The reason why GIA should add the SI3 grade

[david b]

Good Morning,
I happened to check a GIA J SI2 diamond for a client lately and had the opportunity to raise this issue.

The GIA SI2 range is so big that there are diamonds that are 100% eye clean and others where the SI2 is obviously visible to the naked eye. So when thinking of a GIA SI2 you are never sure will it be eye clean or not.

One obvious solution is to ask the seller and to look at the diamond's picture.
When you see an SI2 that is too cheap-maybe this will be the reason.

See the big black inclusion near the center:

 

[Lorelei]

Hi David,

I'm really surprised too that was awarded SI2, looks more like it should be I1 or lower to me - I'm not a grader, just a consumer and that's a good thing to be aware of with you showing this example. I can see the comments that are going to follow because of the diamond's proportions, just be warned! Most are all about the cut and proportion analysis here.

 

[YoLaL]

Good morning!
Is that a big crystal inclusion in near the center?
I notice the crystal inclusion is not really near in the center base on the plot.
Hmmm .

 

[david b]

Loreli
Well. it was about clarity , it is not that bad, don't forget the picture is magnifyed a lot

 

[david b]

Only "magnified" sorry!

 

[flyingpig]

Good morning!
Is that a big crystal inclusion in near the center?
I notice the crystal inclusion is not really near in the center base on the plot.
Hmmm .

Yea.
Is this the right GIA report for the diamond? The appearance and light reflection patterns are not what I expect from 63TB/29CA/42.6PA

 

[Lorelei]

Loreli
Well. it was about clarity , it is not that bad, don't forget the picture is magnifyed a lot

I know, I just wanted to warn you, it's good to have you here and lovely to have new trade members!

 

[blueMA]

GIA has been softening standards lately. I have a real trouble finding decent eye-clean SI1 nowadays, and it wasn't like that just 10 years ago. Even many VS2 are like the past SI1, and I can't even order VS1 blind anymore.

 

[sledge]

Ugh. Just had this conversation yesterday with a GIA gemologist the other day. We both agreed the range is too wide; however, neither of us thought an SI3 was the solution. In fact, cheaper mall stores do label some of their stones as SI3's. Personally I wish they would tighten the standards a little.

Granted, the image you shared was magnified, but it was pretty ugly. IMO, not in the SI family but my eyes are not nearly as trained as some of the experts here.

 

[the_mother_thing]

At a smidge over $10K for a +2ct diamond ... I guess all one can say is ‘you get what you pay for’.

As a consumer, I’m not so sure I’d agree with adding an SI3 clarity grade for the following reasons:

• Everyone’s idea/perception/tolerances of ‘eye-cleanliness’ is different. Someone with eagle eyes will spot things in a VS2/SI1 that I’d struggle to find with a loupe. I might find an SI1 to be eye clean, while someone else might find a VS2 to not be eye clean. For these reasons, I think GIA’s range of what makes each clarity grade makes sense, even if it appears to some as somewhat broad.
• I always thought ‘I’-clarity grades = “not eye clean”, so why is it necessary to add another grade in the SI-range for this?
• I generally assume any VS diamond is more likely than not ‘eye-clean’, and any ‘SI’ diamond less likely to be ‘eye clean’ (though I know there are some out there that do pass the eye-clean test for some folks).
• If I were in the market to buy a diamond that was graded SI2, or if I were selling one graded by GIA to be SI2, I’d now be wondering, “well, is it really SI2, or would GIA now call it an SI3”. How much is it really worth/should I pay, etc?
• Do jewelers really want consumers insisting that any SI2 diamond graded before the supposed introduction of SI3 be re-graded to confirm it’s still an SI2? Because we - consumers - shouldn’t be over-paying for clarity if it’s not the right grade. And does that mean that some diamonds graded I1 might now be ‘bargains’ for consumers because they might actually be SI3s?

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree with those who feel like the pic and the plot don't seem to match...but
Having said that, I've seen too many cases where the plot on a GIA report seemed very difficult to correlate with the actual diamond.
Also- a magnified photo is pretty much useless in determining if a stone is eye clean.

As far as the grade- clearly it's confusing to consumers looking for an eye clean stone- but keep in mind not all VS2 diamonds are eye clean.
It keeps those of us whose job it is to evaluate diamonds in a job.
But really- clarity grading is a skill that requires a holistic look at the stone- and IMO, that's in the consumer's interest.

Just had this conversation yesterday with a GIA gemologist the other day.

To clarify- were you speaking with the GIA, or someone who works for a jewelry store?

 

[oldminer]

The SI and I grades are not determined by any subjective measure of "eye-visibility of inclusions". It might be a great idea as a talking point, but it is not the idea used by GIA. GIA uses a system that often defies our limited understanding of what they are doing in their lab. While GIA teaches clarity grading, one must keep in mind that the grading they teach applies to the rather small sample diamonds they use to teach the basics of the subject. Only those who have worked inside the GIA lab have further information taught to them about the realities of grading larger diamonds. We know the rules of grading are modified as diamonds increase in size, but we have very little written information from GIA on the exact methodology. They don't like to share the details of what they really do in the lab. Can't say I blame them for keeping their business secrets of success to themselves. It is a capitalistic model.

Making "eye-visiblity" of inclusions a distinct and clear demarcation point between SI1 and SI2, or between SI2 and I1 or SI3 does make some sense in a vacuum. I have written on this subject thirty years ago, so it is not something new, but it is simply not the GIA system of clarity grading. Anything GIA would do now to rock the fragile boat of the diamond business would be very unwelcome by those who have huge sums invested in inventories of diamonds. It would shake lenders to their core if GIA altered the game with a thoughtless stroke of change when it would not benefit or secure the business. Such a meaningful change might seem a good one to an outside observer or a consumer, but it could be a devastating change financially. There is little doubt in my mind that there are some improvements that could be made to clarity grading that would help all diamond graders to be more in line with one another, but there is a large body of change resistant participants who have great influence over the GIA business model who would object very strongly and they would likely prevent such changes if they felt there is a financial downside consequence.

When I began in the diamond business, nearly no one wanted a GIA document on anything below a VS2. Most diamonds being graded were VS1 and better. No one anticipated the common grading of Si1 and lower diamonds at any lab, but we are now well into that phase of business. The system was created for high color and high clarity stones with far less thought about lesser ones. It would be a great time to make some meaningful changes from SI2 and down, but one must look at the size and value of any fallout from thoughtless alterations of the status quo. Diamond dealers look at each diamond, analyze the value based on the diamond itself along with the grading on any documents, look at their costs and then arrive at their asking price. Nothing about changing any grading system will alter the admonition we often make to "buy the diamond, not the paper".

If a particular diamond has too much inside it, then buy one which is a little better inside. Find the one which suits your goals and whatever the paper says choose to honor it, ignore it or condemn it. It changes nothing about the diamond and that's what it is all about.

 

[sledge]

To clarify- were you speaking with the GIA, or someone who works for a jewelry store?

His current role was a diamond buying expert for a local jeweler. I didn't realize any of this until midstream in the conversation and he mentioned at one point he did work for GIA and was also a certified GIA gemologist. Super nice guy and loved to show off his finest diamonds. He got all giddy and showed me an IF they had in the store -- too his credit, it was beautiful.

 

[blueMA]

I went to all local jewelry stores and was horrified by the terrible quality SI stone selections with inflated price tags. Few stores even carry VS stones in stock anymore, especially for decent sized pair of earrings. I ended up choosing the online route after several local stores failed to find decent stones even after having them shipped to them (mostly from NY). Understandably, I'm a very discerning shopper who is used to H&A stones, but I don't think I'll even bother looking locally anymore because it's easier to find ideal cut stones to desired specs online nowadays. With technological advancement there's always creative destruction, but to evolve one must adapt and embrace change.

 

[Rockdiamond]

certified GIA gemologist

Hi Sledge- pet peeve here.....
There is no such a thing as a "GIA certified gemologist"
The issue is that many consumers are misled by people who have taken GIA courses- and use them to convince consumers that somehow their actions are "certified" ( or approved of) by GIA

IMO, the person who told you they worked at GIA should have made this distinction clear.

But again- nothing personal- or even against the guy who used the term.
After many years and literally hundreds of cases of people being confused by that exact term, I am vigilant

 

[david b]

I know, I just wanted to warn you, it's good to have you here and lovely to have new trade members!

 

[david b]

Thank you Lorelei!

 

[david b]

I went to all local jewelry stores and was horrified by the terrible quality SI stone selections with inflated price tags. Few stores even carry VS stones in stock anymore, especially for decent sized pair of earrings. I ended up choosing the online route after several local stores failed to find decent stones even after having them shipped to them (mostly from NY). Understandably, I'm a very discerning shopper who is used to H&A stones, but I don't think I'll even bother looking locally anymore because it's easier to find ideal cut stones to desired specs online nowadays. With technological advancement there's always creative destruction, but to evolve one must adapt and embrace change.

 

[blueMA]

@david b, you can simply put your culsor after/below the end quote when you type a reply. I'm sure you'll figure it out soon how. Also when you highlight a sentence, it'll pop up the quote&reply option.

 

[david b]

BlueMA,

Yes, everyone knows today that the online stores have much more to offer besides the lower price.
Huge instant inventory, self sorting function
Magnified videos to see exactly how the SI looks
And even more important, we do not waist our most precious resource-TIME!

David

 

[blueMA]

BlueMA,

Yes, everyone knows today that the online stores have much more to offer besides the lower price.
Huge instant inventory, self sorting function
Magnified videos to see exactly how the SI looks
And even more important, we do not waist our most precious resource-TIME!

David

Unfortunately not everyone, and most are still afraid to make such large transactions online. I myself had to convince my husband, who is all too familiar with white collar crimes, before going online. Most people get sales pitched by local jewelers and spend high dollars on limited lackluster selections.

 

[david b]

BlueMA,
BlueMA,

Everyone should know that the client with a CC payment online is called Transaction where client is not present, same as phone order.

If the merchant was fraudulent or the customer got "not as advertise" or did not get anything and he compliant to the CC issuer first step is that they charge back the merchant and reimburse the customer, before even getting into the details.
The ones that are responsible for any fraudulent customer is us the vendors, just lately we sent a nice 0.70 GIA F VS1 to a stolen CC charge and we were charged back with no arguments, we did not check the transaction and sent it to an unknown person and address.


Bottom line, when you buy diamond engagement ring online the vendor is exposed to chargebacks but the customer is protected.


Furthermore! Today more and more customers finish their purchase over the cell.

David

 

[blueMA]

BlueMA,
BlueMA,

Everyone should know that the client with a CC payment online is called Transaction where client is not present, same as phone order.

If the merchant was fraudulent or the customer got "not as advertise" or did not get anything and he compliant to the CC issuer first step is that they charge back the merchant and reimburse the customer, before even getting into the details.
The ones that are responsible for any fraudulent customer is us the vendors, just lately we sent a nice 0.70 GIA F VS1 to a stolen CC charge and we were charged back with no arguments, we did not check the transaction and sent it to an unknown person and address.


Bottom line, when you buy diamond engagement ring online the vendor is exposed to chargebacks but the customer is protected.


Furthermore! Today more and more customers finish their purchase over the cell.

David

A lot of vendors also offer wire transfer discounts, but yes I insist on using credit cards for such protection.

 

[david b]

Yes, absolutely, only returning customers will dare.....

 

[sledge]

I went to all local jewelry stores and was horrified by the terrible quality SI stone selections with inflated price tags. Few stores even carry VS stones in stock anymore, especially for decent sized pair of earrings. I ended up choosing the online route after several local stores failed to find decent stones even after having them shipped to them (mostly from NY). Understandably, I'm a very discerning shopper who is used to H&A stones, but I don't think I'll even bother looking locally anymore because it's easier to find ideal cut stones to desired specs online nowadays. With technological advancement there's always creative destruction, but to evolve one must adapt and embrace change.

Agree @blueMA. It's just frustrating & disappointing. I can't stand the sales pitches, bad information or just plain sleazy sales tactics. Only thing worst is used car or furniture shopping (ugh, just did this).

Hi Sledge- pet peeve here.....
There is no such a thing as a "GIA certified gemologist"
The issue is that many consumers are misled by people who have taken GIA courses- and use them to convince consumers that somehow their actions are "certified" ( or approved of) by GIA

IMO, the person who told you they worked at GIA should have made this distinction clear.

But again- nothing personal- or even against the guy who used the term.
After many years and literally hundreds of cases of people being confused by that exact term, I am vigilant

My apologies @Rockdiamond. I wasn't aware you couldn't obtain your certification through GIA. I figured it consisted of some course work and a series of focused certifications but I did not realize it was not an accredited type certification system that GIA backed.

Too bad...the guy was super nice and very smart.

@david b, you can simply put your culsor after/below the end quote when you type a reply. I'm sure you'll figure it out soon how. Also when you highlight a sentence, it'll pop up the quote&reply option.

Just wait until he figures out the multi-quote function.

Unfortunately not everyone, and most are still afraid to make such large transactions online. I myself had to convince my husband, who is all too familiar with white collar crimes, before going online. Most people get sales pitched by local jewelers and spend high dollars on limited lackluster selections.

As you know, we found my girl's setting at Jared's. OMG. They have given us their sales pitch and she has gobbled it down and asked for seconds. They had her at lifetime warranty, etc. She has no idea I am using them for inspiration only and about to throw up in my mouth listening to them.

The sad part is she may not realize the true awesomeness of a custom DK setting & BGD H&A diamond I have actually picked.

A lot of vendors also offer wire transfer discounts, but yes I insist on using credit cards for such protection.

It's a nominal 1-3% discount depending where. At least it's not like the furniture stores who give you a BETTER discount for using their credit card. No, you didn't misread that. Oh, and they give you 18 months zero interest. For the "house" to offer such terms, how many people you think fall prey to that trap? My guess is the majority. I took the deal and will use their money interest free, but my bill will be paid in 18 months or less.

Back to your main point, sometimes it is worth asking for a discount. Some vendors may offer a few percent off if you express a little kindness and interest in their world.

 

[WinkHPD]

GIA should NOT add the SI3 grade. Tom Tashey started it with EGL Los Angeles many years ago and it caught on with a lot of wholesalers and retailers. It was okay at first, then became horribly abused as both wholesalers and retailers used it to sell clearly I1 goods for more than they could get for an honest I1.

It might have been a good thing had it stayed within the parameters it was designed with, but just like today's grade creep, once you lower your standards, it is hard to ever get them back up...

Wink

 

[yssie]

Ignoring the (quite interesting) discussion...

Ditto @flyingpig - that proportions combo would not yield that table reflection. If that’s the right report for that stone I’ll eat my stockings

 

[blueMA]

GIA should NOT add the SI3 grade. Tom Tashey started it with EGL Los Angeles many years ago and it caught on with a lot of wholesalers and retailers. It was okay at first, then became horribly abused as both wholesalers and retailers used it to sell clearly I1 goods for more than they could get for an honest I1.

It might have been a good thing had it stayed within the parameters it was designed with, but just like today's grade creep, once you lower your standards, it is hard to ever get them back up...

Wink

Those annoying EGL certs are like women buying bras from certain brand catalogs because their size C bras are actually more standard size B bras, and the women feel good saying they're size C! I almost got fooled a while back with a vendor who said they were selling VS1 F stones at price points I couldn't believe, and I found out they were EGL. I'm not sure if these problems perpetuate due to sleazy marketers or delusional gloating customers...

 

[WinkHPD]

I recently had an EGL Los Angeles D-SI1 repapered. It was a stone I had sold back when Tom Tashey ran EGL LA. This was in March of 2000. The wife of the man I sold it to brought it in to have the appraisal updated. I suggested that it needed to be repapered as the EGL lab now has a "less than stellar reputation."

Got the paper from GIA back, D-SI1. Tom Tashey ran a good shop when he had EGL LA. Too bad the brand has managed to sink itself with loose grading.

Wink

 

[Dancing Fire]

GIA should NOT add the SI3 grade. Tom Tashey started it with EGL Los Angeles many years ago and it caught on with a lot of wholesalers and retailers. It was okay at first, then became horribly abused as both wholesalers and retailers used it to sell clearly I1 goods for more than they could get for an honest I1.

Wink

I'd agree with Wink. To me SI3 grade is BS. If GIA added SI3 to their grading system then why not also add VVS3 and VS3?