Smaller but better

[jyeh74]

Hi folks,

As you may have known, I am in the market for a 2.7-3ct, H color, SI1, GIA xxx round brilliant.
I spoke to someone who has been in the industry for awhile. They suggested that I go higher in color. They thought H is too low and doesnt hold their value (looks yellow). Maybe my eye isn't that great, but I recall G and H to be pretty white.

They suggested I go 2.5ct, F color, SI1 and doesn't have to be GIA xxx. They agreed that excellent cut is important, but not necesarily everything else. You perfectionists may disagree, but once its on the prong, no one really asks the specs. A better color is more important in their eyes, than 0.2-0.5 ct bigger.

I did a quick search, and most specs are going to be around $40-45k. Thoughts?

 

[armywife13]

I don't see an issue purchasing an H color diamond. It is still listed in the near colorless range. Unless you are very color sensitive, you should be fine. I would also disagree with the idea of not getting a GIA XXX, having a excellent cut, polish and symmetry is more important to me than the color difference between an H and F.

 

[jyeh74]

Yeah, maybe it was just me, but I thought an H looked pretty white. But they were saying based on the volume of diamonds they see pushed out to the retailers and from a smart money purchase, the D-E-F were always higher in demand (color is the first thing people notice). But the H are considered low color grades and not good investment. Better to go with smaller diamond and higher color and maintaining excellent cut.

 

[Christina...]

I disagree, once the ring is set people may not ask what the specs are, but they will sure notice if it blings or not. The cut is what is going to give you all the amazing light performance not the color. Personally, I wouldn't pay the huge premium for an F color either. For most people H VS2 is a sweet spot for size and value. Upside down and side by side you may notice slight difference in color but once the ring is set, it becomes very very difficult to differentiate between each color grade until you get below an H. Of course it depends on how color sensitive you are. For me, cut first, eye clean second and as white as the budget allows last.

 

[jyeh74]

Let me clarify, they stated that cut needs to be excellent, but the other, symmetry and polish doesn't have to be. Very good is ok. Once its set in the prong, can you really tell symmetry from excellent and very good? Maybe/maybe not.
They also added that in H or lower, sometimes its better to have a little flourescence to mask the yellow.

Paying for F color from H color is a big leap. Going to G color.....not sure.

 

[Mico]

they're right, as long as cut stays excellent you can go down to very good symmetry and very good polish - your eye won't see the difference... just like your eye wont see the difference between a set higher color.

F/G seem to be the highest most on this site go, there's a good video of ira from thetruthaboutdiamonds website that compares a set H to a higher set stone. I don't remember how high but I'm thinking it was a D or an E, and he took it around NYC asking people which diamond was more expensive. Some people picked the H over the higher color!

might be a good video for you to check out

 

[TitanCi]

Jyeh, you know most, if not all, people on PS value cut over the other aspects of diamonds. That's what's great about this community. No one talks smack about what color or clarity you have, but they help one find the best cut diamond. Christina is right, everyone notices how much a diamond shines and sparkles, so the advice given is sound.

You're getting loads of info from all sides of the table, I think in the end it's best to do what you're comfortable with and happy with, regardless of what PS says or thinks, or the jewelers.

Btw, regarding the jewelers at Asian Garden Mall, they have quite a bit of stones there and can call certain stones in if you like... go with the bigger names there like Ngoc Quang since you're getting larger stones and it may not cost you to call them in. They offer cash discounts/no tax too for cash. Good luck!

 

[purplesilk]

The e-ring somehow reflects your culture: some people think the bigger the better, some people think the higher color and the higher clarity the better...no one is right, no one is wrong...it's just taste and cultural background.
From what I've learned here, Americans like large diamonds, Asians like D IF diamonds.

 

[Haven]

If I were you I'd look at a lot of D, E, F, G, and H diamonds when set. Try to compare diamonds that are relatively similar in weight, and all with excellent cuts. You can judge for yourself whether you prefer a higher color to the H.

Some people are definitely more color sensitive than others. My DH has eagle eyes, and he can tell the difference very easily. I cannot.

"Better" is a relative term, and you have to define its parameters for yourself. Have fun!

 

[Christina...]

Let me clarify, they stated that cut needs to be excellent, but the other, symmetry and polish doesn't have to be. Very good is ok. Once its set in the prong, can you really tell symmetry from excellent and very good? Maybe/maybe not.
They also added that in H or lower, sometimes its better to have a little flourescence to mask the yellow.

Paying for F color from H color is a big leap. Going to G color.....not sure.

Yes, I agree that VG VG for polish and symmetry are enough. As for flourescence, it can help lower color stones appear whiter in UV lighting conditions, but for stones graded H or better flourescense is more of a cool characteristic and better value, than it is helpful in masking any color.

I agree with Haven that you should look at many many diamonds of different color grades and similar cut that are set before making a decision. You may love a DEF diamond and feel that the trade off in color/size is worth it, or you may feel that the thousands of dollars premium isn't worth giving up size, but only YOU can decide that. I'd also consider what your g/f may prefer. Does she prefer size? Or does she prefer a smaller stone that is colorless? flawless? It's true that there is no 'right' choice, it's very much a matter of preference, but it should be YOUR preference not one suggested by someone else.

 

[jyeh74]

Thanks for the posts everyone. I appreciate everyone's feedback. Ultimately, I will have to compare similiar sized rocks across F,G,H color to see if there is a difference. I think H is the absolute LOWEST I will go. As I increase in color grade, the rock of this size increases by about $5-8k per color. It becomes even more when you go from SI1 to a VS2. Extra $10k for clarity is not as important to me. I just have to get the color and combination of carats down pat. i.e. 2.5ct or closer to 2.7 ct or 3 ct.

 

[Christina...]

When your evaluating the color, I'd recommend doing it while the diamond is set. Many jewelers will show you two different color grades upside down against a white background, and while this is the correct way to assess color, it's not indicative of how the stone will look in it's setting. IMO when considering spending thousands more for a single color grade, I'd want to know what the visual difference was in the setting that I would be observing the diamond in.

This is a great video comparing the different color grades side by side, you may find it helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcmSj8dOLRI

edit: this is a cool tool too.
http://www.zoara.com/diamonds/color

 

[jyeh74]

What do you think about this one? STONE 1
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2789101.htm

GIA cert
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/certificate.aspx?idno=2789101&file_name=1
HCA calc is giving me a 2.7 though. There is one inclusion in the middle. Right in the middle! But otherwise looks clean.


Here is another one. STONE 2
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2767587.htm

GIA cert
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/certificate.aspx?idno=2767587&file_name=1
HCA gives 5.5 here. More inclusions right in the middle. This one looks worse than the first one.


I think I will pass on this one. Looks like a lot of inclusions. STONE 3
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2772052.htm

GIA cert
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/certificate.aspx?idno=2772052&file_name=1
HCA gives me 1.9


This is the last one. STONE 4
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2758278.htm

GIA cert
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/certificate.aspx?idno=2758278&file_name=1
HCA calc gives me 1.4


I'm guessing stone 1 is the best. What do you guys think?

 

[Christina...]

I like this one better...

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2400044.htm

I know it's an H and you are having trouble with that, and it's under 2.5, but I promise that you won't see an appreciable visual difference in the face up size....it will literally be able the width of two sheets of copy paper smaller than your first choice. Big deal right?! You're about to spend an enormous amount of money of this stone, and I just want to see you get the most beautiful diamond that you can.

I'll go back and look around, the one I linked is just one that came up as an alternative, but let me take a peek for you and I'll be right back.

 

[Christina...]

Ok, I can't remember how you felt about flourescense, but most PSers prefer that their stones have it, and it's a really cool characteristic of a diamond, and I can guarantee that this one is in no way negatively impacted by it. And it's my number one choice for you....TA DA...

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.618-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104059065019

It's HUGE, its beautiful, it will knock her socks offs! It's an H, but the flour, often makes diamonds appear whiter and brighter than their graded color. I really can't think of a thing wrong with this stone!

 

[jyeh74]

Hi Christina, i really dont need a vs2. Id rather get a higher color for the same or less price. Is there anything wrong with the ones I found?

I would prefer no fluorescence at all. Comments are welcome for the four stones I found.

 

[Christina...]

It's hard to judge the clarity of a stone based on the reports any of these could be eye clean or none of them. Based on the information you have and if I had to choose two to call in, I guess I'd choose #3 and #4, only because they scored well on the HCA, so they are predicted to have optimal light performance. Stone #1 looks the cleanest on the plot so I can see why you are leaning toward that one, but if that crystal is included, then it likely won't be eye clean. All of them would need to be evaluated by a gemologist though, because each has inclusions that may or may not affect the stone.

 

[jyeh74]

Can you trust HCA? I've been told by some JA and WF folks that HCA is a marketing thing, that you cannot rely on it because it is an "updated tool". Just some feedback I received.

 

[yssie]

Can you trust HCA? I've been told by some JA and WF folks that HCA is a marketing thing, that you cannot rely on it because it is an "updated tool". Just some feedback I received.

HCA is just a tool like any other - it has its uses and limitations. It was designed as a weeding tool to help you sift through a giant inventory by making quick judgments about if a group of stones are likely worth further investigation. Of course, the downside of quick judgments is that they're incomplete, so HCA sorts at the expense of promising stones that require more information to identify. HCA was not designed to help you select a particular stone from a few options.

So you can "trust" HCA to tell you if a given stone is likely worth further investigation.
You cannot "trust" HCA to tell you if a given stone is nice (ie. HCA < 2 != definitively Good).
You cannot "trust" HCA to tell you if a given stone is not nice (ie. HCA > 2 != definitively Bad, esp. when say HCA < 3 or even 3.5)

Once you have more info, pictures, a trusted review you're out of HCA-is-useful territory

 

[TitanCi]

Dude, jyeh - where you been man? I haven't seen you post in such a long time that I thought you already sealed the deal, man! Still haven't found "the one", huh?

 

[Christina...]

Can you trust HCA? I've been told by some JA and WF folks that HCA is a marketing thing, that you cannot rely on it because it is an "updated tool". Just some feedback I received.

HCA is just a tool like any other - it has its uses and limitations. It was designed as a weeding tool to help you sift through a giant inventory by making quick judgments about if a group of stones are likely worth further investigation. Of course, the downside of quick judgments is that they're incomplete, so HCA sorts at the expense of promising stones that require more information to identify. HCA was not designed to help you select a particular stone from a few options.

So you can "trust" HCA to tell you if a given stone is likely worth further investigation.
You cannot "trust" HCA to tell you if a given stone is nice (ie. HCA < 2 != definitively Good).
You cannot "trust" HCA to tell you if a given stone is not nice (ie. HCA > 2 != definitively Bad, esp. when say HCA < 3 or even 3.5)

Once you have more info, pictures, a trusted review you're out of HCA-is-useful territory

This is exactly my point about not having enough information to make an informed decision. It's impossible to predict the beauty of a stone based an the report and HCA alone. But because HCA is the only tool that you have at your disposal at this time, it's likely worth pursuing the stones that score very well, does it mean you should buy them? Absolutely not! But it does mean that having them called in for evaluation would be a good next move.

 

[jyeh74]

I'm looking at F colors now for better appreciation. I saw this one today in person. It looked clean and the inclusions are not in the middle, but mostly on the sides. But it scored terrible on the HCA = 5.4

Factor Grade
Light Return Good
Fire Good
Scintillation Good
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 5.4 - Good - Only if price is your main criterion


http://www.brilliance.com/diamonds/2.34-carat-round-f-color-si1-clarity-super-ideal-cut-gia-certified-loose-diamond-D12386607#tab-report

I noticed anything in the 2.3-2.45 ct range will be $32k-$35k for a F color, Si1, GIA xxx.
When you go to 2.5 ct, it jumps to $38-$42k starting. I don't know if the extra $6-8k is worth it for 0.2 cts more!! Even though you won't notice the difference from a 2.5ct next to a 2.3 or 2.4 ct. You guys are right, the best deals are slightly under 2.5 ct. Once you hit that half carat, the price doesn't seem like its worth it.

 

[jyeh74]

Dude, jyeh - where you been man? I haven't seen you post in such a long time that I thought you already sealed the deal, man! Still haven't found "the one", huh?

No not yet. Still looking at various ones. I walked through with a seller through RavNet today. Didn't find many that scored well on the HCA. Most came back at 4-5 scores.

 

[Christina...]

Do you have an opportunity to view an AGS ideal cut diamond, (doesn''t matter the size of the stone) side by side with the one that you viewed in person today? Since AGS0 diamonds have already been evaluated for their light performance and have scored well, this may be a good way for you to evaluate the performance of the stone that HCA is giving a low score. It will also demonstrate to you what a diamond with superior performance should look like.

 

[jyeh74]

I have not, most retailers around here only carry EGL and GIA. AGS is tough to come by. Just because it scored 5.4 does not mean its a bad stone. We would have to have the retailer do an ASET image for us to really understand it right?

Christina, they are asking about $33k for that one.

 

[Christina...]

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1393959.asp $41.700, a bit more than you wanted to spend but it may be a nice choice.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1480371.asp $32,350 HCA 1.3

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1466824.asp $35,600 HCA 1.4

These would still need to be evaluated to see if they are eye clean to your standards, and you would need to request IS images. JA will do three for free for you and place the stones on hold while you wait for the additional information and the gemologists opinion.

 

[Christina...]

I have not, most retailers around here only carry EGL and GIA. AGS is tough to come by. Just because it scored 5.4 does not mean its a bad stone. We would have to have the retailer do an ASET image for us to really understand it right?

Christina, they are asking about $33k for that one.

No, it doesn't mean that it's a bad stone. HCA is quite critical of pavilion angles over 41, and GIA rounds the diamonds measurements as well, thats why HCA scores are ony preliminary. I think that Ideal scope images are better when looking for rounds, but if you can only get an ASET then that will work as well.

I think that once you have had an opportunity to view many different stones side by side that your eyes will tell you which you visual prefer and you will begin to be able to eliminate options. That's really whats most important, that you/she thinks that the diamond is beautiful. There is an article that Jon from GOG wrote about a GIA excellent cut that scored poorly on every test he gave it, but visually 9/10 people preferred it over one that was ideal in every way according to the 'tests'. So really, only your eyes can judge in the end. I'll try to find the article for you..brb

ETA I forgot, I think the second stone has flor. sorry! Also did anyone mention yet that you can purchase an IS so that you can use it to view stones in person. It's super handy since many BM haven't even heard of it.

 

[Christina...]

Heres the article I wanted to show you...http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/NewCutGrading/GIAExAGSIdeal/

I think it explains well, why in the end, your eyes will be the best judge of the diamonds beauty and not all of the technologies available. As far as the stone that you viewed that scored a 5 on the HCA, it may be worth asking for a sarin report to get the accurate measurements to run through the HCA again, and to see how tight the variances are. I'm not a cut expert, so maybe Yssie will check back in and give you her opinion. Typically though, it's said that a higher crown and smaller table will produce more fire, or color flashes of light. I recently purchase a stone that fell outside of GIA EX EX EX specifically because I was looking for this effect.

 

[jyeh74]

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1393959.asp $41.700, a bit more than you wanted to spend but it may be a nice choice.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1480371.asp $32,350 HCA 1.3

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1466824.asp $35,600 HCA 1.4

These would still need to be evaluated to see if they are eye clean to your standards, and you would need to request IS images. JA will do three for free for you and place the stones on hold while you wait for the additional information and the gemologists opinion.

Thanks for the search. Yes, I am looking for no flourescence. I've seen these at JA also. There aren't that many stones actually, that score well on the HCA in this criteria that has inclusions outside of the center area. Do you feel that its worth the extra $ to get the bragging rights of a 2.5ct?

Other experts, please chime in.

 

[Christina...]

I'm just going to bump your thread so that others can chime in, but no, I don't think it's worth the extra money. It will only be a very minimal visual impact and a huge one on your wallet. If I had a 2.41, I'd be calling a 2.5 anyway...close enough for me. But it's really whats more important to you/her.

I think that your next step should be to contact some of the these vendors, GOG BGD WF and tell them specifically what you're looking for and let them source a stone for you to consider. 2.5's aren't flying off the shelves, so most vendors aren't adding to their inventory on a regular basis, and you've seen all that's available to you online from reputable vendors. They can however, locate one with your particular criteria. The three I mentioned I think would be the most able to help you.