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Statutory Rape Laws

Jambalaya

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Presumably sexually active 14 and 15-year-olds are having relationships with other 14 and 15-year-olds. This situation is really different.

I don't know; I think it varies. Often, the boy/man is older, I think. But I don't know by how much.

The question is not about the grossness of it. It's completely gross. But given how happy she was in the relationship, I'm not sure we should prosecute cases like that.
 

Jambalaya

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You don't create rules around exceptions.

In California, they do. The judge has discretion about whether to put the older party on the sex offenders list or not. Presumably it matters what the younger party says.
 

Jambalaya

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What if the next 14 yr old he "dated" was actually traumatized? What about her? What if went even younger in the next relationship, or before her? It was okay at 14...why not 12? What if she is a really, really mature 12yr old?

That's why I posited the idea that there could be a major-minor rule for age 14-16.
 

Gussie

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I am shocked this is even up for debate. Yes he should be prosecuted and register as a sex offender. He IS a sex offender, regardless of whether or not the victim was happy with the abuse.
 
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marymm

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Exactly; this is the confusing part for me. She was happy at the time and is still happy with that decision 15 years on. In court, she stated that when she broke up with him at age 16, he cried and said he loved her. I don't get it, either. Gross all round. My point is, should we treat someone as a victim who insists they were not victimized?

The legislation is focused on the perpetrator as the wrongdoer, and the child as the person he/she wronged ... the child was wronged regardless of the child's apparent willingness.

So, yes, even if the child wholeheartedly believes he/she was a happy participant, we know in fact the child was wronged, and thus the child is appropriately termed a victim of the perpetrator.
 
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Jambalaya

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I am shocked this is even up for debate.

This is up for debate in many states, actually. In CA, there's no automatic punishment if the younger person is 14-17 and the older person is no more than ten years older. So in CA, a 24-year-old man can potentially get away with having a relationship with a 14-year-old. There's lots of debate about this.

She seemed happy, is all I'm saying. It seems very different to me from situations where someone is coerced - and, of course, forced.
 

Jambalaya

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The legislation is focused on the perpetrator as the wrongdoer, and the child as the person he wronged ... the child was wronged regardless of the child's apparent willingness.

So, yes, even if the child wholeheartedly believes he/she was a happy participant, we know in fact the child was wronged, and thus can be the child is appropriately termed a victim of the perpetrator.

Right, exactly. That's an accurate description o the law as it stands.

I think there should be a major-minor law for consenting cases where the younger party is 16-16, or 14-18 in states where the age of consent is 18.
 

Jambalaya

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Turns out that some states do have exceptions for cases that are close in age. They're named Romeo and Juliet clauses, and the definition of close-in-age varies from 1 year to a max of 10 (CA). Kentucky is in the middle with 5.
 

Cerulean

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In California, they do. The judge has discretion about whether to put the older party on the sex offenders list or not. Presumably it matters what the younger party says.

You are missing the point entirely.

What you are describing is one of the many reasons why judges exist in the first place. They are supposed to use impartial judgement to interpret the law, discipline, etc.

Crime and punishment are not the same thing.

All states agree that the minimum age of consent is 16. Punishment for violating that, varies substantially. My point is that you do not base laws (such as the age of consent minimums) around exceptional anecdotes because there is evidence-based research on the cognitive development of minors and sexual activity.

For some reason, you seem to think your opinion is more valid?

Legally, the girl at 14 did NOT GIVE CONSENT. That choice was taken away from her the moment the 30yr old man decided to pursue her regardless of consequences and potential harm done to her. He ruined his own life the moment he made that choice.

I don't care if he is a bleeding heart, romantic sap. I don't care if she thinks it was the best relationship of her life. He broke a law. He took her choices away. Whether she feels "okay" about it in hindsight is irrelevant. The milieu of possible alternatives for a much sadder story are infinite.
 

Ionysis

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People who are kidnapped can develop relationships and even fall in love with their kidnappers. Stockholm Syndrome. Children who are sexually abused by their parents can still adore them.

I’ve got a friend from school who had a “consensual” relationship with a much older teacher. She also thought it was all fine and she was happy and it hadn’t impacted her. Until her own daughter got to the same age she was at the time.

At that point she had a nervous breakdown and went into therapy because she suddenly realised, whatever she had thought before, that she had been groomed, taken advantage of and her childhood had been stolen from her.

Seeing her own daughter at that age made her realise what she had really been like at 15 - not the savvy, mature, worldly, rebellious little vixen she thought of herself as. But a silly teenager who wasn’t capable of making informed choices.

Laws are there for a reason. He deserved every minute of his sentence.
 

Ionysis

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Exactly; this is the confusing part for me. She was happy at the time and is still happy with that decision 15 years on. In court, she stated that when she broke up with him at age 16, he cried and said he loved her. I don't get it, either. Gross all round. My point is, should we treat someone as a victim who insists they were not victimized?

She may not realise she was victimised because she knew nothing different. If you fed a child nothing but grass, water and vitamin shots how would it know it was being abused if it had never seen real food? At the age of 14 she should have been exploring her life with other kids her age. That was stolen from her. Whether she realises it or not. She may never realise it. “Victims” of crime may not always FEEL traumatised. Does that mean the crime didn’t happen?
 
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I think the difference here, as reiterated by some other posters, is the power differential between an adult and a child. Grooming is very much a thing. I’m in my late 20s and the idea of having a relationship with a 14 year old gives me the creeps. I mean I literally see 14 year olds the same way I see 4 year olds - like little children. It says a lot about the guy that he not only wanted a sexual relationship with a literal child, he presumably also could not find an adult woman he could be compatible with / who wanted him. Either he is so immature or emotionally stunted that he has more in common with a 14 year old (I remember 14, and I remember thinking I was grown up and mature but looking back I was little better than a toddler); or he prefers children to adults in a sexual way which is... disturbing to say the least and would make him a literal pedophile. The Lolita comparison is disturbingly apt (I’ve tried to read the book multiple times but I can’t make it past the first chapter. How well written it is makes it even more gut churning).

The power differential and potential for grooming is what makes this case much worse than 14/15 year olds having sex with each other. I personally am creeped out by even 14 and 18, four years is a LOT at that age. I support the age of consent being 18 with Romeo-Juliet laws in place so that 16yos can have relationships with let’s say 19yos; and 17yos with 20yos at most (for me 16 and 19 is the max I’m personally comfortable with as that would be a couple that met when one was a freshman and the other a high school senior). Power differential is also why for eg, college professors are not allowed to have relationships with their students (and in some institutions with any students that attend the same university they are employed at, even if they don’t directly teach that student); or why bosses can’t have relations with their subordinates. It’s not illegal, but it’s still not allowed because it’s a situation with a high potential for abuse of power. And here we’re talking about two adults, who have the emotional maturity to make considered choices. Children are easier to manipulate. The entire thing grosses me out. I’m glad she doesn’t feel like she was abused but the fact still remains that she was.
 

Jambalaya

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You are missing the point entirely.

What you are describing is one of the many reasons why judges exist in the first place. They are supposed to use impartial judgement to interpret the law, discipline, etc.

Crime and punishment are not the same thing.

All states agree that the minimum age of consent is 16. Punishment for violating that, varies substantially. My point is that you do not base laws (such as the age of consent minimums) around exceptional anecdotes because there is evidence-based research on the cognitive development of minors and sexual activity.

For some reason, you seem to think your opinion is more valid?

Legally, the girl at 14 did NOT GIVE CONSENT. That choice was taken away from her the moment the 30yr old man decided to pursue her regardless of consequences and potential harm done to her. He ruined his own life the moment he made that choice.

I don't care if he is a bleeding heart, romantic sap. I don't care if she thinks it was the best relationship of her life. He broke a law. He took her choices away. Whether she feels "okay" about it in hindsight is irrelevant. The milieu of possible alternatives for a much sadder story are infinite.

Cerulean, I understand how the laws stand at the moment. I'm aware that legally she could not give consent. My point is, I'm not convinced that that is right. These laws do allow for exceptions (the RJ laws) and for much leeway by the judge, in some places. So if we have these other exceptions, why not a major-minor exception for cases where the younger person is 14-16/18 and insists that consent was given?

Regarding me thinking my opinion is more valid, I'm not sure of my opinion on this subject, hence the debate. And there is much debate in the States about these laws.

But in general terms, on subjects other than this one, if we didn't think our opinions were right, they wouldn't be our opinions, would they?
 

Jambalaya

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Some people had mentioned the concept of grooming. I hadn't really considered that. See, I know the girl, and I guess I believe her when she says all was well.
 

Jambalaya

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Jambalaya

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There’s no way an adult can have sex with a child and have it be anything but abuse.

Exactly - you would think so, wouldn't you? I'd say exactly the same thing if I didn't know her. But I do, and seeing how OK she is with that past relationship makes me question the current laws - in terms of, maybe greater weight should be given to the younger party's story.
 

Ionysis

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Frankly I’d be disturbed by a 14 year old having sex. Full stop. With anyone. Even another 14 year old. I do not believe it’s advisable, optimal, desirable, for kids that young to be sexually active. Hell, I can’t trust my kid to remember to lock the front door or put her school bag away. Is it a good thing to gamble that a 14 year old is mature and sensible enough not get an STD, pregnant, pressured into sexual acts she isn’t comfortable with etc. There is so much time in their lives for them to enjoy sex. Why the rush? Given the risks.
 

marymm

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@Jambalaya, if a 14 year old told you a teacher/authority figure was asking her to do things against school/organization rules but that she was okay with it, would you consider the matter closed or would you be thinking you need to reach out to her parent and/or take steps to protect the child?
 

Jambalaya

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People who are kidnapped can develop relationships and even fall in love with their kidnappers. Stockholm Syndrome. Children who are sexually abused by their parents can still adore them.

I’ve got a friend from school who had a “consensual” relationship with a much older teacher. She also thought it was all fine and she was happy and it hadn’t impacted her. Until her own daughter got to the same age she was at the time.

At that point she had a nervous breakdown and went into therapy because she suddenly realised, whatever she had thought before, that she had been groomed, taken advantage of and her childhood had been stolen from her.

Wow, that's terrible. Poor thing! Can she report him to the police now? Or has too much time passed?

I hope that doesn't happen to the young woman that I know. I've been quite convinced by her feelings and opinions about her relationship, but maybe I'm wrong to be. Perhaps the laws should stay as-is after all. Gosh, that's a really humbling tale above. :cry2:
 

chemgirl

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Exactly - you would think so, wouldn't you? I'd say exactly the same thing if I didn't know her. But I do, and seeing how OK she is with that past relationship makes me question the current laws - in terms of, maybe greater weight should be given to the younger party's story.

Victims don’t always realize they’ve been abused. That’s part of grooming. It’s what predators do.

I wonder how she would feel if she found out she wasn’t the only one? He’s a pedophile. Chances are she wasn’t the first or the last.
 

Jambalaya

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@Jambalaya, if a 14 year old told you a teacher/authority figure was asking her to do things against school/organization rules but that she was okay with it, would you consider the matter closed or would you be thinking you need to reach out to her parent and/or take steps to protect the child?

Oh, I would reach out to the appropriate parent and/or authority and do my best to protect said child from him/herself being okay with it and from the potential perp. As I said, I think the relationship I've described sounds gross to me. In the situation you posit, it would not yet have happened and I would be VERY concerned about the future effect on the child, even if they said they were okay.

In the situation I described, it was years in the past and she was still saying that she was OK. So I am operating from a future vantagepoint which is different from the real-time vantage point that you describe. But I think I might have been unduly influenced by knowing her personally and hearing her story. Perhaps the laws should say as-is after all.
 
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Exactly - you would think so, wouldn't you? I'd say exactly the same thing if I didn't know her. But I do, and seeing how OK she is with that past relationship makes me question the current laws - in terms of, maybe greater weight should be given to the younger party's story.

So this is why I wouldn’t give weight to the younger party’s story. I’ll paint an example here - not saying this is 100% how it went down but statistically, yes, this is how it would have gone down.

She was 14, which means max a couple years into hitting puberty. At that age, you’re very much a hormonal cocktail - impulsive, reckless, and discovering your sexuality; and also desirous of expressing independence and maturity that you think you have but you don’t actually have. I’m not the biggest fan of 14 year olds being sexually active either, but when they’re doing so with other kids, everyone is in the same boat of discovering things naturally. There is less pressure to go all the way - of course kids pressure each other, but it’s significantly easier to resist pressure from someone you see as an equal, like a classmate or school friend, vs someone you see as a superior, like a man double your age. 14 is a difficult age. You feel old enough to make “grown up” and “mature” decisions, and the idea of rules chafe at you. You’re still growing, so you’re awkward and feel unattractive. You’re probably rebelling against your parents because you feel like no one understands you. Perhaps kids in school are mean to you, tease you. You have a crush on someone who doesn’t like you back and everyone finds out and makes fun of you. You hear that Becky and Tyler went to second base under the bleachers and you haven’t even been kissed yet and Kate the class bully teases you and calls you a little baby because you’re the only one in your whole entire grade who hasn’t had a kiss yet, according to her. That’s 14.

Then there’s this grown ass man, who has his own car and his own place to live, who tells you you’re so special, and beautiful, and he can’t imagine how all the boys aren’t lining up outside your door, they must be blind, if he was in your class he’d be all over your lawn. Who flatters you and listens to you complain about how “mom and dad just don’t understand me” and tells you of course you’re not a child, you’re a young woman and soooo mature for your age. He tells you all the time if he was a little bit younger he’d be over the moon if you looked his way. You ask him why he doesn’t have a girlfriend and he says it’s because he can’t find anyone who makes him feel the way you do. And slowly you start to think, yeah, he’s right, I am a grown up! I can do what I want! And you start to pick up on his flirtatious signals, and you flirt back, and he tells you that he just can’t help himself and you think to yourself, top this Kate, I got a 30 year old man to fall for me despite himself! But it wasn’t despite himself, it was despite you. I can’t continue with this train of thought without making myself sick.

Ugh. I need a shower just after imagining this.

ETA: she may have still thought years later that she instigated things and that’s why she thinks it was consensual, or because she was the one to end things with him, so it wasn’t abuse in the “hitting her and calling her names” way. But I would bet she never stopped to think of the circumstances as to how it all started, and WHY she had to keep it a secret from parents etc.
 

Ionysis

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He had actually passed away by that time. Died of cancer a few years before. He was only in his 50s. I wonder if that had also made a difference / impacted her emotionally.
 

marymm

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Respectfully, @Jambalaya, in your situation where you knew a victim and were friends with the family, where you and her family presumably were unaware she was in a two-year sexual relationship with her theatre group's leader, where those who should have been looking out for her and protecting her in truth failed her, perhaps in the adults' minds their failure could be mitigated if they could tell themselves the child wasn't harmed and was willing ...
 

Ionysis

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Definitely a very interesting post and generated a lot of discussion @Jambalaya. Good to see people chatting and debating. I do love how people on this forum (unlike many others) are generally able to have a good debate without it getting personal or overly heated.
 

Jambalaya

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A 30 year old man or woman has no business with a 14 year old child. Full stop.

I don't think so, either. It's beyond gross. But it's just confusing when you know someone who says it was all fine. I hope she's not in denial and doesn't have a breakdown like the poor woman described above.
 

yssie

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So this is why I wouldn’t give weight to the younger party’s story. I’ll paint an example here - not saying this is 100% how it went down but statistically, yes, this is how it would have gone down.

She was 14, which means max a couple years into hitting puberty. At that age, you’re very much a hormonal cocktail - impulsive, reckless, and discovering your sexuality; and also desirous of expressing independence and maturity that you think you have but you don’t actually have. I’m not the biggest fan of 14 year olds being sexually active either, but when they’re doing so with other kids, everyone is in the same boat of discovering things naturally. There is less pressure to go all the way - of course kids pressure each other, but it’s significantly easier to resist pressure from someone you see as an equal, like a classmate or school friend, vs someone you see as a superior, like a man double your age. 14 is a difficult age. You feel old enough to make “grown up” and “mature” decisions, and the idea of rules chafe at you. You’re still growing, so you’re awkward and feel unattractive. You’re probably rebelling against your parents because you feel like no one understands you. Perhaps kids in school are mean to you, tease you. You have a crush on someone who doesn’t like you back and everyone finds out and makes fun of you. You hear that Becky and Tyler went to second base under the bleachers and you haven’t even been kissed yet and Kate the class bully teases you and calls you a little baby because you’re the only one in your whole entire grade who hasn’t had a kiss yet, according to her. That’s 14.

Then there’s this grown ass man, who has his own car and his own place to live, who tells you you’re so special, and beautiful, and he can’t imagine how all the boys aren’t lining up outside your door, they must be blind, if he was in your class he’d be all over your lawn. Who flatters you and listens to you complain about how “mom and dad just don’t understand me” and tells you of course you’re not a child, you’re a young woman and soooo mature for your age. He tells you all the time if he was a little bit younger he’d be over the moon if you looked his way. You ask him why he doesn’t have a girlfriend and he says it’s because he can’t find anyone who makes him feel the way you do. And slowly you start to think, yeah, he’s right, I am a grown up! I can do what I want! And you start to pick up on his flirtatious signals, and you flirt back, and he tells you that he just can’t help himself and you think to yourself, top this Kate, I got a 30 year old man to fall for me despite himself! But it wasn’t despite himself, it was despite you. I can’t continue with this train of thought without making myself sick.

Ugh. I need a shower just after imagining this.

ETA: she may have still thought years later that she instigated things and that’s why she thinks it was consensual, or because she was the one to end things with him, so it wasn’t abuse in the “hitting her and calling her names” way. But I would bet she never stopped to think of the circumstances as to how it all started, and WHY she had to keep it a secret from parents etc.

I need a shower too. Yuck. Perfectly said and SO completely squicky ;(
 

HS4S_2

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I have a huge issue with a 30 year old man having a sexual relationship with a 14 year old girl. I have a 16 year old daughter and I would still have issues with a 30 year old man having a sexual relationship with her. It's wrong. In no way is a girl that age mature enough mentally to be with a 30 year old man. It is predatory behavior on his part. He deserves the sentence and I actually think it's too light. He will do it again in my opinion. I also think it's wrong if it was switched genders.
 

Jambalaya

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Respectfully, @Jambalaya, in your situation where you knew a victim and were friends with the family, where you and her family presumably were unaware she was in a two-year sexual relationship with her theatre group's leader, where those who should have been looking out for her and protecting her in truth failed her, perhaps in the adults' minds their failure could be mitigated if they could tell themselves the child wasn't harmed and was willing ...

Well, except it's her who's saying she's OK, not the parents, who were appalled and did everything they could to put him away, once he was found out. Her dad bought a gun. (But he didn't use it.)
 
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