Some help with choosing a diamond online

NoviceBrit · Nov 9, 2009

Yes, I know this goes against what everyone says, but I live a long way from good value diamond centres like Hatton Garden. I went in to take a look at some setting designs and saw a few diamonds. This helped me understand a little bit more about the 4 c''s and the (very slight) difference between SI and VS. (Funny, I wasn''t blown away by the samples I saw. It was very overcast day so no sunlight, but I was expecting a burst of colours. Maybe my expectations were too high??)

I have now decided on a budget of around £2000 to £2500 max, though we have lots of other things we should spend money on so I am willing to spend less than this.

Both my GF and I are not big bling fans so my preference is a very good quality stone about .50 carat in a simple yet elegant platinum setting. What I (and I am sure she) really care about is how fascinating and sparkly the stone will be.

My question is this:

If GIA grade a stone as Cut: Excellent / Symmetry: Excellent / Polish: Excellent with either Color D or E, Clarity VVS1 or VVS2 - can I be fairly sure that it will be a very pretty stone? Yes, I know what I should really do is go and look at lots of them and compare, but this is not practical due to location. Is it possible that a stone can be dull and lifeless with that sort of grading?

Best prices I can find are about £2500 for 0.53ct, D, VVS1, Excellent (Cut, Symmetry & Polish)

If excellent (x3) is generally a sign of a very pretty stone, is it safe to drop down to E or F and VVS2 and still have confidence that what I will receive is likely to fit my requirements?

Look forward to hearing from y''all!

stone-cold11 · Nov 9, 2009

That color and clarity is high enough that unless the stone is loose, you are a professional diamond grader looking at it from the pavilion for color and through a loupe for clarity, no one will be able to tell the difference once mounted.

Cut, you will have to be careful as GIA Ex cut grade allows for some proportions that are leaky. Use this tool to eliminate poor performers. https://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

Score below a 2 is good for further review with images.

Regular Guy · Nov 9, 2009

Date: 11/9/2009 7:06:40 PM
Author: Stone-cold11

Cut, you will have to be careful as GIA Ex cut grade allows for some proportions that are leaky. Use this tool to eliminate poor performers. https://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

Score below a 2 is good for further review with images.

Ditto this, less the rest. You don''t need D or E and neither VVS...to get your pretty stone.

outatouch0 · Nov 9, 2009

Date: 11/9/2009 6:40:19 PM
Author:NoviceBrit
Yes, I know this goes against what everyone says, but I live a long way from good value diamond centres like Hatton Garden. I went in to take a look at some setting designs and saw a few diamonds. This helped me understand a little bit more about the 4 c's and the (very slight) difference between SI and VS. (Funny, I wasn't blown away by the samples I saw. It was very overcast day so no sunlight, but I was expecting a burst of colours. Maybe my expectations were too high??)

I don't think anyone advises against going and seeing diamonds in person and some people simply prefer to buy from a local BM jeweler for various reasons and that is fine.

I have now decided on a budget of around £2000 to £2500 max, though we have lots of other things we should spend money on so I am willing to spend less than this.

Both my GF and I are not big bling fans so my preference is a very good quality stone about .50 carat in a simple yet elegant platinum setting. What I (and I am sure she) really care about is how fascinating and sparkly the stone will be.

The quality of the cut is generally the biggest factor to achieve this. You can really go with G-H color and VS2-"eye-clean" SI1 stone. You wont be sacrificing much, if anything at all, on the appearance. Plus, you will bring your costs down. Lowering you cut quality in favor of higher color and clarity will generally have more of an adverse affect on appearance than the other way around.

Note also, if budget and price are concerns, platinum is considerably more expensive than white gold. Money can be saved there (more for the diamond) if you don't absolutely have to have platinum.

My question is this:

If GIA grade a stone as Cut: Excellent / Symmetry: Excellent / Polish: Excellent with either Color D or E, Clarity VVS1 or VVS2 - can I be fairly sure that it will be a very pretty stone? Yes, I know what I should really do is go and look at lots of them and compare, but this is not practical due to location. Is it possible that a stone can be dull and lifeless with that sort of grading?

Best prices I can find are about £2500 for 0.53ct, D, VVS1, Excellent (Cut, Symmetry & Polish)

If excellent (x3) is generally a sign of a very pretty stone, is it safe to drop down to E or F and VVS2 and still have confidence that what I will receive is likely to fit my requirements?

"Dropping down" to E-F VVS2 is ALMOST a contradiction in terms...

Look forward to hearing from y'all!

swingirl · Nov 9, 2009

If you are looking to buy online here are some to consider.

0.614ct F VS2

0.51ct E VVS2

0.58ct G VS1

The sparkly aspect of the stone will be determined by the cut more than the clarity and color. Are you set on very high color and clarity?

Lorelei · Nov 10, 2009

Bottom line - it is cut which determines the beauty of the stone, not the colour and clarity. But if you prefer D VVS then by all means stick with that. GIA Excellent can allow for what we call steep deep combos which can show light leakage to receive the Excellent grade so you need to evaluate these diamonds very carefully. The HCA can help you do that, for a ring stone look for scores between 1 and 2 initially. As long as the cut is great any colour and clarity grade will be shown to its best advantage.

You could try www.bestdiamonds.co.uk they are located in the Royal Exchange.

NoviceBrit · Nov 17, 2009

Hi All,

Thank you very much for your most helpful replies! I have been using the GIA report checker to get the angles and proportions and the HCA to give a general Yes/No to some candidates.

You have also convinced me that D and VVS are not necessary so I am expanding my search to anything from VS1 and F colour while maintaining Excellent cut which allows me to look at stones up-to 0.6-7ct within my budget

Perhaps you can help with two more questions:
1. I am struggling to find retailers in the UK using ASET images - can you recommend any UK retailers?
2. On the HCA you get different results when inputting the crown and pavillion % or angles. Which is more accurate?

Thanks again ^

stone-cold11 · Nov 17, 2009

Date: 11/17/2009 6:13:10 PM
Author: NoviceBrit

1. I am struggling to find retailers in the UK using ASET images - can you recommend any UK retailers?

2. On the HCA you get different results when inputting the crown and pavillion % or angles. Which is more accurate?

Thanks again ^

1) http://www.bestdiamonds.co.uk/

2) Angles are more accurate for HCA.

Lorelei · Nov 18, 2009

Date: 11/17/2009 6:13:10 PM
Author: NoviceBrit
Hi All,

Thank you very much for your most helpful replies! I have been using the GIA report checker to get the angles and proportions and the HCA to give a general Yes/No to some candidates.

You have also convinced me that D and VVS are not necessary so I am expanding my search to anything from VS1 and F colour while maintaining Excellent cut which allows me to look at stones up-to 0.6-7ct within my budget

Perhaps you can help with two more questions:
1. I am struggling to find retailers in the UK using ASET images - can you recommend any UK retailers?
2. On the HCA you get different results when inputting the crown and pavillion % or angles. Which is more accurate?

Thanks again ^

I posted bestdiamonds above, Indira uses ASET and Idealscope.

Angles are more accurate than percentages with the HCA.

NoviceBrit · Nov 21, 2009

I tried bestdiamonds but they were very much not interested in me!! Apparently they only "specialise in larger high-value diamonds at trade prices"

I have tried a couple of internet retailers (Cooldiamonds, Quality Diamonds) but they don''t use scope images, however have been helpful in helping me short-list some diamonds that fall into the 0-2 range on the HCA. I intend to view these next week, hopefully.

I might also try Blue Nile. They are quite a bit more expensive than the others. Does anyone have experience with a "Blue Nile Signature" stone? And what, if anything can I read from their GCAL reports? I have been looking through these and not really sure what to, and what not to, look for in them. Of course it just says "excellent" but this looks like an in-house report so I would expect it to!!

stone-cold11 · Nov 21, 2009

sorry to hear that.

For BN SI, what I know is what I can read on the GCAL report.

kenny · Nov 21, 2009

This came up before.
BN has a two sites, one for the US and another for UK.
We compared prices for one stone offered on both the US and UK sites and IIRC taking exchange rates, taxes and shipping into account it would cost a resident of UK the same to order from either BN site.

For that reason I see no advantage of ordering from BN's UK side over ordering from Whiteflash or Goodoldgold or James Allen or the other fine PS vendors, which do not have versions of their sites dedicated to UK.

There are many advantages too.
Great upgrade, return policies and ASET IS pics and SARIN reports etc.

Go out to see some stone of the colors and clarity grades you are considering.
That is the only way to discover YOUR comfort zone.
My comfort zone, or the comfort zone of the majority may not match yours.

You may be like many people and find that an F is a waste of money.
It is also possible that you may not like an F and insist on a D.
Please make this decision based on your own observation, not the opinions of others.

FB. · Nov 22, 2009

NoviceBrit

Being British, I sympathise with you. I know thath we get a terrible deal over here.

A GIA cert stone with cut graded as "excellent" does not guarantee a beautiful stone.
Firstly, diamond cutters often try to pack-out the stone with extra weight, yet still maintain GIA's top grade. They play the system for extra $$$ and the sparkle of the "overweight" stones suffers. The majority of GIA's top cut grade have been ba$tardi$ed into "steep/deep" (run a search on steep/deep). I have not seen many in UK shops that aren't steep/deep. I think that UK jewellers only look at the cut grade and then find teh cheapest (rubbish) that fits within GIA Excellent. It undoubtedly helps their profit margins.

My suggestion, for an almost foolproof experience, is to look for a GIA Excellent cut stone that falls within the following proportions:

Table size: maximum 58%
Total depth: maximum 61.8%
Crown angle: 34.5'
Pavilion angle: 40.8'
Girdle: thin-medium or medium-sl.thick. Avoid thin-sl.thick.

If you stray outside of those "safe" parameters, you might end up with an expensive dog. It is likely that such stones will cost somewhat more than your average GIA Excellent - but there's a reason for it.

If the stone has been finished to excellent polish and symmetry, that's likely to slightly enhance performance and shows that the cutter took pride.

Drop colour to F and clarity to VS2 and it'll look the same as D/IF to everyone except a professional using special light conditions.
Strong fluorescence can drop the price of D-F colour. Strong fluor gets a lot of bad press due to just a few bad stones and because people repeat what they hear, having never seen a strong fluor stone. Many people have never seen the beauty of a "blue white".
In fact, I recently bought a 1ct F SI1, strong fluor, 56/61/34.5/40.8.

FB. · Nov 22, 2009

Here's an extract from the certificate of my new F/SI1.
As you can see; the inclusions are so small and so few that they are not visible by eye and have no effect on sparkle.
It's the proportions that matter most. Sparkle is not affected by the inclusions once you're into VS clarity grades.

NoviceBrit · Nov 24, 2009

Hi Again!

Firstly, that you all very much for your ongoing help with this case!

I have set up some viewings of various diamonds later in the week which are in the range GIA Ex Ex Ex and HCA 0-2. Hopefully I will find something that jumps out and says "buy me!".

If I don''t, there is another option of the Blue Nile Signature Ideals which have a bit more information available online (but alas, no physical showroom in the UK). However, I am not exactly sure what to make of the information in the GCAL report. The photos are taken in black and white and as a result show large patches of darkness on the face of the stone. I am not sure if this is just colour that is not printing well, or whether it''s a warning sign?

I''ll try and attach some pictures to demonstrate:

Hmmm.. can''t attach them.. and I get an error when I try to put them in IMG code. Can someone help me with this?

stone-cold11 · Nov 24, 2009

You can''t attached images from external source. You can only attached files.

GCAL images supposedly show show the symm of the stone, but it is not using the standard H&A scope so can''t really tell much. It is probably just taken with a camera very near the stone, nothing to worry about usually with BN SI''s proportion. But I would prefer to buy from other PS vendors that provides additional images, as buying from BN you will still incur VAT and import tax, the same with any other US vendors.

NoviceBrit · Nov 24, 2009

Aha.. thanks - fixed (I hope)

This is the extract from the BN report with the images.

They have a UK operation so I only have to pay UK VAT. Though they are about 15% more expensive than other UK based internet retailers.

NoviceBrit · Nov 24, 2009

And this is what HCA says about the same stone

Lorelei · Nov 24, 2009

Personally I can't tell much from GCAL reports, having said that the diamond has definite potential from the info we have.

FB. · Nov 24, 2009

Date: 11/24/2009 10:20:24 AM
Author: NoviceBrit
Aha.. thanks - fixed (I hope)

This is the extract from the BN report with the images.

They have a UK operation so I only have to pay UK VAT. Though they are about 15% more expensive than other UK based internet retailers.

But many UK-based sellers have EGL certified stones, which are often considered to be graded rather casually. I have a few EGL stones and the jeweller said not to be surprised if they are not quite as high-grade as the report states. The jeweller said to assume that either colour, clarity, or both may (or may not) be one level lower than the report claims.
It is also noticeable to me that most UK sellers stock the steep/deep stones and other less-expensive options within GIA's Excellent cut grade. EGL's and HRD's cut grading is even broader than GIA's. However, I have not seen complaints about colour/clarity grading of HRD.

NoviceBrit · Nov 28, 2009

Well.. I had a very interesting day in London on Friday looking at many many many stones... (I think I still have stars in my eyes now and a blinding headache from both the mental strain and the 5hr drive home

)

Maybe you''re interested in my "layman''s" feedback:

It was possible to distinguish some subtle differences between various GIA XXX stones but one 0.63 that scored 5.5 on the HCA that I had asked to look at for comparison with the 1-2''s actually performed very well indeed, better than most of the 1-2''s (appeared very slightly less bright in natural light, but the fire under spots & diffused daylight was big bold and well.. firey. Very odd and of course adding to buyer confusion!! Though to clarify, all viewed (all GIA XXX) were all beautiful stones with lots of fire and scintillation - for me it was very hard to distinguish between them.

I asked one dealer for a comparison between GIA Good, Vg, and Ex. The Good appeared very slightly less "alive", but if I had been asked to pick put the VG from the X''s it would have been very difficult.

Differing views in the UK regarding AGS Ideal compared to GIA Ex - generally "Yes, AGS ID is very very good, but GIA Ex is still probably in the top 99% of diamonds, so you can''t really go wrong." One shop said that they hadn''t heard of the "steep-deep" issue

One of the dealers said that they would be happy to source stones from the global market for me. Perhaps you guys can help advise a few stones we could try to source from AGS Ideal range? These are not generally available in the UK databases.

AGS Ideal/Ideal/Ideal
0.7-0.8ct
F-G
VS1-VS2
typical sales price 3,200-3,700USD

FB. · Nov 28, 2009

Jewellery store lighting is designed to make even the worst-cut or most tinted stones look good. Clean diamonds also look particularly good.
But everyday dirt and varied lighting can take a toll on lower cut grades ability to perform.

An unmounted steep/deep looks almost as good as an AGS 0 (I prefer the look of the steep deep if unmounted). But once the steep/deep is deprived of light entering the bottom of the stone to compensate for the leakage, it develops the dark ring that can badly spoil it''s appearance.

If you want AGS certified stones, you will need to look to the USA.

Most of the "high" cut grades that are for sale in the UK are GIA triple-Ex steep/deep, or stones certified by lower-tier labs with very broad tolerances in their grading. I''ve never seen an AGS-cert stone for sale in the UK, and very few GIA stones in UK jewellers are of the true Tolkowsky-style.

Contact the jeweller who offered to get a stone from the global market and ask for:

GIA triple-ex.
Weight: slightly above a key weight level (e.g. 0.51ct, 0.76ct, 1.02ct - avoid 0.50ct, 0.75ct and 1.00ct)
Table: 55-57%
Total depth: no more than 61.8%.
Girdle: medium, or medium-slightly thick, or thin to medium. But not thin to slightly thick.
Crown angle: 34.5''
Pavilion angle: 40.8''

Lorelei · Nov 29, 2009

NoviceBrit · Nov 30, 2009

Hi Guys,

Your feedback has been most helpful.. I am looking through a list of AGS Ideals right now. A couple of final quick questions (I promise, these are the last!! Unless I have been bitten by the Sparkle-Bug and am sentanced to a very expensive hobby...)

1) Why do some AGS reports have a ASET type image on them and some not? All reports are dated 2009. The ones I can see are Diamond Quality Reports without the ASET image.
2) When considering HCA, is a score less than 1 still a good choice for a solitaire setting? I have some that are 0.7-0.8 which I assume is as good/better than 1-2 so long as it still rates Ex Ex Ex Ex/Vg?
3) If agslabs.com doesn''t have a PDF of the diamond quality report, is this a likely indication that the diamond was graded under the old system, pre-2005? And worth discarding?

Many thanks for your ongoing patience and advice!!

Some candidates:
AGS Ideal Cut (000II)
0.70 Ct
G VS2
60.3% 57%
34.5'' 40.6''
HCA 0.7 ExExExVg

AGS Ideal Cut (000II)
0.80 Ct
G VS2
61.3% 57.1%
34.4'' 40.8''
HCA 1.3 ExExExVg

stone-cold11 · Nov 30, 2009

Date: 11/30/2009 5:12:32 PM
Author: NoviceBrit
Hi Guys,

Your feedback has been most helpful.. I am looking through a list of AGS Ideals right now. A couple of final quick questions (I promise, these are the last!! Unless I have been bitten by the Sparkle-Bug and am sentanced to a very expensive hobby...)

1) Why do some AGS reports have a ASET type image on them and some not? All reports are dated 2009. The ones I can see are Diamond Quality Reports without the ASET image.

2) When considering HCA, is a score less than 1 still a good choice for a solitaire setting? I have some that are 0.7-0.8 which I assume is as good/better than 1-2 so long as it still rates Ex Ex Ex Ex/Vg?

3) If agslabs.com doesn''t have a PDF of the diamond quality report, is this a likely indication that the diamond was graded under the old system, pre-2005? And worth discarding?

Many thanks for your ongoing patience and advice!!

Some candidates:

AGS Ideal Cut (000II)

0.70 Ct

G VS2

60.3% 57%

34.5'' 40.6''

HCA 0.7 ExExExVg

AGS Ideal Cut (000II)

0.80 Ct

G VS2

61.3% 57.1%

34.4'' 40.8''

HCA 1.3 ExExExVg

1) Different format. AGSL is in the process of transitioning from DQD/DQR format to Pt/Gold report format. Pt/DQD are performance based cut graded, Pt report format can have ASET image if the vendor request for it. Old DQR format do not have cut grading. The newer DQR and Gold report has a proportion based cut grading similar to GIA.

2) HCA score is use as a rejection tool, not a selection tool, lower score not necessary better. IS/ASET image will further the weeding process.

3)No, that is a new service, only saw these pdf reports this year.

NoviceBrit · Nov 30, 2009

Thanks for the quick reply.

All that are available from my shortlist are the proportion based grading reports - no ASET/IS images available, unfortunately. It seems that these are only available for the premium branded diamonds like Whiteflash ACA etc.. Constrictions of time, location and supply mean I will have to choose from the AGS reports as they are rather than schedule a physical viewing.

I figure that any of the AGS 000II is likely going to be as good/better than the GIA 3X that are available from the UK retailers?

Candidate 1 I listed above is very very cheap... is price likely to be an indication of problems? It scores 4X on HCA and is 1860USD (no tax).

stone-cold11 · Nov 30, 2009

Do you have the AGS report number and the exact carat weight as listed on the report?

Lorelei · Dec 1, 2009

Date: 11/30/2009 5:12:32 PM
Author: NoviceBrit
Hi Guys,

Your feedback has been most helpful.. I am looking through a list of AGS Ideals right now. A couple of final quick questions (I promise, these are the last!! Unless I have been bitten by the Sparkle-Bug and am sentanced to a very expensive hobby...)

1) Why do some AGS reports have a ASET type image on them and some not? All reports are dated 2009. The ones I can see are Diamond Quality Reports without the ASET image. In a nutshell, new AGS Platinum reports which are replacing the older AGS Diamond Quality Documents ( performance based cut grading) have the computer generated ASET image, older AGS reports do not. AGS Gold reports replace the AGS Diamond Quality Reports which are proportion based for cut grading.
2) When considering HCA, is a score less than 1 still a good choice for a solitaire setting? I have some that are 0.7-0.8 which I assume is as good/better than 1-2 so long as it still rates Ex Ex Ex Ex/Vg? Scores less than 1 can be prone to obstruction issues as these are often shallower proportion combos, between 1 and 2 is cherry for a ring stone normally.
3) If agslabs.com doesn't have a PDF of the diamond quality report, is this a likely indication that the diamond was graded under the old system, pre-2005? And worth discarding?

Many thanks for your ongoing patience and advice!!

Some candidates:
AGS Ideal Cut (000II)
0.70 Ct
G VS2
60.3% 57%
34.5' 40.6'
HCA 0.7 ExExExVg

AGS Ideal Cut (000II)
0.80 Ct
G VS2
61.3% 57.1%
34.4' 40.8'
HCA 1.3 ExExExVg

And both diamonds look very promising above.

FB. · Dec 1, 2009

Date: 11/30/2009 5:12:32 PM
Author: NoviceBrit
Hi Guys,

2) When considering HCA, is a score less than 1 still a good choice for a solitaire setting? I have some that are 0.7-0.8 which I assume is as good/better than 1-2 so long as it still rates Ex Ex Ex Ex/Vg?

It has been well documented that scores between 1-2 are the safest options.
There are reports that stones with scores below 1 can be "too perfect" and can have some undesirable characteristics such as obstruction - not always, but sometimes.

Lord Summerisle · Dec 1, 2009

Date: 11/24/2009 10:20:24 AM
Author: NoviceBrit
Aha.. thanks - fixed (I hope)

This is the extract from the BN report with the images.

They have a UK operation so I only have to pay UK VAT. Though they are about 15% more expensive than other UK based internet retailers.

To be honest, there is very little in it.
If i take as an example that a friend asked me about. a BN princess diamond Stock # LD01532505 with the ring stock # 8026

in the UK store thats £592 for the diamond, and £200 for the ring. totalling £792 ex VAT, or £910.80 inc VAT
have a look on the US site and you get $953 for the diamond, and $315 for the ring, making $1268 or £768.48 at current exchange rates.
now add on the UK taxes (2.5% because precious metal is involved, and VAT at 15%) you get £905 inc tax and duty.
of course there would be a slight difference in that Blue Nile UK is free postage, while BN.com would charge postage, plus FedEx would charge £10 for paying the customs on your behalf.

Say that - other US sellers which are recommended on here can beat BN''s diamonds on cut quality and customer service (being smaller companies, they can concentrate on you a bit more, and they have the diamonds in house so if you want to talk over the diamonds, they can have the diamond infront of them while they talk to you.) and can also get to the same price point once tax and shipping is taken into account.
Importing is dead easy too.

Some help with choosing a diamond online

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