talk to me about dogs

[lovegem]

We''ve finally decided to get a corgi. So I contacted a breeder and she referred me to someone who has a litter coming up at the end of the month and she also has a 2.5 yr old dog available. This young corgi turns out to be more than what we asked for. He is a champ in "best of breed". Not neutered. To be honest, I don''t know what "best of breed" means, and I am a little worried that he would be too well behaved. Does it make any sense? Probably I have never had any pets that are well behaved, and we are not that well behaved ourselves.

She mentioned that the dog has a very good temperament. I will talk to the breeder about this young corgi tomorrow. I don''t even know what to ask about the dog. Maybe ask whether a well behaved dog can get along with some not so well behaved homo sapiens? Can you tell that I am nervous?

 

[yssie]

I''m confused... are you specifically looking for a dog to show? Is the 2.5yr old unable to continue competing, for some reason?


Having a dog is a wonderful experience

I would definitely recommend having him neutered though, unless you''re planning to have him bred.

 

[lovegem]

Yssie,
We are not looking for a dog to show. We are looking for a pet. The breeder just mentioned that she has this 2.5 yr old "finished AKC champion", which I interpreted as she''s no longer showing him in a specific category. Yes, we will have him neutered if he lives with us. Is it bad to have a champion dog as pet? that''s why I said I was a bit worried about him being too well behaved. On the other hand we are happy that he is housebroken and well trained.

 

[IdLikeToBuyAVal]

"finished" to a breeder means the dog has won enough dog shows and accumulated enough points from the winnings to be a champion (CH is added before the dog''s name). Once a dog has been "finished" the dog is then generally bred to continue the show line and make more show puppies to better the breed.

That said, I''m not sure why a breeder would invest thousands of dollars traveling and showing this dog and then get rid of it without wanting to use it as show breeding stock. This would be a red flag for me because there could be health problems the breeder doesn''t want passed on or potential temperament issues that again, the breeder doesn''t want to pass on. Have you visited a Corgi forum?? Maybe other breeders and people involved in the breed can give you some references on this breeder?

Another thing to consider is that boy dogs not neutered early on can sometimes develop the nasty habit of marking and that doesn''t always go away when they are neutered later in life. Our boy Yorkie (from a shelter) was neutered at 11 months and on walks outside still marks EVERYTHING.

You might have better luck finding the kind of dog you''re looking for by going to a corgi breed specific rescue or looking for another breeder. Good luck!

 

[lyra]

He might be a great fit for you. Go see him and see if you have chemistry. He should be well behaved and that''s a bonus really. He will likely already be crate trained and will definitely walk well on a leash, be well socialized with other dogs and people too. Could be a good thing. I would have him neutered right away of course, if you do take him. We neutered our male dog at around that age and actually he then stopped marking things. Ideally, I would always spay/neuter as early as is safe, but it depends on the dog. Male show dogs don''t produce much if any income for the breeder, there is no point in her keeping him at this point unless he was in high demand. Best of breed doesn''t mean much. It depends on the show region, how many were entered, a lot of political nonsense, etc. (ex show person here)

It''s also true that by this age, he would have a set temperament and likely be free from serious health defects as well. You can ask what genetic diseases the breed is prone to and what health checks have been done. Also, the breeder should offer to take him back if for any reason he does not work out in your household.

 

[jet2ks]

Ditto lyra

There are many male show dogs that have finished that will never be used for breeding. Go and check him out, maybe you will click.

Some personal experience that may help. My Brittany, Ace, was shown sporadically for two years, with several placings and a couple of best of breeds in small shows. I got him at 18 months old (yes, that means I showed him for a year+) and he was already housebroken, crate trained, socialized and just needed the right home with someone who could give him the one on one time he wasn''t going to get at the breeders. He might have been able to get his Champion title if I had wanted to send him off with a professional handler, but that just wasn''t my priority, or that of his breeders. Even though he could have finished, he is not the top of the top in conformation, so is not a good candidate for breeding a show line (he has been bred because of his hunting abilities, though). I have had zero issues with Ace and am very pleased with the decision to get him instead of a puppy.

 

[Miss Sparkly]

A dog is only as well behaved as its humans - or pack leaders. Trust me, you don''t want a dog who thinks that he is the pack leader, especially if you have young children. Dogs live in the moment and so I pick a dog based on health, blood lines and general temperament. Why would it be bad to have a champion dog as apet? As I said before, dogs live in the moment and follow their pack leader. They can be just like any other dog - and remember, dogs ARE NOT humans and DO NOT think like humans. I would also take a look at Cesar Millan''s books on dog care to help you make a decision.

 

[lovegem]

Thank you IdLikeToBuyAVal, Lyra, jet2ks and sparky blonde for the insight. we plan to talk to the breeder then hopefully meet the dog if she believes we could be a fit.

Jet2ks, will the breeder asks for more money for a champ dog? Another thing I am a bit concerned is that obviously the breeder spent quit a bit of money training the dog and the dog probably get used to certain life style just like human. Do we have to maintain this lifestyle for the dog?

 

[House Cat]

Even if you''re not the most well behaved human, you still want a very well behaved dog.

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 2/4/2010 10:57:50 PM
Author: lovegem
Thank you IdLikeToBuyAVal, Lyra, jet2ks and sparky blonde for the insight. we plan to talk to the breeder then hopefully meet the dog if she believes we could be a fit.

Jet2ks, will the breeder asks for more money for a champ dog? Another thing I am a bit concerned is that obviously the breeder spent quit a bit of money training the dog and the dog probably get used to certain life style just like human. Do we have to maintain this lifestyle for the dog?

Maybe, but not necessarily. A good breeder is more interested in seeing the dog go to a good home than the money. (I was charged the same price for Ace as what a puppy would cost) The breeder can still use the fact he finished as bragging rights for how good their breedings and litters are. Expect that the breeder will want to interview you just as much or more than you are interviewing them. They most likely will want to know a lot about your home, schedule and lifestyle to be sure that the dog is going somewhere that is a great fit.

I think you'll be surprised about the whole lifestyle thing. Most small breeders treat their dogs just like any other pet the vast majority of the time, having them in the house and dealing with everyday life. Obviously, different rules apply for large breeders and professional handlers, so much will depend on the dog's background. Dogs are really adaptable, though, and as SB points out, you just have to establish yourself as the pack leader and the dog will quickly adjust to your training.

Also, the amount of training for conformation shows is less than you might think. When Ace was showing, I spent about 15-20min a day at the most with him on that, and once he understood what was expected, we just did refreshers the week before shows. When a show is coming up, more time was spent grooming than training.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 2/4/2010 7:57:57 PM
Author:lovegem
We've finally decided to get a corgi. So I contacted a breeder and she referred me to someone who has a litter coming up at the end of the month and she also has a 2.5 yr old dog available. This young corgi turns out to be more than what we asked for. He is a champ in 'best of breed'. Not neutered. To be honest, I don't know what 'best of breed' means, and I am a little worried that he would be too well behaved. Does it make any sense? Probably I have never had any pets that are well behaved, and we are not that well behaved ourselves.

She mentioned that the dog has a very good temperament. I will talk to the breeder about this young corgi tomorrow. I don't even know what to ask about the dog. Maybe ask whether a well behaved dog can get along with some not so well behaved homo sapiens? Can you tell that I am nervous?

A 2.5 year old dog that is no longer wanted by the breeder - has some issue that has caused her to no longer want it's genes in her stock. Could be something minor in terms of confirmation - "looks" that are out of breed standard, in which case this dog will still be a perfect pet. If he won best in breed once - I doubt he is out of standard in appearance. So, the other thing could be a genetic/health issue - you need to know. I would find out exactly why they no longer want the dog.

Also - a reputable breeder would NEVER sell an intact adult (un neutered) male as a pet - never, EVER. If they do not neuter the dog before selling it to you there is def. something fishy about them.

Sorry - but what on earth do you mean by "too well behaved?" are you serious or just making a joke? An ill behaved dog is not "fun" in the least, not sure why you would look for one. If I were a breeder and a potential buyer asked me that question, I'd hang up on them.

Basically, all the show titles in the world mean nothing when it comes to a "pet" dog. You aren't going to be showing him, so it doesn't really matter what titles he has. Best in breed could mean that he won a local county fair show for all you know. All that is important is that his personality and breed are a good fit for your lifestyle. Are you an active person? Corgis are working dogs, are you up for giving him daily exercise?

There are many websites out there that educate you on how to screen a breeder, here is one:

http://www.pageweb.com/graenit/breedfaq.htm#LitterQuest

Good luck!

 

[elrohwen]

Definitely go with the well trained dog! I don't really see how a well behaved dog would ever be a problem? It's not a robot - it's a dog. It will still run around and have fun. It will play with toys and track dirt into the house.

It probably won't bark non-stop, pull on the leash, bite people or dogs (corgis are known as nippers anyway and are the only dog I've ever been bitten by - I would absolutely advise getting a well bred and well behaved dog for this reason). These are all things you would not want in a pet, even if you claim your family isn't that well behaved.

I would go through with a neuter if you do get him, to curb some bad behaviors that come with that (and prevent any doggie pregnancy) but I honestly don't see how a well behaved dog would ever every be a bad thing. I would jump to get him in a second!

eta: Plenty of champion dogs live as house pets. They don't have a "lifestyle" that's any different from a normal dog, except that they travel to shows on occasion.

 

[MonkeyPants]

have nothing to add except I LOVE CORGIES!!!

 

[purrfectpear]

As an ex show dog person myself, I can assure you there is little "training" in the normal sense. Showdogs do not necessarily know how to sit, come, or any other command. The only thing they are "trained" in is how to "stack" (how they stand and place their feet at a stop), to let strangers look in their mouths, and touch them all over. They know to trot/run at a certain pace and pay attention to the handler (who is likely baiting them with treats). Beyond that, some show dogs just have great personalities as "showmen". They really turn on when they enter the ring and are natural crowd pleasers.

Your ex show dog will be as rambuncious, or not, as his/her natural personality (and you) allow.

Do NOT let the breeder attempt to charge you a show dog price. While he might be better than pet quality, you are doing HER a favor by taking him off her hands. She only has room for so many dogs in her stable, and clearly she has decided he is not worth keeping for future stud fees. You should only pay a "pet quality" price (and even a bit less as you aren''t getting a puppy).

 

[lovegem]

Date: 2/5/2010 1:31:54 PM
Author: elrohwen
Definitely go with the well trained dog! I don''t really see how a well behaved dog would ever be a problem? It''s not a robot - it''s a dog. It will still run around and have fun. It will play with toys and track dirt into the house.

Elrohwen, that''s exactly what I was thinking about with the word "well behaved".

author: purrfectpear
As an ex show dog person myself, I can assure you there is little "training" in the normal sense. Showdogs do not necessarily know how to sit, come, or any other command. The only thing they are "trained" in is how to "stack" (how they stand and place their feet at a stop), to let strangers look in their mouths, and touch them all over. They know to trot/run at a certain pace and pay attention to the handler (who is likely baiting them with treats). Beyond that, some show dogs just have great personalities as "showmen". They really turn on when they enter the ring and are natural crowd pleasers.

Your ex show dog will be as rambuncious, or not, as his/her natural personality (and you) allow.

Thanks purrfectpear for reassuring me on getting a ex show dog.

 

[elrohwen]

Think of a well behaved dog like you would a well behaved little kid. This little kid is good, doesn't throw tantrums or embarrass you in public. However, it's still a little kid with all of the silly things that go along with little kids - it's just easier to live with this kid than with one who is a total brat. Same with dogs. A well behaved dog is still going to do silly dog things and make messes - dogs are like 3 year olds at heart.

And for a show dog, like others said, it really only needs to walk on a leash, be ok around other dogs and people, and pay attention to its owner. It might still chew up all of your shoes, for all you know!

Getting a dog to walk calmly on a leash and be social around other people and dogs is a huge deal and something many dog owners (including me) struggle with sometimes with particular dogs - having that out of the way would be wonderful. And as I said before, temperament in corgis is a big deal, so to have an older dog that has been established as having a fantastic personality is a win-win.

 

[AmberGretchen]

Date: 2/4/2010 9:35:32 PM
Author: Sparkly Blonde
A dog is only as well behaved as its humans - or pack leaders. Trust me, you don''t want a dog who thinks that he is the pack leader, especially if you have young children. Dogs live in the moment and so I pick a dog based on health, blood lines and general temperament. Why would it be bad to have a champion dog as apet? As I said before, dogs live in the moment and follow their pack leader. They can be just like any other dog - and remember, dogs ARE NOT humans and DO NOT think like humans. I would also take a look at Cesar Millan''s books on dog care to help you make a decision.

You''ve gotten some wonderful advice here about this dog, and I think that going to see him with an open mind, and with the advice here in mind, is an excellent plan. One small thing I would add - as someone who has trained dogs and puppies for about 4 years now, I would always recommend an older dog with at least SOME training for a household where discipline is likely to be a little limited. Puppies have much greater needs, both in terms of care (taking them out to potty every few hours around the clock), and in terms of socialization and training, and failing to do the appropriate things can lead to serious behavioral problems down the road. With the older dog, you know that at least he will have been properly socialized as a puppy. And even though you might have to teach him some obedience behaviors, such as sit, down, and come, those are far easier than trying to socialize a dog that hasn''t been properly socialized as a puppy to handling - in fact one of the major things we do with puppies and recommend to owners is TONS of handling, to ensure that vets, children, and anyone else who may come in contact with these puppies down the line as adults will have whatever type of handling they need to do be well-tolerated by the dog.

One other thing I feel compelled to chime in on here. If you are interested in learning about training your dog properly, Cesar Milan is NOT the resource to use. His methods and theories, particularly with regards to dominance theory, are very outdated (think research that is at least 20-30 years old and out of date), and can be very dangerous, especially in the hands of ordinary dog owners. I don''t want to threadjack this thread, but will post this link to relevant position statements by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior that clearly show how Mr. Milan''s techniques are severely misguided and often harmful. For alternative techniques based on a much more complete understanding of dog behavior, please take a look at works by any of the following authors: Ian Dunbar, Patricia Cornwell, or Jean Donaldson (there are many others). Or simply Google "positive reinforcement training" and follow the basic guidelines you see there.

Good luck - I''ve worked with many Corgis over the years (we actually had a whole class of them in Agility one time - can you imagine how cute?!!) and they are wonderful dogs

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 2/6/2010 10:45:23 AM
Author: AmberGretchen
One other thing I feel compelled to chime in on here. If you are interested in learning about training your dog properly, Cesar Milan is NOT the resource to use. His methods and theories, particularly with regards to dominance theory, are very outdated (think research that is at least 20-30 years old and out of date), and can be very dangerous, especially in the hands of ordinary dog owners. I don''t want to threadjack this thread, but will post this link to relevant position statements by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior that clearly show how Mr. Milan''s techniques are severely misguided and often harmful. For alternative techniques based on a much more complete understanding of dog behavior, please take a look at works by any of the following authors: Ian Dunbar, Patricia Cornwell, or Jean Donaldson (there are many others). Or simply Google ''positive reinforcement training'' and follow the basic guidelines you see there.

I want to totally ditto everything you said about Cesar Milan. I didn''t want to say anything because I feel like a broken record about this guy, but I''m really glad you said it (and said it better than I could''ve!).

I think dog owners would be far better off without his books and tv show.

 

[Squirrly]

i have nothing constructive to add other than corgi''s are adorable and i''d love to see pics of the one you end up getting

 

[AmberGretchen]

Date: 2/6/2010 10:50:40 AM
Author: elrohwen

Date: 2/6/2010 10:45:23 AM

Author: AmberGretchen

One other thing I feel compelled to chime in on here. If you are interested in learning about training your dog properly, Cesar Milan is NOT the resource to use. His methods and theories, particularly with regards to dominance theory, are very outdated (think research that is at least 20-30 years old and out of date), and can be very dangerous, especially in the hands of ordinary dog owners. I don''t want to threadjack this thread, but will post this link to relevant position statements by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior that clearly show how Mr. Milan''s techniques are severely misguided and often harmful. For alternative techniques based on a much more complete understanding of dog behavior, please take a look at works by any of the following authors: Ian Dunbar, Patricia Cornwell, or Jean Donaldson (there are many others). Or simply Google ''positive reinforcement training'' and follow the basic guidelines you see there.

I want to totally ditto everything you said about Cesar Milan. I didn''t want to say anything because I feel like a broken record about this guy, but I''m really glad you said it (and said it better than I could''ve!).


I think dog owners would be far better off without his books and tv show.

Thanks el - I couldn''t agree more. It wasn''t until I started training dogs myself as an adult that I realized how disastrously wrong some of his theories and techniques are. While I respect and value all of the advocacy and rescue work he does, I really think that people need to get away from this outdated and dangerous dominance-based dog training - its dangerous, misguided, and ineffective.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 2/7/2010 10:14:59 AM
Author: AmberGretchen

Date: 2/6/2010 10:50:40 AM
Author: elrohwen

Date: 2/6/2010 10:45:23 AM

Author: AmberGretchen

One other thing I feel compelled to chime in on here. If you are interested in learning about training your dog properly, Cesar Milan is NOT the resource to use. His methods and theories, particularly with regards to dominance theory, are very outdated (think research that is at least 20-30 years old and out of date), and can be very dangerous, especially in the hands of ordinary dog owners. I don''t want to threadjack this thread, but will post this link to relevant position statements by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior that clearly show how Mr. Milan''s techniques are severely misguided and often harmful. For alternative techniques based on a much more complete understanding of dog behavior, please take a look at works by any of the following authors: Ian Dunbar, Patricia Cornwell, or Jean Donaldson (there are many others). Or simply Google ''positive reinforcement training'' and follow the basic guidelines you see there.

I want to totally ditto everything you said about Cesar Milan. I didn''t want to say anything because I feel like a broken record about this guy, but I''m really glad you said it (and said it better than I could''ve!).


I think dog owners would be far better off without his books and tv show.

Thanks el - I couldn''t agree more. It wasn''t until I started training dogs myself as an adult that I realized how disastrously wrong some of his theories and techniques are. While I respect and value all of the advocacy and rescue work he does, I really think that people need to get away from this outdated and dangerous dominance-based dog training - its dangerous, misguided, and ineffective.

I also like that he has given the average dog owner a tv show and books to turn to when they would otherwise be hopeless - I just wish his training methods were as good as he makes them seem. I think it''s easy to get sucked into his methods while watching the show or reading his books, but they''re so ineffective. I think the only good thing he''s taught dog owners is the importance of exercise for dogs (though I think all trainers would agree that a tired dog is a good dog).

 

[AmberGretchen]

El - I completely agree. As a trainer and shelter volunteer who has seen dogs be returned to shelters and rescues for bad behaviors that even a tiny bit of training would have corrected, I applaud his efforts to promulgate the importance of training, exercise, and discipline in general for dogs. I just think that people see his show and think that his methods are both quick and effective, neither of which is true, in fact, in many cases they can be dangerous - I shudder to think of people trying to "alpha-roll" their own dogs at home (which of course is not at all what happens in nature, now that we''ve studied it a bit more...)

I''m totally on board with the exercise thing and its one of the things we stress to new adopters, but there are so many fantastic and easy ways to train your dog without resorting to mis-guided dominance-style and negative reinforcement training.

Actually, the dog training show I really like is "It''s Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet - Victoria Stillwell actually uses positive reinforcement techniques to great effect, even with really out of control dogs (and owners), and I like that as I''ve watched the show, I can see her adapting and growing and changing her techniques in line with the latest research and understanding of animal behavior. Just as I would never go to a human doctor who thought that the research 20-30 years ago was adequate to treat medical problems today, so it does not make sense to me to use animal behavior modification techniques that are that far out of date either. In both cases, I''d much rather have someone who keeps up to date on the latest (rigorously proven, of course) information available from reputable sources and incorporates it into their practice/craft.

 

[AmberGretchen]

love gem - what happened with the Corgi??!!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Hey, Lovegem, how did the interview with the breeder go?

I currently show my younger dog and am a bit perplexed as to why a breeder would put all of the work into having a dog get his championship, then sell him. DEFINITELY ask him/her why he/she has decided to retire the dog. My gut tells me it''s a health issue, otherwise she would use hiim for breeding...especially if she''s in love with his temperament.

Also, make sure that she isn''t looking for a co-ownership. Unless, of course, you are okay with this. This would give her all breeding rights to the dog while you are considered the owner.

And finally, if you are interested in this dog, definitely ask the breeder for her opinion on neutering. There is a lot of medical research out there supporting the belief that keeping a dog in-tact is more healthy than neutering, so I would definitely talk with her about her lines and ask her what she believes is best for the dog, then take that into consideration before making any decisions.

 

[AmberGretchen]

Date: 2/8/2010 11:04:56 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
Hey, Lovegem, how did the interview with the breeder go?

I currently show my younger dog and am a bit perplexed as to why a breeder would put all of the work into having a dog get his championship, then sell him. DEFINITELY ask him/her why he/she has decided to retire the dog. My gut tells me it''s a health issue, otherwise she would use hiim for breeding...especially if she''s in love with his temperament.

Also, make sure that she isn''t looking for a co-ownership. Unless, of course, you are okay with this. This would give her all breeding rights to the dog while you are considered the owner.

And finally, if you are interested in this dog, definitely ask the breeder for her opinion on neutering. There is a lot of medical research out there supporting the belief that keeping a dog in-tact is more healthy than neutering, so I would definitely talk with her about her lines and ask her what she believes is best for the dog, then take that into consideration before making any decisions.

Agreed with what NEL says about checking carefully into why she wants to sell the titled dog - that does sound fishy to me as well.

Re: the neutering, I think in your case, it sounds like neutering would be a really really good plan - you say yourself that you are not the most well-behaved people and aren''t planning on being super-strict with a dog, and an un-neutered male dog is something you have to be SUPER careful with - their mating urges are very strong and can lead to all kinds of bad behavior, including escaping to get to females.

Also, re: health issues - NEL, is there new research that I''m not aware of into health benefits of intact dogs in non-giant breeds? As far as I could tell from my research, for non-giant breeds, the pros (improved temperament, reduced risk of some cancers) pretty much equal the cons (possible issues with bone development, tendency to gain weight), and that plus the risk of adding more unwanted puppies makes me a very strong spay/neuter advocate. I know with your big guys, its a bit of a different story, but if there is new research for small and medium dogs, can you share it with me? I really worry about potentially sending the message that its OK for the average dog owner to leave their animal unfixed, due to the high risk of unwanted litters, and I know with all of your rescue and breed advocacy work you must too, hence I''d really like to see any new info you have that is leading you to write the post above.

 

[waterlilly]

As I mentioned before - a breeder (a REPUTABLE one) would never, never, never sell one of their pet quality dogs intact. If they decided the dog was not worthy of breeding - they would never allow it to breed with their dogs or anyone else''s. No true breeder wants a sub standard dog in the gene pool, especially one that they produced and would have their names attached to.

In my opinion, it''s a no-brainer. If you aren''t showing your dog, it should be fixed. There are health arguments both ways - but there is no disputing the disgusting numbers of perfectly good puppies and adult dogs that are gassed everyday in this country because of overpopulation. The last thing we need are more dogs being produced because a couple of irresponsible neighbors didn''t watch their dogs close enough. Who want''s an intact dog as a pet? When I have intact fosters I count the days until their surgery - they are such PITA''s with raging hormones.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 2/8/2010 1:57:48 PM
Author: AmberGretchen

Date: 2/8/2010 11:04:56 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
Hey, Lovegem, how did the interview with the breeder go?

I currently show my younger dog and am a bit perplexed as to why a breeder would put all of the work into having a dog get his championship, then sell him. DEFINITELY ask him/her why he/she has decided to retire the dog. My gut tells me it's a health issue, otherwise she would use hiim for breeding...especially if she's in love with his temperament.

Also, make sure that she isn't looking for a co-ownership. Unless, of course, you are okay with this. This would give her all breeding rights to the dog while you are considered the owner.

And finally, if you are interested in this dog, definitely ask the breeder for her opinion on neutering. There is a lot of medical research out there supporting the belief that keeping a dog in-tact is more healthy than neutering, so I would definitely talk with her about her lines and ask her what she believes is best for the dog, then take that into consideration before making any decisions.

Agreed with what NEL says about checking carefully into why she wants to sell the titled dog - that does sound fishy to me as well.

Re: the neutering, I think in your case, it sounds like neutering would be a really really good plan - you say yourself that you are not the most well-behaved people and aren't planning on being super-strict with a dog, and an un-neutered male dog is something you have to be SUPER careful with - their mating urges are very strong and can lead to all kinds of bad behavior, including escaping to get to females.

Also, re: health issues - NEL, is there new research that I'm not aware of into health benefits of intact dogs in non-giant breeds? As far as I could tell from my research, for non-giant breeds, the pros (improved temperament, reduced risk of some cancers) pretty much equal the cons (possible issues with bone development, tendency to gain weight), and that plus the risk of adding more unwanted puppies makes me a very strong spay/neuter advocate. I know with your big guys, its a bit of a different story, but if there is new research for small and medium dogs, can you share it with me? I really worry about potentially sending the message that its OK for the average dog owner to leave their animal unfixed, due to the high risk of unwanted litters, and I know with all of your rescue and breed advocacy work you must too, hence I'd really like to see any new info you have that is leading you to write the post above.

Very good point, AG. I will definitely say that all of my research has been focused on giant breed dogs, however I was recently reading a study specifically on labs in which is why I thought it might be good for LG to ask her breeder specifically for her opinion on the matter. I wish I could provide an electronic link the the study (I did a quick search, but couldn't find it). I was reading it at a local kennel club meeting before a handling class about a month ago. I agree that if a person is not willing to take on the extra work in order to ensure that the dog does not produce puppies, then he/she should not keep an in-tact dog. Eeighing the pros and cons of neutering the dog is something I would want to talk about with the breeder, though.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 2/8/2010 2:23:53 PM
Author: waterlilly
As I mentioned before - a breeder (a REPUTABLE one) would never, never, never sell one of their pet quality dogs intact. If they decided the dog was not worthy of breeding - they would never allow it to breed with their dogs or anyone else's. No true breeder wants a sub standard dog in the gene pool, especially one that they produced and would have their names attached to.

In my opinion, it's a no-brainer. If you aren't showing your dog, it should be fixed. There are health arguments both ways - but there is no disputing the disgusting numbers of perfectly good puppies and adult dogs that are gassed everyday in this country because of overpopulation. The last thing we need are more dogs being produced because a couple of irresponsible neighbors didn't watch their dogs close enough. Who want's an intact dog as a pet? When I have intact fosters I count the days until their surgery - they are such PITA's with raging hormones.

WL, while I am most active in the giant-breed world, it's very common for very reputable breeders to decide to sell a young adult dog in-tact (over 6 months). In fact, I've known several breeders who took BoB at Westminster who do this. Most reputable giant-breed dog breeders won't allow the dog to be neutered BEFORE a certain age. For my older dog it was 1 year and for my younger dog it is 15 months. I've looked over several contracts where the minimum age is 18 months to 24 months. Even for small/medium breeds, most reputable breeders don't want the dog neutered before the 6-month mark due to the issues with early neutering for all breed sizes.

I completely agree that overpopulation is a serious (and infuriating) issue. However I've also known many pet owners who've struggled with the neutering debate while figuring out what is healthiest for their dog, and I can understand that. Not to start any type of neutering debate here, and I do think that this particular scenario with the Corgi has some red flags, but in general I don't find it to be a red flag if a breeder sells a young adult dog in-tact so long as the parameters for neutering are outlined in the contract.

 

[lovegem]

Thanks NEL, Waterlilly and Amber for sharing your thoughts.

I talked to the breeder and found out that the dog isn''t neutered because she has been showing him and he is also the father of one of her litters. she didn''t explicitly say why she''s not using him anymore, but she did mention that the corgi is wider on his sides. She said he''s healthy and great with kids and cats (problem is, we have birds, so she doesn''t know whether the dog and my birds would get along or not).

He''s also on a half raw diet. He is fed ground chicken meat three times a week (if I remember it right). NewEnglandLady, I know you also feed your dog a raw diet, maybe you can give me some idea about this.. If I switched the dog out of a raw diet, will the dog miss the raw meat? My birds may smell and look very tasty to him when/if he miss the raw meat. How''s their energy level if we stop the raw meat diet?

We are also a little concern about this young corgi''s well being if he lives with us. The breeder is retired, so she is home most of the time and like she said, she took them for a walk for 4 or 5 times a day and they have access to a big back yard, which we don''t have because we live in an apartment. She also has 6 dogs in the house, so I am worried that this corgi would get lonely in our home.

We will meet the corgi next weekend and the breeder also has a clutch of puppies in March, we may be able to meet the parents first. In the mean time, I will continue to check on petfinder for a corgi.

 

[AmberGretchen]

Hi lovegem - I think its fantastic that you are being so thorough about your research on this guy and on getting a pet in general - I applaud you for it

Regarding the raw food diet, I''d say you have a few options. The first is that there are commercially-available raw food diets, that come in frozen form, and you just defrost the correct amount (many come in patties or medallions) one day before you need it and then feed it to your dog like regular food - no muss, no fuss. Nature''s variety (link) makes an excellent frozen raw food diet, and I''m sure others do as well.

Alternatively, if you switch to a very high quality dry and/or wet food, with a gradual transition, the dog should do just fine. For an extended discussion of high quality dog (and cat) foods, with links, info, etc...check out this thread from a while back.