The texting suicide case, what do you think of the verdict?

[E B]

If it sounds like I'm going to bat for the girl, I'm not. I'm a mother and cannot fathom the heartbreak. And she clearly influenced his decision when he desperately needed help, which is beyond tragic. I just think that it's easier to assign clean blame in situations this painful because examining the shades of gray can add to the pain, but a good juror needs the whole picture. Where is the slam dunk evidence that she did this solely for attention? If it exists, it needs to be in the first paragraph of each article and that would be a game changer. And even if that were the case, the girl still clearly needs help, whether what she did was due to her own depression/suicidial ideations or a personality disorder.

 

[rainwood]

The charge was involuntary manslaughter, one commonly used if someone was drinking or speeding or something similar and a person other than the driver died in the resulting car or boat accident. The legal standard for involuntary manslaughter is "wanton and reckless conduct." The judge stated his decision to convict her on IM was not based on the texts but the last phone call where the young man apparently had a change of heart, got out of the truck, and she convinced him to get back in and stayed on the phone until he died. The phone call was not recorded so the contents of what each of them said were based on her descriptions of it to others (probably allowed into evidence as an admission against interest or something similar). People can differ on whether her behavior met the standard of wanton and reckless conduct, but that's the legal framework for the case.

And the standard for whether someone is competent to stand trial is whether the person knows the difference between right and wrong. Her texts to others seem to demonstrate she did. Mental issues not rising to the level of incompetence often come into play as part of sentencing, and I'm assuming the judge will do that here as well.

 

[lyra]

I think she is more likely a singularity, like the man who cyberbullied and emotionally abused Amanda Todd until she killed herself. He still hasn't come to justice, and neither have the others that participated. The laws have to catch up with the crime. I don't believe manslaughter was the right charge. I do believe this girl needs to be in a mental hospital though. Suicide is not illegal as far as I'm aware, although urging a person to commit suicide is an enforceable thing, but a lesser crime.

Ultimately, Roy made a decision that ended his life, by choice. He should have had treatment. How did everyone around him but this one girl, not notice that something was up with him? Not to blame anyone else, but I'm honestly curious. He may have made the same decision without her help too. At least now, she is a known quantity, and will have some consequences. But there will never be "justice" for a person who chose suicide. It was his choice unfortunately, and maybe she could have stopped him, maybe not. I hope she gets treatment and rehabilitation. Not just an appeal and zero treatment or consequences.

 

[whitewave]

He attempted once or twice before...

 

[Karl_K]

Here is what would have happened in IL.
http://www.srhunterlaw.com/Criminal-Code-of-1961-Article-25-Suicide-Related-Crimes

Class 2 felony is 3 to 7 years or in some cases 7 to 14 if the crime qualifies for an extended term and the judge applies it.

 

[Karl_K]

Sorry that's the old law the new one is here:
http://ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/il...hapterID=53&SeqStart=29700000&SeqEnd=30300000

(720 ILCS 5/12-34.5) (was 720 ILCS 5/12-31)
Sec. 12-34.5. Inducement to commit suicide.
(a) A person commits inducement to commit suicide when he or she does either of the following:
(1) Knowingly coerces another to commit suicide and

the other person commits or attempts to commit suicide as a direct result of the coercion, and he or she exercises substantial control over the other person through (i) control of the other person's physical location or circumstances; (ii) use of psychological pressure; or (iii) use of actual or ostensible religious, political, social, philosophical or other principles.
(2) With knowledge that another person intends to

commit or attempt to commit suicide, intentionally (i) offers and provides the physical means by which another person commits or attempts to commit suicide, or (ii) participates in a physical act by which another person commits or attempts to commit suicide.
For the purposes of this Section, "attempts to commit suicide" means any act done with the intent to commit suicide and which constitutes a substantial step toward commission of suicide.
(b) Sentence. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(1) when the other person commits suicide as a direct result of the coercion is a Class 2 felony. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(2) when the other person commits suicide as a direct result of the assistance provided is a Class 4 felony. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(1) when the other person attempts to commit suicide as a direct result of the coercion is a Class 3 felony. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(2) when the other person attempts to commit suicide as a direct result of the assistance provided is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) The lawful compliance or a good-faith attempt at lawful compliance with the Illinois Living Will Act, the Health Care Surrogate Act, or the Powers of Attorney for Health Care Law is not inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(2) of this Section.
(Source: P.A. 96-1551, eff. 7-1-11.)

 

[Arkteia]

To me, she is clearly mentally ill with narcissism and borderline disorders and likely sociopathy.

So I ambivalent about it all because I think she is mentally ill (and young) and she is clearly being made an example of in this age of electronic communication.

But I understand that her text messages are damning and expose her as really manipulating him as far as his death. That makes her dangerous to society.

I also noticed she had no tears when crying.

Would doubt about borderline as the reason to cause another person's death. Borderlines, while difficult to treat, are, if anything the helpers, the real helpers. Narcissism and malignant sociopathy would probably contribute more to both the detachment, and self-aggrandizing at the expense of others. However, this detachment of own emotions is probably more about thinking pattern than feeling. But I am starting to wonder if it is the function of the Internet era, when you theoretically understand what a person is feeling, but do not "feel" it, because "texting" creates the detachment factor. (Carter and Roy lived in one state, but one hour drive from one another).

Here. How would it sound if a person said it out loud, all what she wrote? And how angry she'd be with him if he would not kill himself?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/08/us/text-message-suicide-michelle-carter-conrad-roy/index.html

 

[Arkteia]

Sorry that's the old law the new one is here:
http://ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt.+12,+Subdiv.+25&ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=29700000&SeqEnd=30300000

(720 ILCS 5/12-34.5) (was 720 ILCS 5/12-31)
Sec. 12-34.5. Inducement to commit suicide.
(a) A person commits inducement to commit suicide when he or she does either of the following:
(1) Knowingly coerces another to commit suicide and

the other person commits or attempts to commit suicide as a direct result of the coercion, and he or she exercises substantial control over the other person through (i) control of the other person's physical location or circumstances; (ii) use of psychological pressure; or (iii) use of actual or ostensible religious, political, social, philosophical or other principles.
(2) With knowledge that another person intends to

commit or attempt to commit suicide, intentionally (i) offers and provides the physical means by which another person commits or attempts to commit suicide, or (ii) participates in a physical act by which another person commits or attempts to commit suicide.
For the purposes of this Section, "attempts to commit suicide" means any act done with the intent to commit suicide and which constitutes a substantial step toward commission of suicide.
(b) Sentence. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(1) when the other person commits suicide as a direct result of the coercion is a Class 2 felony. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(2) when the other person commits suicide as a direct result of the assistance provided is a Class 4 felony. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(1) when the other person attempts to commit suicide as a direct result of the coercion is a Class 3 felony. Inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(2) when the other person attempts to commit suicide as a direct result of the assistance provided is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) The lawful compliance or a good-faith attempt at lawful compliance with the Illinois Living Will Act, the Health Care Surrogate Act, or the Powers of Attorney for Health Care Law is not inducement to commit suicide under paragraph (a)(2) of this Section.
(Source: P.A. 96-1551, eff. 7-1-11.)

I wonder why MA does not have such a provision. Maybe they planned to legalize euthanasia and were tied in the legalities of tying all together. In fact, i believe Illinois's code formulates it nicely, and this article is very important. At one point I wondered why posting Internet instructions about suicide was not persecuted at the level of child pornography, as there clearly are enough people with sick mind to be engaged in it.

 

[kenny]

What do I think of the verdict?
The more I read the more I don't trust anything I originally thought.

It's a muddle.

I'm very glad I didn't have to make the call.

 

[MollyMalone]

E B, apparently no news outlet paid for daily copy of the trial transcript because I've not found the transcript (or any portion of it) posted online. Buzzfeed has the most complete account (albeit a rather disjointed one) of anything I've seen so far re the testimony from Michelle Carter's high school classmates & her exchanges of messages with them:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnas...read-testimony?utm_term=.rc2eZXL31#.lu15rpyoa

CNN's compilation of the major messages between Michelle Carter & Conrad Roy received into evidence:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/08/us/text-message-suicide-michelle-carter-conrad-roy/index.html

This summary includes some of the attachments, plus the video that Conrad made the month before he died (this was received into evidence)
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/06/michelle_carter_trial_in_days.html

Boston's Fox News station reprinted all the text messages (with times) between the two on the last day:
http://www.fox25boston.com/news/all...ter-and-conrad-roy-they-day-he-died/532942907
If you hit the blue You can read all the messages presented as evidence here, which appears right above the table presenting the last day's texts, a zip'd file with all of the message exhibits, not just those between Michelle and Conrad, will download.

 

[Arkteia]

Here is Wiki page "social media and suicide". Interesting, especially about pro-suicide media groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_and_suicide

 

[Arkteia]

I saw this was the motive presented by the prosecution (and mentioned a couple of times in this thread), but I didn't see how they came to it. Was there evidence I haven't seen (or missed somehow)?

I do think detachment can be pretty common in severe depression, though IAMAP.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnas...ning-arguments?utm_term=.ob0o0mVxo#.whMe4Y5oe

It is all written here, but i think her post on FB when she organized baseball game in honor of (deceased) Roy, stating "Lol I am getting famous" is telling enough.

These are mourning messages Carter was posting online for 4 months after Roy's suicide. "Such a beautiful soul gone too soon" after she told him to get back into CO-filled car.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrymp...f-then-tweeted?utm_term=.bhWpmlLDp#.cuV70p217

 

[Arkteia]

I saw this was the motive presented by the prosecution (and mentioned a couple of times in this thread), but I didn't see how they came to it. Was there evidence I haven't seen (or missed somehow)?

I do think detachment can be pretty common in severe depression, though IAMAP.

Not sure she had severe depression at that moment, she planned it so well, she had the energy, she sent messages to her friends two days before his suicide stating he had disappeared (he had not), and how would a text to her friend "I am not wearing a bra", sent on the night Roy died, or shortly thereafter, correlate with severe depression?

 

[E B]

MollyMalone, thank you. I couldn't get the collection of files to download but those transcripts are so hard to get through. Absolutely heartbreaking.

You're an attorney, right? What are your thoughts?

 

[Karl_K]

I wanted to think about it before posting my thoughts, as someone who has lost more than one loved one to suicide and more that attempted my first emotional reaction was she should get life in prison.
But on further thought I think that a couple years in prison followed by a lot of probation with mandatory metal health care is more just.
As to the legal issues it is hard to predict what will happen in appeals.
I think the charge fits the crime in absence of a specific provision.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

What she did is reprehensible, and she deserves to be an outcast for the rest of her life. I think the verdict will probably be overturned on appeal because the freedom of speech issue will be brought into the case.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

About 30 yrs ago there was a book that gained popularity called, "The Road Less Traveled", by a Christian Psychiatrist named M. Scott Peck. I enjoyed this book and went on to read another of his books called, "People of the Lie", which deals with the concept of evil. He gives us case histories of patients that he treated where he has found evil. He believes that evil cannot be treated in the psychiatric sense and it is a condition most psychiatrists don't even try to grapple with.

I think this girl is what Dr. Peck would describe as evil .

He gave 6 case histories and while it was so many years ago, I still remember the gist of one, as it horrified me.
Parents bought a young boy to see Dr. Peck, as they were concerned that their child wasn't functioning properly after the death of his older brother. who had committed suicide sometime in the past year. Dr. Peck described the mother as cold, and the father as ???.
As the young boy began to tell his story, Dr. Peck began to see that these parents were not really wanting to be parents, although they seemed to be concerned. He learned that the brother shot himself with a gun that his parents gave him. Dr. Peck was concerned with the young boy living with parents who didn't want to be parents.

It was the boys birthday and Dr. Peck asked what he received. He was told his parents gave him the gun that his brother committed suicide with.
Dr. Peck panicked and called an Aunt in another state to see if they would take the boy to live with them. They agreed and of course the boy wanted to go. The parents agreed. Dr Peck thought the parents were evil. They gave him that gun to repeat what the brother did.

Dr Peck, of course did a much better job than I, laying out the case. I recommend this book highly, plus if you are thinking of therapy, read the road less traveled.

This girl is evil. not mentally ill, per se. Keep her in jail.

Annette

 

[Matata]

I think she should be indicted for murder. If you talk someone into killing him/herself, regardless of the circumstances, it's the same IMO, as using any other type of weapon.

An acquaintance's 11 year old grandson hung himself in his bedroom last month after being relentlessly bullied on FB. Words can and do kill.

 

[AnnaH]

This is a tough one. So tragic.

Don't know much about this case but thought I heard that both the girl and boy received mental health services. Some don't, maybe can't, respond well to therapy. (Haven't heard anything about a diagnosis for this girl).

Of course, we are bound by law, but we have some really bad law. Legislators, imo, often pass laws with a knee jerk reaction, overlooking unintended consequences. Every moral failing shouldn't lead to incarceration. A boy is dead, so we are naturally outraged, but I'm unsure what the legal consequences should be, if any. Like others have stated, I lean toward free speech and personal responsibility, but I might be persuaded.

 

[Arkteia]

I wanted to think about it before posting my thoughts, as someone who has lost more than one loved one to suicide and more that attempted my first emotional reaction was she should get life in prison.
But on further thought I think that a couple years in prison followed by a lot of probation with mandatory metal health care is more just.
As to the legal issues it is hard to predict what will happen in appeals.
I think the charge fits the crime in absence of a specific provision.

I am very sorry, Karl, for what happened to your beloved ones and what you had to go through.

For Carter, I would like her to get some treatment to break through her emotional denseness. Not sure she will ever get it, but who knows.

But I also see a certain trend of Roy's parents to minimize their own fault. Several articles mention Roy growing up in an abusive home, where parents finally divorced, and it broke him. It is so easy to push all the blame on Carter; I do think that the parents share some guilt.

 

[Karl_K]

I am very sorry, Karl, for what happened to your beloved ones and what you had to go through.

For Carter, I would like her to get some treatment to break through her emotional denseness. Not sure she will ever get it, but who knows.

But I also see a certain trend of Roy's parents to minimize their own fault. Several articles mention Roy growing up in an abusive home, where parents finally divorced, and it broke him. It is so easy to push all the blame on Carter; I do think that the parents share some guilt.

Thank you.

lets see if I can express my thoughts in a way that is not a jumble.
I am a little leery of getting jumped on which is why I didn't post it earlier.

It is very complex, suicide is never simple.
I know that people like to blame one thing, one event or one person that makes it easier to accept but it is never that simple.
I don't believe she killed him(murder) she was likely not the primary cause of him committing suicide. She did however contribute to him doing it at that time and made no effort that I have heard of to prevent it. She acted with depraved indifference towards him in my opinion. There for I think the manslaughter conviction is appropriate. However the law is not based on whats appropriate but rather how the courts interpret the law(case law).

 

[monarch64]

Part of me really wants to believe that she honestly thought he'd be happier and at peace if he went through with it. I'd flesh out that thought, but it's late and I'm not feeling real articulate.

The fact that she was against him harming or killing himself at first leads me to think that it's possible she just became caught up in his world of depression, especially if she was anorexic/had issues herself. I don't know that those texts she sent him about getting back in the truck were necessarily taunting in the traditional sense, or that she felt murderous towards him. No one could know that. What I do think is that they were both kids with a lot of issues who got caught up in what may have seemed glamorous and worldly to them. We have all these cultural references (Romeo and Juliet anyone?) about young love and passion. I think it's easy to call this as a black or white issue when it seems like this was a many, many layered relationship that ultimately spun out of control.

I also want to throw out here that anorexics themselves don't really have a great grasp on the value of life. I mean, I've known women who legit didn't care what their parents were going through while they were 74 lbs and had been hospitalized several times, and they valued food restriction and control well above whether they lived or died. I think she was in a viscious cycle and so was he. Their mutual angst likely drew them together and ended up a toxic relationship that he didn't survive.

I don't think she killed him. I think this is a case of very complicated and messed up teenage brains, and hey, where the hell were their FAMILIES while all this was going on? Jeez, my mother used to basically toss my room and read notes/journals/etc. every time she could. Overprotective, sure. But she also discovered MY eating disorder and probably saved my life by doing so. I hated her at the time, and we still have a somewhat difficult relationship, but she was trying to be a good parent, at least.

There are a lot of holes in my arguments,obviously. Just offering my perspective and some thoughts on the matter. It's all very sad and disturbing, that's for sure. I think this girl was neglectful and irresponsible, but I don't think she's some evil monster. And honestly right now she's probably thinking about how much weight she'll lose in jail because the food is so bad and she'll have lots of time to work out. It sounds like I'm using her alleged ED as an excuse; I'm not. I'm trying to explain a little about the mentality from both personal experience and from interaction with other sufferers.

Finally--suicide is not something I don't know about nor take lightly, lest anyone think I'm being callous or cavalier about this case. It is serious and heartbreaking and I have so much compassion for anyone who has felt that darkness or lost someone to it.

 

[Arkteia]

Thank you.

lets see if I can express my thoughts in a way that is not a jumble.
I am a little leery of getting jumped on which is why I didn't post it earlier.

It is very complex, suicide is never simple.
I know that people like to blame one thing, one event or one person that makes it easier to accept but it is never that simple.
I don't believe she killed him(murder) she was likely not the primary cause of him committing suicide. She did however contribute to him doing it at that time and made no effort that I have heard of to prevent it. She acted with depraved indifference towards him in my opinion. There for I think the manslaughter conviction is appropriate. However the law is not based on whats appropriate but rather how the courts interpret the law(case law).

You know the situation when you were jumped on, actually, can illustrate what happens in online communications.
I was 99.9% positive that "that" post of yours was ironic, sarcastic, and that in real life, not online, people would have viewed it as such.

In an online posting, the intonation is missing, as to emoticons, some people use them, some don't. So maybe this detachment I was posting about re. Carter comes from online communication? Is it all because of texting?

Carter and Roy very seldom met in real life. All this communication was online; reading it reminded me "Dangerous liaisons", when the whole affair is described in letters (and like the letters were the final undoing of the Marquise de Merteuil, in Carter's case, the texts were the whole reason for the case).

I am thinking, what if they were sitting in one room instead, and Roy told her about suicide? Looking into his face, could Carter not feel the human pain? If she were standing next to the car, could she push him back when he tried to get out?

Is this whole horrible story the function of texting? The court prohibited her to use social media. Rightfully so. But are we going to see more and more of such situations because of the world our children are growing in? And they are the first generation that fully grew up online. How are they going to turn out? So far, as it seems, millennials are more impulsive, but also kinder, and such cases are anecdotal. But are we not seeing something in our children?

 

[Arkteia]

Part of me really wants to believe that she honestly thought he'd be happier and at peace if he went through with it. I'd flesh out that thought, but it's late and I'm not feeling real articulate.

The fact that she was against him harming or killing himself at first leads me to think that it's possible she just became caught up in his world of depression, especially if she was anorexic/had issues herself. I don't know that those texts she sent him about getting back in the truck were necessarily taunting in the traditional sense, or that she felt murderous towards him. No one could know that. What I do think is that they were both kids with a lot of issues who got caught up in what may have seemed glamorous and worldly to them. We have all these cultural references (Romeo and Juliet anyone?) about young love and passion. I think it's easy to call this as a black or white issue when it seems like this was a many, many layered relationship that ultimately spun out of control.

I also want to throw out here that anorexics themselves don't really have a great grasp on the value of life. I mean, I've known women who legit didn't care what their parents were going through while they were 74 lbs and had been hospitalized several times, and they valued food restriction and control well above whether they lived or died. I think she was in a viscious cycle and so was he. Their mutual angst likely drew them together and ended up a toxic relationship that he didn't survive.

I don't think she killed him. I think this is a case of very complicated and messed up teenage brains, and hey, where the hell were their FAMILIES while all this was going on? Jeez, my mother used to basically toss my room and read notes/journals/etc. every time she could. Overprotective, sure. But she also discovered MY eating disorder and probably saved my life by doing so. I hated her at the time, and we still have a somewhat difficult relationship, but she was trying to be a good parent, at least.

There are a lot of holes in my arguments,obviously. Just offering my perspective and some thoughts on the matter. It's all very sad and disturbing, that's for sure. I think this girl was neglectful and irresponsible, but I don't think she's some evil monster. And honestly right now she's probably thinking about how much weight she'll lose in jail because the food is so bad and she'll have lots of time to work out. It sounds like I'm using her alleged ED as an excuse; I'm not. I'm trying to explain a little about the mentality from both personal experience and from interaction with other sufferers.

Finally--suicide is not something I don't know about nor take lightly, lest anyone think I'm being callous or cavalier about this case. It is serious and heartbreaking and I have so much compassion for anyone who has felt that darkness or lost someone to it.

Monarch64, I fully agree with you. Roy grew up in the household where he was physically and emotionally abused and fell apart when his parents divorced (was it because of typical arrangements when a kid spends a week with one parent, and a week with the other? We may never know all the details). However, you can not undo the abuse. You can not undo the fact that the kid was so unhappy that he already tried suicide. He left a note... I think the parents feel so much inner guilt that in a way, they will always blame only Carter, because otherwise, how can one live with it?

Re. anorexia. It is such an old problem, all these medieval nuns who starved themselves and died, what was it but anorexia? At school, I had a book on endocrinology written in the 30-es. I still remember the chapter on so-called "nervous cachexia", a condition ascribed to endocrine disorder, ending up in death from wasting. (It is interesting that the authors underlined that the people "were not trying to lose weight", so those anorexic women had everyone fooled). And it was at the time when women's ideal body proportions were totally different from today, when models were rather plump and pretty, and when there was no societal pressure to lose weight because fast-processed-food chains were not even close.

I won't post recent research on anorexia done in London because it may not be understood correctly in a big forum. Suffice it to say that while anorexic women seem all emotions, they also have very logical, perfectionistic, abstract minds. It is about control, but also about perfection, with strong OCD component. (And then body dysmorphia, that comes from another cluster of problems).

People with anorexia, as you say, may not be placing high value on life, but usually, it is their own life that they are harming. I think lady Diana could be the epitome - incredibly struggling herself, but truly involved in helping others, and making a difference (and I think this is why she is so much liked). Statistic has shown that many online posts about suicide remain unnoticed... but if they do get noticed, who are usually the first ones to respond? The most active ones? Kids who have tons of problems themselves, borderlines, anorexics, depressed. (And actually for them, the helping role is probably the most curative). So this is where an old tape suddenly gets stick with Carter. So many things related to her behavior are typical, but one is not.

I think what Carter was also missing was morality. It is interesting because she was quite religious (and probably believed that Roy was going to a better place), but this case offers an interesting dichotomy between the two.

 

[valeria101]

Words kill; which do is to be determined from consequences ...

In discourtesy, I see a weapon that missfires often enough to confound itself with a game.

[from experience]

 

[missy]

Apologies because I didn't read the replies and just diving in here with my thoughts.

This young woman seems to lack a conscience (is that the definition of a psychopath or sociopath? I am not in the psychiatric field so cannot offer a medical diagnosis but will say that IMO YES she deserves to be prosecuted to the fullest extent the law will allow. What she did was WRONG.

On an ethical and moral level but also IMO on a legal level. What kind of society do we live in where this would be OK and not prosecuted? I cannot think of an analogy right now but if anyone remembers the movie The Accused with Jodie Foster. The men in the movie were prosecuted for standing by and allowing the rape to happen. So not the same thing but all I can think of atm and yes it was just a movie but it was based on a real life event (though I believe it took place in Canada) but indulge me for a moment. Verbal harassment is a form of violence and can and should be prosecuted when bad things happen as a result of that verbal harassment.

Not only did this woman know about this young man's suicidal wishes but she helped him carry them out by urging him on and encouraging him and yes goading him into it. NOT OK and actions have consequences. It is critical that we show in this country yes, actions do have consequences and the price must be paid. She is guilty and while she did not pull the so called trigger she might as well have. She could have at any point in time told his family what was going on. Instead she did her very best to make sure he carried out his death wish. So while I am not in the law profession or psychiatric profession this is my lay person's opinion.

 

[Maria D]

Both of these teens were on anti-depressants that can cause dangerously adverse effects on teens. What responsibility do their psychiatrists and the drug companies bear?

 

[Jambalaya]

Missy - I just wanted to return that hugs to me that you posted on the happiness thread! (((Missy)))

By the way, the events of The Accused happened in Massachusetts, in a place called New Bedford. The bar where it happened was razed to the ground and the victim unfortunately died in a road crash three years after the rape. Very sad. I became interested in the case after the movie was released.

About this case, I lean toward free speech and personal responsibility, too. No one who isn't already very suicidal can be made to do it by someone sending texts (as opposed to someone being very threatening and coercive in person, say). I just keep going back to the fact that he physically died by his own hand, not by Carter's hand, instead of going to the ER or calling 911. If you call 911 and say you're dangerously close to killing yourself, they rush to your aid. This happened to a family member.

The verdict says that words can kill, which is crazy. If you tell someone to go to hell, are you inciting them to kill themselves?

I'm also not sure how a guilty verdict was returned when Massachusetts has no law against encouraging someone to commit suicide.

About Carter herself, I have no idea about her psychological profile. I suspect it's very complicated.

I agree that people who do bad things should be punished, in a moral sense - and what Carter did was completely outrageous. But we have to go by the law, and again, you can't legislate against being a thoroughly nasty person. What about adult kids who never, ever bother with their sick and elderly parents? What about friends who let down the bereaved? The victims of these behaviors may not feel much like living, either, because of the emotional cruelty from those close. It might even contribute to suicides in those groups, or at least go a long way to helping take away their happiness, joy in life, and chances of recovery. These are intensely nasty actions with some serious consequences for the targets, yet we don't think of legislating against those behaviors. It's not illegal to be a horrible person, but perhaps it should be - I wish it was!

 

[Maria D]

I cannot think of an analogy right now but if anyone remembers the movie The Accused with Jodie Foster. The men in the movie were prosecuted for standing by and allowing the rape to happen. So not the same thing but all I can think of atm and yes it was just a movie but it was based on a real life event ...

I don't know about the movie, but in real life four men were convicted of actual rape, not of being bystanders to a rape.

 

[Arkteia]

It is interesting, I read somewhere "she will get her comeuppance- by a man".

I disagree. Least of all do I want to have one more person in our socierty being harassed, abused and living in fear... This is not karma, this is promoting more violence. But I want her to understand that someone else 's life is not her toy. That she can not self -aggrandize at someone's expense. I want it to become a learning case in schools. I want her to feel intense remorse.

She very much reminds me the hero of another book, the French one, written by Francoise Sagan. In is called "Bonjour, tristesse" - https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0061440795/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497887074&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=francoise+sagan+english&dpPl=1&dpID=51s8+EWgAYL&ref=plSrch. Published in 1954, coming-of-age novel, about another manipulator. It is very interesting that Sagan was 18 when she wrote it. Perhaps age has something to do with it. Written in a less sexually liberating time, without the Inet, it is somehow close to this story. Very interesting