
Roy's sisters said she was sobbing and making a scene at the front line of the wake/funeral. She also allegedly then tried to cover her tracks after she heard him take his last breath by texting him for hours afterward 'looking' for him. Her last text to him was, "delete our messages," or some such thing. They recovered their deleted texts.
I don't know how long she should serve, but she should be punished imo. His poor parents...She preyed on him and her motive seems self serving, not helping him be at peace.

I feel like everyone is conveniently ignoring all of the supporting details that she absolutely knew what she was doing was legally and morally wrong. She tried to cover her tracks afterwards. She went to the funeral and put on a performance, she deleted text history from her phone. This girl is a CRIMINAL period. Thank You for not being jaded @Sandeek

 

[Begonia]

She sickens me.

I have a 19 and a 15 year old son. It breaks my heart to hear how she used her power over him. Teen boys can be pretty vulnerable to young women and this young lad in particular was dealing with some serious mental health issues thus making him even more vulnerable.

I feel for the whole family, but as a mother, I feel mostly for the mom. I went to a bereavement support group where a mother who had lost her only child, a son, and she described it as though the novel of your life, all the chapters are suddenly blank. There should have been the graduating university chapter, the getting married chapter and most important, the having your own children chapter. All blank now.

She sickens me.

If any good has come of this it's that I hope we will all take those expressing the signs of depression and suicide more seriously. I know I will.

Talk to your boys.
Talk to your girls.
Hug them and tell them you love them.

 

[autumngems]

I think jail time is warranted, she knew what she was doing and I believe she also needs inpatient treatment

 

[mary poppins]

This case is back in the headlines as the parties had oral argument on appeal at the Massachusetts Judicial Supreme Court. Decision expected in the coming months.

Michelle Carter's lawyer says suicide texts did not force teen to kill himself
The young woman who sent texts telling her boyfriend to kill himself is appealing her involuntary manslaughter conviction to Massachusetts' highest court.
by Associated Press / Oct.04.2018 / 4:39 PM EDT

BOSTON — A woman who as a teenager encouraged her suicidal boyfriend to kill himself may have made bad choices but did not commit a crime, her lawyer told Massachusetts' highest court on Thursday.

Attorney Daniel Marx said Michelle Carter, now 22, was a misguided teen who was struggling with her own issues and had been trying to help Conrad Roy III. He said Roy was committed to ending his life and was responsible for his own death.

"We can all see from the text messages that Michelle Carter did not force Conrad Roy to kill himself," Marx told the Supreme Judicial Court. "It was a tragic decision that he made."

Carter was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in a trial last year that drew international attention due to the thorny legal questions and the insistent tone of her text messages to her boyfriend.

The day Roy filled his truck with carbon monoxide in a Fairhaven, Massachusetts, store parking lot, then 17-year-old Carter texted him: "You keep pushing it off and say you'll do it but u never do. It's always gonna be that way if u don't take action."

In convicting Carter, the judge, however, focused on how she told Roy to "get back in" after he climbed out of his truck as it was filling with the toxic gas and told her he was scared. The judge said Carter had a duty to call the police or Roy's family when she knew he was killing himself.

But the only evidence Carter instructed Roy to get back in the truck was a long, rambling text she sent to a friend two months later in which she called Roy's death her fault, Marx said. He also said there is no evidence Roy's life would have been saved if Carter had called for help.

Prosecutors say Carter pushed Roy over the edge, noting he had tried to kill himself several times before and backed out.

Assistant District Attorney Shosana Stern told the court that Carter knew she had "significant leverage" over Roy and became more insistent as he became more depressed. On the day of his death, Carter threatened that she was going to get him help if he didn't go through with his plan, Stern said.

"She knew he was terrified of ending up in the hospital and disappointing his family," Stern said.

Carter was sentenced to 15 months in jail, but has remained free while she pursues her appeal.

This is the second time Carter's case is before the state's high court. The court ruled in 2016 that Carter had to face trial, saying the grand jury was justified in indicting her with involuntary manslaughter.

The court is expected to rule in the coming months. When asked whether they would appeal the case to the U.S. Supreme Court if the justices don't rule in Carter's favor, Joseph Cataldo, another one of her attorneys, said they would consider all of their options.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...wyer-says-suicide-texts-did-not-force-n916776

 

[Bron357]

I think she is a truly horrible person but being young she probably didn’t think through her words / actions and the consequences.
He was suidical of his own accord and she apparently got sick of him talking about it all the time and told him to just get it over with and do it.
It wasn’t as if she was threatening him or blackmailing him into this action.
What’s interesting to me is how / why is this different to when kids “bully” someone by telling them are ugly, no one likes them and they are such a waste of space that they should go kill themselves? And they do.
Personally I think that is worse.
Does these bullies go to court, get charged/ sentenced with assisting a suicide? No, they might get a suspension or counselling but they don’t get “into huge trouble”.
That’s my take on it, in no way do I condo her actions or words, just like those bully kids who say mean horrible things to others, but is it a crime punishable by jail time ?

 

[mary poppins]

Conviction was upheld by the Massachusetts Supreme Court last week. Starting serving 15 months today. Attorney says they will appeal to U.S. Supreme Court.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/michelle-...ng-suicide-case-headed-jail/story?id=60991290

 

[missy]

Conviction was upheld by the Massachusetts Supreme Court last week. Starting serving 15 months today. Attorney says they will appeal to U.S. Supreme Court.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/michelle-...ng-suicide-case-headed-jail/story?id=60991290

Good. I hope that verdict is upheld. She deserves every bit of that jail sentence and more IMO. Her actions were egregious.

 

[partgypsy]

I think she deserves jail time. How much, I don't know. If it isn't illegal, it should be illegal, and there should be consequences. She wasn't even a random stranger on the internet but someone he trusted and confided in when he was extremely vulnerable. Instead of getting help for him she actively encouraged him to kill himself, to the point of when he changed his mind at the last minute ordering back into the car.