So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures inside

[Gypsy]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Okay I'm totally in synch with whoever suggested a newbie tutorial.

I like smaller knifes. 6 inch blade is my max. I use it for everything. From meat to veggies. And I'd love a recommendation of a nice knife for me.

And one for hubby... classic japanese knifes don't work for Hubby's grip...that's why we got him the Ken Onion. Are there other hybrid knives out there that combine the Japanese steel with a more western grip?

Great thread!

 

[Arkteia]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Beautiful knife! From what I know about Damascus steel, it must be very, very expensive...

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Thanks, will go through all the links and have a look. I definitely know I can do better than Shun (although I've always had quite good deals on mine - the steak knife set had been sitting in the same store for 3 years - not the JKC - and so I got a massive discount when I finally offered to take them off their hands. ) but my issue is finding ones that I can feel - heft and handle shape are high on my list of requirements - and that is very tricky online.

Great idea on a possible bespoke block. Are blocks good for knives? What is the recommended optimum method of storage? The Magblock is sadly out due to lack of wall space and a kid...

Magblocks are optimum. No contact with the sharpened edge, easy access.

Blocks are good. They have slotted blocks, horizontal blocks (as mentioned), and drawer blocks that are basically made to fit INSIDE one of your kitchen drawers. So if you measure up the space in your kitchen drawer nicely, the craftsman can make a block for you that will drop into your drawer and hold all the custom knives you have. With the blanks, they would normally make shapes that would fit average knives of certain descriptions (e.g. 10" chef, bread knife, parer etc)

With a custom block, it is the same, you can have enough space to put all the knives you own, and you can request slots for another 5, 6, 7, 9... however many you want. Slots for honing steels, kitchen scissors etc. The only major downside for blocks is if it is not sized properly, the knife can be wedged in each time you return it to the block, which wears heavily on the cutting edge. Also the block material should be wood, preferably end grain to be gentle on the knife edge. Also, if the block is made badly, a knife could be returned wet, and the water would sit there for days with the knife and not dry (less likely with wood blocks), or water from other slots would pool and allow knives at the bottom of the block to rust.

I personally don't like blocks, as I don't like the idea of drawing the blade edge over wood 2 times each time I take out and return the knife.

There is one more option, which is a rack: http://korin.com/Wooden-Knife-Stand-6pc where your knives can rest on the stand. So semi display, semi open. Whether it is in a block or on a stand, a child can still pick it up and hurt themselves. So it is more educating proper knife skills rather than 'hiding' them away. Child safe drawers with drawer blocks or magblocks up high against the backsplash of your kitchen could work for child proofing. But generally the kitchen is pretty hazardous to kids.

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

I'm not surprised there are so many owners of fine knives here. The people here definitely appreciate craftsmanship and know if you buy the right thing the first time it will save you money in the long run, that applies to most areas of life.

Can I threadjack to ask some advice? I'm doing everything with my Shun Classic 3.5" paring and I'm thrilled with the quality (having only entry-level henckels and faberware to compare it to) however things like cabbage and pumpkins it's just not long enough for.

*What's a good all-purpose knife for a vegetarian to fill in where the paring can't?
*Will I be astouded by the additional utility if i get a set?
*Can I get a better value/quality knife than the below in the sub $150 range?

http://www.amazon.com/Shun-DM0701-Classic-Utility-Knife/dp/B0000Y7KFY/ref=pd_bxgy_k_text_b

*Y'all will probably laugh, but is there a vegetable peeler that does for peeling what japanese steel has done for my home cooking? I peel just about everything because vegetables from the markets here come covered in filth and tropical bateria.

Arrgh. My window closed so I have to start over. Sigh. Sorry briefer reply now

1. Yes, a vegetable cleaver (japanese call them nakiri - light and thin as it is only meant for veg), a utility knife which has length which makes certain tasks easier (Petty knives in japanese english lingo), or a short chef's knife like a 180mm (7.2inch) chef's knife.

Basically your petty will suffer when you need to do chopping jobs like herbs, diced veg, julienne etc. Also when you need to make longer slices where the length is a disadvantage. So all the above would help.

2. No, large sets are generally useless. 90% of the knives won't be used. So it is better to go after either 2 knife sets which have the exact 2 knives you are looking for, or buy each knife individually.

3. Yes, easily. Some examples (I'm doing this again!)
http://korin.com/Inox-two-piece-set?sc=7&category=17358 A nice 2 knife set, stainless steel, a utility and a chef, both for $188 + Shipping (unknown)

A Petty for a budget. Stainless Japanese steel. FKM Petty 150mm
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/FKMSeries.html#WIDTH: 400px; HEIGHT: 236px

Just a petty, Hattori HD petty 150mm, with some faux damascus patterning for bling
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HDSeries.html $129+$7 shipping

3 knife set with a parer, a utility and a nakiri
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/JCKSpecialKnifeSet.html $335 + $7 shipping for all 3

These are some examples.

Yes, you can get a peeler that has a sharpenable blade. Kai also sells one with changeable heads that is pretty decent. But I would just get a ceramic peeler. Ceramic blades are crap for knives (can't sharpen them, brittle edge) but they are very decent for peelers as they don't interact with your fruit and veg and are quite suitable for this one purpose and are cheap.

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Julie, what is D&R?

Pandora, what is JKC?

Tristan, what's WMF and EMS?

WMF is as Julie said, a german mass manufacturer of kitchen appliances and cutlery. EMS is a method of courier service that Koki uses from Japan to USA for his knives at $7 per order from JapaneseChefKnives (he absorbs the rest of the cost from his margin)

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

That is a really fascinating forum.

Apparently blue patina on Japanese knives is desirable, and people can and do force it?! Just as valuable as patina on an antique ring...


They really do need some newbie tutorials though!

Yes. Patina threads - http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...............A-patina-thread.&highlight=patina

Some patinas are amazing.

This only happens to CARBON STEEL knives. Not japanese knives. There are sabatier carbons as well. Carbon steel is different from stainless steel. So they will state what a knife is made of. Why people like carbon is (over simplified summary alert): it sharpens easier, and it gets sharper in a shorter time. But it does take lots of care, as it will rust if left in water.

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Darn you Tristan.
Now I'm thinking of getting a Japanese knife.
Why did you have to introduce me to these expensive specialized things?
What have I ever done to you?

I'm thinking of an 8" chef, and a paring knife.
I'd like to select them with the intention of them being the only knives I will buy because I notice those are 90% of what I've used in the past.
I am certainly no gourmet sushi chef.
I just want to have an orgasm cutting a paper a tomato into tissue paper-thin slices with no force and minimum movement - just by placing the knife near the tomato.
I don't want to pay for anything custom or a prestigious name or any expensive handle material or design.
How beautiful, cool or impressive the blade looks means nothing to me. (NOW I say that! )
I just want function, as in the finest sharpest blade forged from the finest steel, that will stay sharp as long as possible.
I don't care about susceptibility to rust since, even though I'm accustomed to stainless steel knives, I'm willing to care for a high-carbon hard steel knife properly, obsessively even.

I am totally ignorant about all those shapes of japanese blades and handles.
What are the pluses and minuses of the blades that are beveled only on one side?
I see some 8" chefs that have a curve to the blade like I'm used to and others are straight.
Many handles on even expensive Japanese knives look very non-ergonomic - and just like an uncomfortable straight cylinder.
I don't want to buy one knife and learn I should have bought another.
I also don't want to just buy something similar to what I'm used to; I want to have an open mind.
Do you know of any Youtube tutorials on using these knives or an overview of shapes and types of Japanese knives?
I'm reading Kitchen Knife Forum but unlike Pricescope they don't have Advanced Tutorial to introduce noobs.

Aww you got me on FCDs, what's a knife hobby in return?

Sharpness is a function of sharpening. Not of the knife alone. So of course the materials matter, but after a certain point it becomes academic if you can't sharpen it. Various metals have various qualities. Some are resistant to corrosion, some stay sharper for longer but are harder to sharpen, some are made thinner, some thicker etc etc. There is NO ultimate knife. Same as how there is no ultimate FCD. Reds don't matter squat if someone only likes yellow.

Single bevelled blades need a new cutting style. They are sharper, because the angle is sharper. one side is basically flat, so the total angle is only from 1 side, not both. e.g. 7deg angle on one side, the entire knife is sharpened at 7deg. If it were a 2 sided knife, it would be 7deg X2, which is 14 deg, so less acute and angle, and hence possibly less sharp. But it is a functional blade, they use it mostly for slicing, and portioning protein. A bit too far out if you don't do sushi. Interesting, but far out. The japanese use it to do sashimi, and some veg prep. They have special cutting styles to utilise it.

For you, I would still hazard a recommendation. I would try a very good midtech stainless. Like this one: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/dethitktr24w.html A bit pricey, but it has pretty much everything going for it. Ergonomics, a good steel, good fit and finish.

I would buy it and immediately send it to Dave (different dave i think from Julie's) http://www.japaneseknifesharpening.com/sharpening.html ask for a Level 2 sharpening - $40 he's in the USA so return shipping too, and then you'll have your ultimate knife for now. It should scare the bejezus out of you. And be a benchmark for what you will attain. He is very well regarded by almost all the chefs on the forum (he's the forum owner) and he knows his stuff. I've seen the stuff he pulls off for repairs etc. If you are curious, you can send him your wustorf as well, just to see what he can make of it. And how it degrades compared to your new toy.

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Many handles on even expensive Japanese knives look very non-ergonomic - and just like an uncomfortable straight cylinder.

I don't want to buy one knife and learn I should have bought another.

I also don't want to just buy something similar to what I'm used to; I want to have an open mind.
Do you know of any Youtube tutorials on using these knives or an overview of shapes and types of Japanese knives?
I'm reading Kitchen Knife Forum but unlike Pricescope they don't have Advanced Tutorial to introduce noobs.

The stupid thing about handles is this: You are not supposed to hold them. I know. I know. Its stupid right? There is a bloody handle there... You need to google "pinch grip" and realise that handles are just there to confuse non chefs. Watch any professionally trained chef handle a knife and you'll soon realise if you pay attention that they aren't holding just the handles. Their fingers extend past the handles unto the blades. So it is actually the first giveaway whether someone is pro or not just watching them hold a knife.

The japanese are smarter in that they made it a non issue, but having a handle which can be used in a pinch, as well as in a hold/modified hold for fine work with the tip or as required for whatever. So their handles are either D handes (flatter on one side, rounded on the other) or octagonal cylinders, with more points to allow a good grip for the right amount of torque for certain tasks.

I'm loving the japanese handles now. After I learned I'm not even supposed to hold a handle.

Oh, and you'll never know if you have bought the best knife, or THE knife. Everyone has knives that are great for them, and not for others. So... good luck?

There are some sticky's on the forums that explain a lot of basics, knife parts, knife types etc all over the forum. And there is a media reel with nice videos of cutting. Yes cutting. For the hardcore. Oh, and lots of sharpening videos too.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Okay I'm totally in synch with whoever suggested a newbie tutorial.

I like smaller knifes. 6 inch blade is my max. I use it for everything. From meat to veggies. And I'd love a recommendation of a nice knife for me.

And one for hubby... classic japanese knifes don't work for Hubby's grip...that's why we got him the Ken Onion. Are there other hybrid knives out there that combine the Japanese steel with a more western grip?

Great thread!

I think the gyutos are more like a western knife than a santoku in terms of the cutting action you can achieve with them - ie more rolling.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

That knife stand is brilliant. I might well be tempted to go for something like that - heck if you have beautiful knives then you may as well show them off and I like the look a lot better than the Magblocks.

I don't let my knives near anything other than wood - why do they sell glass chopping boards btw - so whatever I get will need to be made of that. The guy at the JKC in London was working on a swivelling knife block last time I was in there, so that you could have the knife at different angles - was very beautiful but had teething issues at the time.

 

[risingsun]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Thank you so much for posting your gorgeous knife and all of the links. I have a Global chef's knife, which has a very thin edge to it. I really don't know the best way to sharpen it. When it has a good edge, it's lethal! My daughter is a chef. I would love to give a her a custom designed knife. She is very particular about her knives and what she prefers. I would need to have her involved in the project. Would it cost me an arm and a leg...or just an arm I'm going back over the thread to bookmark the sites you mentioned.

 

[rubyprincess]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Tristan I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your posts -- you are so upbeat, funny and just an all around cool poster! Love the knife and the FCD!

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Tristan I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your posts -- you are so upbeat, funny and just an all around cool poster! Love the knife and the FCD!

Awwww Thanks! I'm all shy now. Flatterer.

I'm sure not everyone feels that way, but I'm happy at least a few read what I'm posting. I'll just keep at it then.

 

[kenny]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

As I'm considering which knife to buy I've been wondering . . . do you think anyone has had 12 FCDs set into the end of the handle?

I've been wondering what to do with them.

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Oh, going into Wa handles now are we?

You're not the first to have thought of it. http://www.knife-depot.com/blog/the-worlds-most-expensive-knives/

Nobody has done it with FCDs though.

If you are serious, i would contact Devin Thomas directly - they also make mokume steel rings for wedding bands - very cool. He is also the guy who at one point taught Bob Kramer about Damascus. So he is the best man on earth to do this for you I think. haha.

I wouldn't put them in the butt. I would put them in a spacer or on the bolster.

But I know you're kidding.

 

[kenny]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Isn't $51,000 the record for a Bob Kramer knife?

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

That much? I thought it was $23K.

Anyway, 3 years ago it was $600. haha. Who needs red diamonds. Just buy a knife and let it appreciate.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Is there a resale market for 'designer' knives?

Kenny, the only issue you might have is if you want to use the end of the knife to bash garlic! If that isn't needed then you could always have a set with a different FCD in each to colour-code them. 'Paring knife? Ah, yes, the orange pear...'

 

[kenny]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Tristan, what's the difference between white and blue steel?

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Is there a resale market for 'designer' knives?

Kenny, the only issue you might have is if you want to use the end of the knife to bash garlic! If that isn't needed then you could always have a set with a different FCD in each to colour-code them. 'Paring knife? Ah, yes, the orange pear...'

Haha, i think that's brilliant, except that if you can't tell the difference between a paring and chef knife but need to look at diamonds to tell...

Yes, there IS a resale market for designer knives. Collectors and chefs and some rich folks like them. Not every one increases value. Typically you would lose money with every purchase.

However, sometimes, when a great smith retires, or someone reaches a new pinnacle of marketability - you earn money. Big time.

For example, with Japanese knives, a few brands crept up in price a lot vs a few years ago. If you knife is new or almost new, you can sell it for maybe $50 less than retail, which can be quite a nice profit. Nenohi crept up in price a lot. If you have an OLD shigefusa, with his old symbol, that's worth a pretty penny and more than twice what you would have paid then. Hattori's KDs also increase price 3 fold since a number of years ago. Kejiro Doi's knives prices doubled in the last year.

For Hattori, he is 62 (I think) and hardly makes knives anymore for customers. Custom orders yes, but extremely expensive vs previously. Kejiro Doi is 81, and has retired after a career spanning 68 years of smithing. So his final batch is done and numbered. It is double the price of what I bought from him previously. His son has taken over (Junior is 56... imagine being 'junior' for 50 years...) but sells under a different name to differentiate from Dad. Still very well regarded.

The classic example is Bob Kramer. He was selling for $600 per 10inch damascus chef knife around 5-6 years ago. He was then featured on CNBC I think, and also national geographic, and rerun. Each time he was featured, demand skyrocketed and so did price. Today, you need a lottery system, to Wait for your turn to WAIT for your order in his order waitlist, which typically takes 3-4 years. So yes, you are waiting for a chance to wait for your knife. If he took all the orders now that the market wants, even at today's prices - he would pass on before he can complete the orders. It would be impossible for him to make them all.

So if you buy direct from him when your turn comes up IF it comes up... you would get a knife today for around $5K for a 10inch damascus. You can immediately go on Ebay and auction it off for at least 10-20K. Immediate profits. If you bought 4 or 5 of them 6 years ago, your profits are big too.

But these are the exception not the norm. Knives are tools. You can earn money off straight edge razors with collectors too. Same with some antiques etc. But generally, you would lose money with each sale.

 

[TristanC]

Re: So I just commissioned a kitchen knife... Pictures insid

Tristan, what's the difference between white and blue steel?

They are two different metals from the hitachi steel factory. White steel because is called Shirogami (steel) - shiro is white. Blue is Aogami.

Both are carbon steels, meaning they will rust if left exposed to water.

Both are popular with high end knives. Generally white steel is used more frequently and it is slightly 'softer' or easier to work so it is easier to sharpen, and easier to get ridiculously sharp. Blue steel's benefit is typically longer edge retention, but is more difficult to sharpen.

This is the LAYMAN's explanation, and is also the Majority explanation. Some people report differing findings, but by and large this is what people claim. And by people, i mean chefs and knifenuts.

And these are by no means the be all and end all of Japanese steels. There is a whole new world out there.

Oh just to warn you, high carbon steels WILL react to food. So acidic foods, even meats etc will have a 'taint' from the metal reactivity. Until a patina forms, whether forced patina or regular patina that builds up over time. So cutting fruits/veg, some meats will leave a 'taste' that people sensitive to metals will be able to discern. Over time, this will go away and a nice patina will be there.

Read this if you want much more detail than I am able to provide you. http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/articles/kkchoser/index.shtml Your question is answered on the link Kitchen Knife Steel FAQ, page 3 I think, high carbon steels.