The Supreme Court just further eroded the separation between Church and State

[Calliecake]

The Supreme Court just further eroded the separation of church and state in the case of praying on the football field. In my opinion this is just WRONG.

This coach made a spectacle of himself praying on the football field. He lost in the lower courts and here we have the supreme courts siding with the coach.

We are all screwed. Religion will be back in public schools. Gay rights and contraception are probably next in their list.

Anyone who believes this court will not try to eliminate Roe vs Wade completely and make it the law of the entire country try has their head in the sand.

I’m venting because I can’t believe what is happening to our country.

 

[Matata]

I thought I was out of nails to spit but I was wrong.

 

[Calliecake]

I thought I was out of nails to spit but I was wrong.

You aren’t alone @Matata.

It’s enough to make you wonder what they have in store for us tomorrow. They sure do seem to be on a roll with push their religion down our throats.

I’m glad RBG isn’t alive to see this. They are now going further than stepping on our necks.

 

[TooPatient]

This was local-ish to me. If I remember correctly, he prayed alone after games. Some students chose to join him after he had been doing it alone for some time (years?). I'm not sure this would be considered a spectacle and, as someone who is generally uncomfortable with prayers at schools and school events, i don't remember being bothered by this when the details originally came out. There may be more to it than I remember, but the way it was spoken of in the area, it seemed like banning what he did would amount to banning all prayer within view of anyone. While I don't support the one, I feel that getting too strict in bans is also unhealthy.

 

[Matata]

Excerpted from FOX news article, bolding added by me:
"He began the practice of reciting a post-game prayer by himself, but eventually students started joining him. According to court documents, this evolved into motivational speeches that included religious themes. After an opposing coach brought it to the principal's attention, the school district told Kennedy to stop. He did, temporarily, then notified the school that he would resume the practice.
The school district then offered to let Kennedy pray in other locations before and after games, or for him to pray on the 50-yard line after everyone else had left the premises, but he refused, insisting that he would continue his regular practice. After continuing the prayers at two more games, the school district placed Kennedy on leave."

There is an imbalance of power between the coach and players. The coach is an authority figure who decides who plays and who doesn't. One of the responsibilities of an employee is to avoid the appearance of bias and abuse of authority. This is a standard expectation in employment at which the coach thumbed his nose. The games were over but the coach is on the clock until the locker room is empty and the team members have left the building. Regardless of his actual intent, his actions created the appearance of abuse of authority.
IMO, the SCOTUS made a terrible mistake with its ruling.

 

[Matata]

P.S. I'm looking forward to the time when a coach belonging to the Church of Satan prays to Baphomet on the 50 yd line, or a wiccan or pagan of any flavor.

 

[Beagles]

P.S. I'm looking forward to the time when a coach belonging to the Church of Satan prays to Baphomet on the 50 yd line, or a wiccan or pagan of any flavor.

Or a Muslim. Imagine the pearl clutching!

 

[Lookinagain]

I agree that it is wrong. Religion does not belong in public schools. Period. And a coach is an authority figure and who knows if some of these kids who joined him didn't feel compelled to do so for other than religious reasons, maybe fear that they would be left out of the line up of the next game. These were young people. And quietly or not, it's a public school. The motivational speech with religious overtones is worse, but for me, not the deciding factor. How about the kids who were not Christian, which I assume he was. What if this was a teacher in a classroom? I totally do not support his right to do this while he is on the public payroll in a public school situation. That's not what I want to pay taxes for.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

when i was at high school (state school) we had a prayer before every assembly (this was in the 80s so i doubt it would happen now)
i don't remember anyone complaining about it

 

[foxinsox]

when i was at high school (state school) we had a prayer before every assembly (this was in the 80s so i doubt it would happen now)
i don't remember anyone complaining about it

They definitely would now - NZ is one of the most secular countries around. I was high school in the 90s at a state school too and there were definitely no prayers. We did have a school song that’s prayer-adjacent imo (Jerusalem) but no religious trappings otherwise.

 

[Mreader]

 

[Mreader]

I have no faith anymore in SCOTUS - first the ruling on guns, then Roe v. Wade, then this bullshit. They are a bunch of religious zealots who should never be seated in what’s considered the highest court in the land. We need term limits!!!! It shouldn’t be a lifetime appt anymore. When this was first enacted people weren’t living into their 80s and 90s. I’m furious.

 

[House Cat]

I wonder if these people realize that they are pushing people AWAY from the church, not towards it.

 

[stracci2000]

Before COVID, I was required to attend a large bi-annual retail event in the biggest red state. The CEO of that company would hold a short prayer meeting before the event, and we were all supposed to gather around for this prayer huddle. Apparently, it never occured to this pompous guy that some people in the crowd might not be Christian.
It made me very uncomfortable. I am no longer required to attend this event, and I won't miss it.

 

[OreoRosies86]

when i was at high school (state school) we had a prayer before every assembly (this was in the 80s so i doubt it would happen now)
i don't remember anyone complaining about it

Just because no one complained doesn’t mean they weren’t uncomfortable. People can pray on their own time if they want to, I certainly don’t want it in my child’s public school.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Just because no one complained doesn’t mean they weren’t uncomfortable. People can pray on their own time if they want to, I certainly don’t want it in my child’s public school.

well im just saying
and school kids are pretty vocal at displaying their plessure over something
plus it was 35 odd years ago
we had plenty of other things to think about that being offended by a short prayer once a week

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

They definitely would now - NZ is one of the most secular countries around. I was high school in the 90s at a state school too and there were definitely no prayers. We did have a school song that’s prayer-adjacent imo (Jerusalem) but no religious trappings otherwise.

at internediate every 2nd week we had a religious assembly where each class took turns putting on a play
i remember we did the 10 commandments (1983 i think)
it was huge fun
i don't remember any other religious instruction - it was just drama
seems a bit out there now
at primary school in standard one a lady used to come in to do bible study for a term
i guess the teacher enjoyed the rest

but that's it as far as religion went in my education
my friend who went to Catholic high school at the same time was learning about other religions in religious education - that used to fascinate me

 

[telephone89]

well im just saying
and school kids are pretty vocal at displaying their plessure over something
plus it was 35 odd years ago
we had plenty of other things to think about that being offended by a short prayer once a week

This is a really gross and disappointing view from you Daisy. YOUR religious beliefs do not extend to a single other person, and people aren't "complaining" when bringing this up.
If you really can't see how someone of a different faith (or lack of) may have felt and just scoff it off as "offended" and "complaining", do some research please.

 

[missy]

Apparently, it never occured to this pompous guy that some people in the crowd might not be Christian.

People like that don't care. It might have occurred to him or it might not have (as they are the center of the universe don't you know). But either way he wouldn't care. I guarantee it.

 

[missy]

well im just saying
and school kids are pretty vocal at displaying their plessure over something
plus it was 35 odd years ago
we had plenty of other things to think about that being offended by a short prayer once a week

You know Daisy, with all due respect, those in the minority might be afraid to speak up. No one wants to draw attention to themselves for something like this. No one wants to be persecuted. No one wants to have to say hey wait. This isnt OK. So they suck it up. You will have to take my word for that. I have done it myself on occasion. Sometimes you just keep your mouth shut. Unpleasant as it may be.

 

[Rhea]

100% what @missy said.

In high school a couple of our sports coaches did prayers before meets. I put up with it for years despite having a close a Jewish and a close Hindu friend. They got an out, though I imagine they were very uncomfortable even with that, because they were outwardly religious in actions or had a different skin color. I didn't feel I could walk away being a sweet, little white kid who was brought up in the bible belt. In my 4th year I finally took action and started walking away from prayer huddles only to be asked why. Kids don't speak up, as a 1st year I didn't want to be cast out, by my 4th year I didn't care. It was really uncomfortable though.

 

[Ally T]

when i was at high school (state school) we had a prayer before every assembly (this was in the 80s so i doubt it would happen now)
i don't remember anyone complaining about it

Ditto. My high school was a public school with no specific religious attachment or teaching (other than general religious studies of all faiths), but we still said the Lords Prayer before each assembly. My eldest is at a similar school now & they also say the Lords Prayer in assembly. Idk why? But it never bothered me despite not being a religious person or a believer in God.

I chose not to join in with the words (as did many children at the time) & my school respected that. I believe it is the same for my eldest now - it's a personal choice. The world is far more diverse than it was when I was a kid, and I know there are many children at my daughters school of many different faiths. They are each respected for who they are.

Religious or not, it is very wrong to push your beliefs onto others.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

well im just saying
and school kids are pretty vocal at displaying their plessure over something
plus it was 35 odd years ago
we had plenty of other things to think about that being offended by a short prayer once a week

I think certain things mean more to some than others and consequently upset some more than others.

My son was offered a scholarship at an Anglican private school. He would have had to take religious classes. My husband (an ex catholic who doesn't buy into religion) was quite wary about it but I was like "Hell yes, it's a good insurance policy and we save a fortune, we're taking the scholarship."

For me, you just rock up to religious classes, be polite and save a fortune each year. No big deal. He's got stronger views about religion and is sensitive about what is being taught.

Long story but kid didn't end up needing the scholarship so it was not an issue in the end.

 

[Lookinagain]

I’m sorry but prayer does not belong in the public schools or for that matter anywhere else where everyone’s tax dollars go in support. We’re supposed to have a separation of church and state here. When I was very young in first grade they used to say a prayer every morning until the Supreme Court decided that that was unconstitutional. Now the current court has decided that it is not. I do not understand how allowing prayer in a publicly supported school that gets federal funding does not violate the anti-establishment clause. In my mind federal funds that go to support any religion is a violation of that clause. And regardless a teacher who picks their own religious prayer to speak in a classroom that might be comprised of children of many different faiths is just wrong anyway. Just my opinion.

 

[redwood66]

This is an interesting article about freedom of religion and freedom from religion. I don't want to subject or be required to adhere to any religion, no matter what it is. But I also don't want to hinder anyone's practice of their religion as long as they're not making it a requirement for me or others to participate.

What Is the Freedom From Religion vs. Freedom of Religion Myth?

Freedom of religion, if it is going to apply to everyone, also requires freedom from religion. Know the extent and limits of these rights.

www.learnreligions.com

 

[telephone89]

This is an interesting article about freedom of religion and freedom from religion. I don't want to subject or be required to adhere to any religion, no matter what it is. But I also don't want to hinder anyone's practice of their religion as long as they're not making it a requirement for me or others to participate.

What Is the Freedom From Religion vs. Freedom of Religion Myth?

Freedom of religion, if it is going to apply to everyone, also requires freedom from religion. Know the extent and limits of these rights.

www.learnreligions.com

Thank you for sharing. This is a great quote from that article, bolded by me:

"It’s no coincidence that people who object to the principle of “freedom from religion” are adherents of religious groups whose doctrines or standards would be the ones enforced by the state.

Since they already voluntarily accept these doctrines or standards, they don’t expect to experience any conflicts with state enforcement or endorsement. What you have, then, is a failure of moral imagination: these people are unable to really imagine themselves in the shoes of religious minorities who don’t voluntarily accept these doctrines or standards and, hence, experience an infringement on their religious liberties through state enforcement or endorsement.

That, or they simply don’t care what religious minorities experience because they think they have the One True Religion. Having never experienced social or legal restrictions on expressing their faith, they may not realize their privileged position."

 

[Matata]

But I also don't want to hinder anyone's practice of their religion as long as they're not making it a requirement for me or others to participate.

Aye there's the rub. I don't have an issue with religious garb. I do have an issue with public proselytizing and public prayer. Proselytizing is encouraged and in some cases required as a tenet of some religions. It is an invasion of my personal space and privacy when I'm approached on the street by a stranger trying to hand me religious literature or when the stranger feels compelled to tell me Jesus loves me. I am angered by hearing someone at the table next to me in a restaurant praying aloud. I've never said aloud in a restaurant "I ain't praying and I'm not a believer."

I don't feel compelled to make public the fact that I'm not religious. Maybe I'm being unreasonable expecting believers to be polite in public and sensitive to the fact others may not appreciate overt religious displays. Those engaging in public displays of religion are forcing me to participate. There is an arrogance that pervades believers who feel so protected by the law that they feel they can impose their religious beliefs and practices on others with impunity.

The issue can be resolved by a law requiring religious practices to be confined to recognized places of worship and to private property.

 

[redwood66]

Aye there's the rub. I don't have an issue with religious garb. I do have an issue with public proselytizing and public prayer. Proselytizing is encouraged and in some cases required as a tenet of some religions. It is an invasion of my personal space and privacy when I'm approached on the street by a stranger trying to hand me religious literature or when the stranger feels compelled to tell me Jesus loves me. I am angered by hearing someone at the table next to me in a restaurant praying aloud. I've never said aloud in a restaurant "I ain't praying and I'm not a believer."

I don't feel compelled to make public the fact that I'm not religious. Maybe I'm being unreasonable expecting believers to be polite in public and sensitive to the fact others may not appreciate overt religious displays. Those engaging in public displays of religion are forcing me to participate. There is an arrogance that pervades believers who feel so protected by the law that they feel they can impose their religious beliefs and practices on others with impunity.

The issue can be resolved by a law requiring religious practices to be confined to recognized places of worship and to private property.

But that is the rub. You don't have the right to not see someone else practicing their religion. That was the point of the paragraph in the link I posted.

Limits of Freedom From Religion​

Freedom from religion does not mean, as some mistakenly seem to claim, being free from seeing religion in society. No one has the right not to see churches, religious expression, and other examples of religious belief in our nation—and those who advocate freedom of religion do not claim otherwise.

 

[Matata]

But that is the rub. You don't have the right to not see someone else practicing their religion. That was the point of the paragraph in the link I posted.

There is this thing called denial and I am deep in it

 

[redwood66]

There is this thing called denial and I am deep in it

I didn't mean to laugh at you. It just made me giggle a bit.