The new and Permanent HORSEY thread

[elrohwen]

Can you explain the speed index thing? I''m intrigued! I also have zero experience with QHs, and very little with racing TBs for that matter.

 

[dragonfly411]

Well I''m not sure that they have traced SCID to one specific horse. Actually I''m almost positive they haven''t because they can''t seem to find a common denominator beyond "Not Egyptian". The Egyptian lines seem to be immune. Russians are predominant in the gene from what I''ve scene.... but there are some Polish animals with it. It is also interesting to note that until the past 10 years or so, it was less predominant outside of the U.S. I also don''t see it in the Crabbet/CMK horses which leads me to think one of the following : A Polish horse the used in the Russian program in an influential manner, a Russian horse used in the same manner... a horse who got flopped back and forth in the war.... a Crabbet cull (which would and would not make sense. It would b/c her program is seen in every horse BUT the egyptians and would not because I''ve never seen a Crabbet CMK horse with it).

HYPP has been linked to one individual... so is a genetic mutation yes... but it is based on spasmodic (I think this is the word) attacks of the muscles.

What about EPM related diseases? Neurological based? Or Cerebellar atrophy?

 

[dragonfly411]

TB - please talk about speed indexes. It is something I know virtually nothing about, and it''s something I seriously need to learn.


I am moving into barrel racing events, but am interested in racing in general.


Although I do feel that we need to stop messing with their footing yes, there are some horses more apt to Turf and others more apt to dirt. One of the bigger issues I''ve seen, especially in the last ten years, is a move towards lighter horses. I think the thought process has been lighter horse, less weight to haul around... but the bone density has gone way way down in these horses. It used to be that a two year old thoroughbred looked like a freight train, whereas now they are starting to have legs that look like an arab halter horse''s legs. Cruel of me but so true. I am hoping I can find sire and dam lines that are more apt to larger bone density but with the speed required for true competition. Tiz Chrome''s sire Tiznow seems to be siring well, but I haven''t seen him to know what his legs are like, nor any of his other offspring. I''m just getting back to really looking at thoroughbreds, so I''ll be interested to see what''s happened in my 10 year absence from bloodline research for them.

Can you believe that at 11 I knew more about equine bloodlines than both of my trainers? I find it fascinating!

 

[elrohwen]

Not EPM specifically, but there is a protozoa that can cause neurological issues, especially seizures and tilting of the head (which results in loss of balance). Reading the symptoms they're actually fairly similar, but caused by different organisms. Many rabbits can be carriers and never experience symptoms and it's not really treatable - you can only manage the symptoms.

I knew HYPP was linked to one particular horse and I assumed SCID was the same but I guess not. Is it not in the Egyptian lines because they are immune? Or because breeders just haven't cross out in a way that would introduce it?

SCID did remind me of issues in rabbits with dwarfing genes - a rabbit that gets two of these genes won't be viable and will die within a few days or weeks of birth. However, the gene is desirable in small breeds, so breeders just deal with losing a few kits in most litters. A rabbit without the dwarfing gene can be used for breeding, but is generally too large to show. Obviously horse breeders wouldn't deal with losing 1/4 of their foals over something like this, but rabbit breeders don't mind.

 

[dragonfly411]

Elro - I have actually wondered if the genetics of Egyptians prevent it until diluted? I have never seen a straight or half egyptian with SCID. I have seen it with Multiple outcrosses (Egyptian Russian to Polish Russian or the like). I don''t know that they are immune though. I think it is the blood purity thing. Egyptian breeders tend to stick to Egyptians. I have NEVER seen a straight Egyptian SCID carrier. The same goes for the Crabbet/CMK.

It''s interesting that you say horse breeders wouldn''t deal with losing 1/4 of their foals. They still breed to the SCID carriers

which to me is taking the risk regardless of the likelihood of losing a foal or not. The same for CA.

The good thing about the HYPP is it IS linked to one horse... and is easier to cull out of a program than with Arabs where SCID pops up like daisies.

 

[elrohwen]

That is sad! I assumed breeders would be trying to breed it out or at least only breeding carriers to clean horses so there was no chance of the foal having it. With how expensive it is to keep and breed horses and the fact that they only have one baby at a time, it seems like a no brainer to me. Can they test for it? Or do they have to breed and find out?

You can breed bunnies so cheaply, they typically have litters of 4+ babies, and they only have a gestation period of 1 month, so it makes sense why breeders breed two dwarf bunnies together instead of a dwarf to a clean bunny (especially since the non-dwarf carriers generally aren''t show quality, so it''s hard to keep non-show quality buns around and hope that they will throw good babies when bred with a dwarf bun unless you really know your lines).

 

[dragonfly411]

They can test for it, and ethical breeders declare a sire. There is a 50 50 chance a foal will have it and die.... there is another chance on that same level that the foal will be a carrier. It is sad.... I guess they consider the individuals who carry to be too valuable when considering the not so large gene pool. It''s one of many reasons I walked away from the breed.

 

[TBjumper]

Fly by post, will have more info on the indexes for you guys shortly, it''s a really cool system. Basically a measure of speed vs distance. It doesn''t work for the TB''s because there are different distances raced. With the QH''s its always the same length (Quarter mile... hence where the name QH came from...)

You all amaze me, its so wonderful to "talk" with educated enthusiast. I am not in the Arab world so half of this conversation is brand new to me... I love that you guys give me a jumping off point to start researching something.

On that note, would either one of you equate the SCID breeding issue in Arab''s the same as the APHA community with the lethal whites? I know ethical breeders will announce if a stud and or brood mare is a carrier and then it is up to the owners to decide if they want to risk a foal that will absolutely die after birth, but there are SO many owners that either don''t know until its too late/don;t want to pay for the testing or simply don''t disclose the info

 

[dragonfly411]

TB - I think the two are easy to relate to one another in ways, especially when it comes to breeding ethics. The thing about the SCID is it''s like a 50 50. And the foal may stay alive and still be a carrier. I''m not sure if the APHA lethal white works the same way or not?

 

[TBjumper]

DF: Yup a horse can be born a carrier and not display any of the characteristics obviously and live, which I guess makes it 50/50? But if a foal is truly a lethal white... they call it lethal for a reason to my understanding, and I mean solid white, these foals look spooky. Obviously not all white horses or white APHA horses are lethal whites, its a genetic thing with APHA''s to my understanding.

It actually happened to one of my breeder friends... it was not disclosed the stud was a carrier, her mare WAS NOT a carrier (Mare tested for the gene as it ran in her bloodline and she was negiative... I guess certain color paints are more apt to have it?! Not sure) She knew it about it and specifically chose the stud believing he was a safe bet. Its still argued as to whether or not the Stud''s owner knew he was a carrier.

 

[elrohwen]

I honestly know little about the diseases specific to Arabs, QHs, or paints - I''m much more in the english world, but I''ve heard a bit here and there. Since I didn''t know most of these diseases existed until just a few years ago, they''re very interesting to me.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Regarding the breeding for spindly legs issue: TB, I''m right there with you on your soapbox! I think it''s ridiculous that breeders breed for a horse with thinner, more brittle bones AND don''t even give those bones time to fully mature before starting them in one of the most physically demanding careers that a horse can have. It''s just not right. Barbaro . . . Eight Belles . . . ''nuff said.

Red is actually a Canadian Thoroughbred, and he''s surprisingly large boned compared to other TBs his age. I don''t know if maybe the Canadians are breeding for a more sensible body type than the US breeders are? If anyone is interested, here''s a link to Red''s pedigree.

 

[TBjumper]

This is from Wiki, its the best summery I can find about the speed index thing...

"Speed index (sometimes Speed rating) is a system of rating the performance of Quarter Horse racehorses. The American Quarter Horse Association (or the AQHA) has used two systems over the history of Quarter Horse racing to evaluate racing performances. The original system used a letter grade, starting at D, then C, B, A and the highest AA. Later AAA was tacked on the top, and later still AAAT (for TOP AAA) was made the top speed. Eventually, this system became too cumbersome, and new system was introduced, the Speed Index system, which used a number system, with 100 being roughly equivalent to the old AAAT. This happened in 1969.

The actual calculation of the speed index starts with taking the three fastest winning times at a particular distance for the past three years at a given track. These times are averaged together, which is then the 100 speed index for that distance at that track. If the average doesn''t meet the minimum standard time given by the AQHA for that distance, then the minimum standard time is used instead of the specific track average. To calculate a specific speed index for a specific horse in a specific race, the time the horse finished in is compared to the averaged speed for the distance the race was, and points are added or subtracted based on whether the time was faster or slower than the average. The number of points subtracted or added varies according to the distance of the race, and is based on a chart put out by the AQHA.

The AQHA''s award Race Register of Merit is awarded to any horse that achieves a Speed Index of 80 or higher during an approved AQHA race."

 

[TBjumper]

El, I know jack about anything western related. All my friends do HUS, including all the paint people, when AQHA started producing 16.2-17 hand appendix horses the HUS folks took notice REAL quick. The same with the paints. They all look like WB with spots, LOL.

Just for fun, here is a pic of Zoomin for Bux. He is on record as the fastest speed index recorded for QH at 118. So I guess my DH mare was smoking fast

 

[TBjumper]

lets try that again shall we?

Zoomin for Bux AQHA speed index of 118.

Its amazing to me how different he looks from a TB. Now I dont think he looks like your average cow horse either... but certianly more bone then a lot of the little TB''s running now.

 

[TBjumper]

The number 2 horse is Ace Back to Zoom, same sire as Zoomin For Bux. I just look at these pictures and stare, they don''t register to me... too thick to be a TB and too "light bones" to be the cheeky QH I am used to seeing my DH on. Obviously the QH can''t do the distances the TB can because of the weight difference but geez can''t there be a happy medium here?!

 

[Irishgrrrl]

WOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! GO, CALVIN!!!

 

[yssie]

For all the horsey folk:

http://rockdiamond.com/index.php/jewelry/diamond-earrings-104ct-tw-horse-head-noseband-setting

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Yssie, those are so cool! DBL had those a while back, but they didn''t have the little nosebands. Toooo cute!!!

 

[yssie]

Date: 5/2/2010 8:21:30 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Yssie, those are so cool! DBL had those a while back, but they didn''t have the little nosebands. Toooo cute!!!

They really are just so cute

I wonder what GIA would call that shape. Modified Horse-Head Brilliant?

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 5/2/2010 8:37:25 PM
Author: yssie

Date: 5/2/2010 8:21:30 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Yssie, those are so cool! DBL had those a while back, but they didn''t have the little nosebands. Toooo cute!!!

They really are just so cute

I wonder what GIA would call that shape. Modified Horse-Head Brilliant?

LOL! I think that''s probably right . . . and here on PS, we''d refer to it as an MHHB!

 

[TBjumper]

Those studs are too cute...funny I kinda like them better with out the nose band!

Had a good weekend on Rose, I figured I would bore you guys with some work in progress pictures of us. We are still learning each other, and she certainly has good days and bad days. I have to remember for all intensive purposes she really is still a greenie.

Fist pic is warming up, doing a little bending.

 

[dragonfly411]

TB - thank you for ALL of the info The lethal white gene is something I''d like to find out more on.

The speed index thing is pretty cool, and great to know about.

I actually really LIKE the build of speed bred quarter horses and when they''re bred back to a little bit of old cow blood it is

I also think there are some thoroughbreds that are the happy medium, and they are what I''m looking more into as well. There are several Florida stallions that I like a lot that are producing consistent stakes winners. I just want to see more of them.

 

[TBjumper]

andddddd a little canter work during warm up.

 

[TBjumper]

DF: Morning sweetie, looks like we were posting at the same time!
You are more then welcome for the info speed indexes and Lethal Whites included.

I think my TB mare is getting closer to the build I like, (and you are referring too) and I agree there are some TBs out there that have a nice thick(er) bone. Again, she is a Seattle Slew mare so the line is from a horse favorable decades ago, maybe that has something to do with the build, the line isn''t a new flavor so it hasn''t really taken the spider legs look, KWIM?

This last picture is of rose during bath time, I am going to title it "Ode to Red" it looks like she has the same expression and positioning of Red in Irish''s picture. Made me laugh.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 5/3/2010 10:31:21 AM
Author: TBjumper

This last picture is of rose during bath time, I am going to title it 'Ode to Red' it looks like she has the same expression and positioning of Red in Irish's picture. Made me laugh.

LOL! TB, I think that's the "Mother, WHY am I in the cross ties and NOT in my stall eating?" look! I'm very familiar with that look . . . I get it often!

BTW, I just LOVE that speckled snout!

 

[TBjumper]

Date: 5/3/2010 10:47:41 AM
Author: Irishgrrrl

Date: 5/3/2010 10:31:21 AM
Author: TBjumper

This last picture is of rose during bath time, I am going to title it ''Ode to Red'' it looks like she has the same expression and positioning of Red in Irish''s picture. Made me laugh.

LOL! TB, I think that''s the ''Mother, WHY am I in the cross ties and NOT in my stall eating?'' look! I''m very familiar with that look . . . I get it often!

BTW, I just LOVE that speckled snout!

HAHAH, if that was the ONLY look she gave me we''d be set.

Funny you love the snozzle pics so much, I have about 10,000 of them. Evidently my sister enjoys taking nose pictures of Rose

Here''s an up close and personal one for ya

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 5/3/2010 10:59:28 AM
Author: TBjumper
HAHAH, if that was the ONLY look she gave me we''d be set.

Funny you love the snozzle pics so much, I have about 10,000 of them. Evidently my sister enjoys taking nose pictures of Rose

Here''s an up close and personal one for ya

Awwww!!! I don''t blame your sister at all . . . I''d take pics of that nose all day long if I could!

 

[dragonfly411]

your girl is such a cutie!

 

[TBjumper]

Date: 5/3/2010 11:09:51 AM
Author: dragonfly411
your girl is such a cutie!

Hehe, thanks DF