Small Argyles

[ame]

Where can I buy a small argyle diamond? The ones on that Liebish site are ok, but REALLY expensive, and the GIA certs don't mention Argyle. Is that common?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Ame,
My experience is that a diamond which can be shown to be "argyle" will cost as much a 3-4 times as much as an identical diamond who's origin is not assured.
I can't speak for any other vendor, or their policies obviously- but if a cutter is trying to sell me Argyle stones ( at argyle prices) that are not laser engraved ( which will appear on the GIA report) I am hugely skeptical.

The incredible price hikes of Argyle stones over the past 5 years certainly makes the massive price seem like a good investment.......but others may want to buy "regular" pink diamonds

 

[ame]

Hi Ame,
My experience is that a diamond which can be shown to be "argyle" will cost as much a 3-4 times as much as an identical diamond who's origin is not assured.
I can't speak for any other vendor, or their policies obviously- but if a cutter is trying to sell me Argyle stones ( at argyle prices) that are not laser engraved ( which will appear on the GIA report) I am hugely skeptical.

The incredible price hikes of Argyle stones over the past 5 years certainly makes the massive price seem like a good investment.......but others may want to buy "regular" pink diamonds

Yea I definitely would want it somehow identified. But I know i'll probably only be able to afford a 5 pointer!!! Which is fine, I just want a tiny one that is legit Argyle.

 

[Rockdiamond]

hmmmm...interesting quandary Ame....you might be stuck having to take a vendor's word.
I don't believe many people are sending .05ct diamonds to GIA.

 

[Mike R]

The better small pink piamonds are collected and offered to those that buy stones regularly from the Argyle tender, if you do not buy larger diamonds in the tender your are not offered the privilege of buying the goods.
The small parcels of pinks come with an argyle lot # but it isn't inscribed on the diamonds and they weren't part of the tender process.
The parcels are then often split up and sold by dealers, so it would be possible to find a single melee that comes with an Argyle lot# but like David said, you would have to trust the seller because it is not going to be indervidually certified or inscribed.

This is what I have found to be the case with 5p and better melee.

Oh, I would also like to add, the small pure pink diamonds even in melee size do pack an amazing punch!

 

[acebruin]

ditto... find a vendor you trust, and try to have them get one for you...

i've never seen a certified argyle stone that small neither... unless it's vivid pink / red... in which case, the price is expensive anyway...

 

[Rockdiamond]

I just did a bit more in-depth research
Argyle does offer rough diamonds outside the tender- to a very select group of dealer/cutters.
The only situation arising out of this type of stone which is verifiable, is if that particular person polishes the rough, and then markets it.
Even then, it's only taking the word of that given seller.
More often in these cases I believe the stones are sold in the rough- possibly touching 4-5 hands before they are polished.
At that point it's pretty much impossible to verify.
But dealers will advise that a stone "looks argyle".
Of course many dealers promote misgraded stones, among many other questionable practices- as mentioned the key here is selecting a dealer with integrity.

We deal with folks who won't guarantee anything they have not seen with their own eyes- or that can be verified.
Another difficult aspect of Ame's original quest is the size.
Larger stones are bound to be purchased, and tracked individually from the rough to a polished - possibly making the trail back to the mine more straightforward as compared with melee which is sold in lots.


Mike- this is a little different than what you wrote- but I'm not 1000% percent certain.
I was told by a very large supplier of ours who participates in the tender that the small Argyle stones are sold at "sites", as opposed to the tender.....

Interesting stuff!
Thanks for starting the discussion Ame!

 

[Mike R]

I just did a bit more in-depth research
Argyle does offer rough diamonds outside the tender- to a very select group of dealer/cutters.
The only situation arising out of this type of stone which is verifiable, is if that particular person polishes the rough, and then markets it.
Even then, it's only taking the word of that given seller.
More often in these cases I believe the stones are sold in the rough- possibly touching 4-5 hands before they are polished.
At that point it's pretty much impossible to verify.
But dealers will advise that a stone "looks argyle".
Of course many dealers promote misgraded stones, among many other questionable practices- as mentioned the key here is selecting a dealer with integrity.

We deal with folks who won't guarantee anything they have not seen with their own eyes- or that can be verified.
Another difficult aspect of Ame's original quest is the size.
Larger stones are bound to be purchased, and tracked individually from the rough to a polished - possibly making the trail back to the mine more straightforward as compared with melee which is sold in lots.


Mike- this is a little different than what you wrote- but I'm not 1000% percent certain.
I was told by a very large supplier of ours who participates in the tender that the small Argyle stones are sold at "sites", as opposed to the tender.....

Interesting stuff!
Thanks for starting the discussion Ame!

I am certain of my facts, I checked them just very recently with my dealer in Australia that buys them direct (I could be wrong but I think they call themselves an Argyle partner or affiliate), they are bought as polished melee from Argyle and the parcel comes with a lot number, they are not part of the tender but are sold during or around the time of the tender, again this is only for their best melee.

 

[Mike R]

I just did a bit more in-depth research
Argyle does offer rough diamonds outside the tender- to a very select group of dealer/cutters.
The only situation arising out of this type of stone which is verifiable, is if that particular person polishes the rough, and then markets it.
Even then, it's only taking the word of that given seller.
More often in these cases I believe the stones are sold in the rough- possibly touching 4-5 hands before they are polished.
At that point it's pretty much impossible to verify.
But dealers will advise that a stone "looks argyle".
Of course many dealers promote misgraded stones, among many other questionable practices- as mentioned the key here is selecting a dealer with integrity.

We deal with folks who won't guarantee anything they have not seen with their own eyes- or that can be verified.
Another difficult aspect of Ame's original quest is the size.
Larger stones are bound to be purchased, and tracked individually from the rough to a polished - possibly making the trail back to the mine more straightforward as compared with melee which is sold in lots.


Mike- this is a little different than what you wrote- but I'm not 1000% percent certain.
I was told by a very large supplier of ours who participates in the tender that the small Argyle stones are sold at "sites", as opposed to the tender.....

Interesting stuff!
Thanks for starting the discussion Ame!

I am certain of my facts, I checked them just very recently with my dealer in Australia that buys them direct (I could be wrong but I think they call themselves an Argyle partner or affiliate), they are bought as polished melee from Argyle and the parcel comes with a lot number, they are not part of the tender but are sold during or around the time of the tender, again this is only for their best melee.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks Mike!!

That does leave another possibility.
Argyle includes parcels in the tender ( and now that you mention that it sounds like something I read in the tender listing)- but they may also sell parcels of small rough non tender, in their sites.
My guy is not the "head honcho- who's not in today- but if you could verify this Mike, I'd appreciate it!

 

[ame]

Obviously I'd like larger than a true melee size, but obviously price is a problem for that. I want someting that's less than 1K and Im not SUPER particular on the intensity, so much as I just want to OWN something from that mine and have it set somehow, perhaps bezeled or something. I may never make it to Australia to buy in person before the mine is truly tapped out and supply is lost but I want to own one.

 

[Mike R]

Thanks Mike!!

That does leave another possibility.
Argyle includes parcels in the tender ( and now that you mention that it sounds like something I read in the tender listing)- but they may also sell parcels of small rough non tender, in their sites.
My guy is not the "head honcho- who's not in today- but if you could verify this Mike, I'd appreciate it!

Hi David,
I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you want me to verify, everything I have said has been discussed with the director of the company we deal with very recently when the topic came up here about the pinks I used in Zahra's ring, I beleave the director is as close to Argle (relationship wise) as you can get.
I'm sure Argyle also sell rough in parcels but I beleave that even in small sizes they keep the best for themselves and sell it as polished goods.

Good luck with your search Ame, you will be amazed how pretty and pink a small Argyl can be when you get it, they really are very special.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Sorry Mike- I did not see the part of your answer about non tender melee parcels ( and it's even there twice.
I have seen amazing natural pink melee ( as nice as the argyle stuff I've seen) that was not identified as coming Argyle- of course for Ame- or others what want verifiable Argyle stones, that's not the answer.
Ame- at $1000 for a .05ct stone, it's $20k per carat.
Based on the prices I've seen, it will have to be slightly lighter, or maybe with a brown modifier- and then it would be a lot less.
But nice Intense Pink Natural .05ct stones are generally going for more today- no matter where they were mined

ETA- Mike- I just searched and found the thread you referred to- WOW- what an incredible ring- phenomenal work!!!
The pinks look amazing.

 

[ame]

Id be curious WHAT a 1000 budget would get me with a real Argyle. But that's the max I could spend. Id love to pay less even if its a tiny stone. "rose pink" was a nice shade I thought. Maybe in the 5-6P mark. But having it really legitimately be Argyle and somehow marked would be important. Shape and all that would be less important, as I wouldn't care if it was round, step, radiant probably.

 

[yssie]

Sorry Mike- I did not see the part of your answer about non tender melee parcels ( and it's even there twice.
I have seen amazing natural pink melee ( as nice as the argyle stuff I've seen) that was not identified as coming Argyle- of course for Ame- or others what want verifiable Argyle stones, that's not the answer.
Ame- at $1000 for a .05ct stone, it's $20k per carat.
Based on the prices I've seen, it will have to be slightly lighter, or maybe with a brown modifier- and then it would be a lot less.
But nice Intense Pink Natural .05ct stones are generally going for more today- no matter where they were mined

Good God.
Is that a realistic quote?

 

[Mike R]

Id be curious WHAT a 1000 budget would get me with a real Argyle. But that's the max I could spend. Id love to pay less even if its a tiny stone. "rose pink" was a nice shade I thought. Maybe in the 5-6P mark. But having it really legitimately be Argyle and somehow marked would be important. Shape and all that would be less important, as I wouldn't care if it was round, step, radiant probably.

I'm sure you will find something nice, you seem very reasonable with your expectations, you should be able to be given a copy of the Argyle lot number in paperwork from your vendor. .

For the record Zahra's pinks were 5P and they all came from the same lot #, personally I wouldn't won't to go any more intense than 5P, they were pure and vivid looking without being dark.

Thanks David.

 

[ame]

Id be curious WHAT a 1000 budget would get me with a real Argyle. But that's the max I could spend. Id love to pay less even if its a tiny stone. "rose pink" was a nice shade I thought. Maybe in the 5-6P mark. But having it really legitimately be Argyle and somehow marked would be important. Shape and all that would be less important, as I wouldn't care if it was round, step, radiant probably.

I'm sure you will find something nice, you seem very reasonable with your expectations, you should be able to be given a copy of the Argyle lot number in paperwork from your vendor. .

For the record Zahra's pinks were 5P and they all came from the same lot #, personally I wouldn't won't to go any more intense than 5P, they were pure and vivid looking without being dark.

Thanks David.

EXCELLENT to hear. I don't want to have them really dark. I want them to be pink but not ridiculous looking. Ill have to see what I can find that would work in my budget, even if its a little parcel of a few melee or something. I don't need a lot. Look at me using NEED. I just want something to have in my collection!

Now I just have to find a seller I trust that can actually obtain them with paperwork.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Sorry Mike- I did not see the part of your answer about non tender melee parcels ( and it's even there twice.
I have seen amazing natural pink melee ( as nice as the argyle stuff I've seen) that was not identified as coming Argyle- of course for Ame- or others what want verifiable Argyle stones, that's not the answer.
Ame- at $1000 for a .05ct stone, it's $20k per carat.
Based on the prices I've seen, it will have to be slightly lighter, or maybe with a brown modifier- and then it would be a lot less.
But nice Intense Pink Natural .05ct stones are generally going for more today- no matter where they were mined

Good God.
Is that a realistic quote?

Hi Yssie

I believe it is realistic on today's market. There are always anomalies- and hopefully Ame can find one....but many times the low price is a giveaway....
Funny story- a guy showed me some incredible looking melee. Assorted colors, with some pink in there.
But this was not from one of our normal channels- and the price was very low.
"How do you know they're natural?" I asked.
"They're from my cousin!" he replied.
OH- your cousin ( who I also never heard of) now it all makes sense!


The point is- short of a stone with GIA report - or argyle certificate- OR- if a trusted vendor can provide ample enough assurance, you're faced with a very tough challenge Ame.
And in the second case- a vendors assurance without paperwork, you'd loose that value as well should you ever want to sell it.

My earnest advice to someone looking for a $1000 Argyle diamond is that it makes far more sense to wait till you can buy a stone with the proper paperwork- and large enough to actually see without a loupe
it's pretty easy to loose a .05ct diamond......

 

[kenny]

As you know I collect FCDs.
Over the years I have paid very close attention to attempt to decipher the pecking order of Argyle pinks.

The cream of the crop are the Argyle Tender stones.
Once a year Argyle has a private auction to sell the 50 or so finest pinks, reds, blues and violets the mine produced that year.
Years ago they were mostly Intense and Vivids and larger stones with better clarity.
Since the mine is in its declining years smaller, more included, and less-strongly colored stones now make it into the Tender.

Buyer Beware!
Tender stones come with documentation from Argyle certifying they were Tender stones, yet I have seen slimball vendors claiming a pink was from the Argyle tender when it was just a lower-ranking Argyle stone.
Recently here on PS I heard about a vendor telling the customer their ring will be made with Argyle Tender melee.
HAHAHAHAHA.
To my knowledge, the smallest Pink that ever made it into the Tender auction was 0.30 ct.
Those are some HONKING melee. (Plus you'd never find even two matching ones.)

Next step down the pecking order is pinks that got BOTH an Argyle serial # laser inscribed onto the girdle by Argyle, AND a grading report from Argyle itself. (They usually also come with a GIA report which may differ in clarity by one grade.)

The next step down is the pinks that only got the Argyle # inscribed onto the girdle by Argyle but did NOT get an Argyle report. (I have one of these, a 0.27 ct Fancy Deep Purplish Pink VVS1 Emerald cut.)

Last are pinks that are from Argyle but have no proof from Argyle that they are from Argyle.
This is vendor-trusting time (Personally, after 20 transactions, I would only trust Leibish, www.fancydiamonds.net ). . . and good luck if you ever try to sell it as an true Argyle stone in the future.

I've been told the most experienced experts can tell by the color and graining whether a pink is from Argyle or not.
FCD guru Stephen Hofer may be a good resource on this: http://www.stephenhofer.com/

Over the years I have seen VERY fine pinks that would seem to warrant a laser inscription and a Argyle report but only have one or the other, or neither.
I've also seen blah mediocre pinks that got both the inscription and the Argyle report.
I can't figure it out, or Argyle is just not consistent about which pinks are worthy of the report and the laser inscription.

Also keep in mind a pink diamond does not have to be from Argyle to be beautiful or valuable.
Check out Queen Elizabeth's pink round in this brooch.
It was mined many years before the Argyle mine was even discovered.

 

[yssie]

Sorry Mike- I did not see the part of your answer about non tender melee parcels ( and it's even there twice.
I have seen amazing natural pink melee ( as nice as the argyle stuff I've seen) that was not identified as coming Argyle- of course for Ame- or others what want verifiable Argyle stones, that's not the answer.
Ame- at $1000 for a .05ct stone, it's $20k per carat.
Based on the prices I've seen, it will have to be slightly lighter, or maybe with a brown modifier- and then it would be a lot less.
But nice Intense Pink Natural .05ct stones are generally going for more today- no matter where they were mined

Good God.
Is that a realistic quote?

Hi Yssie

I believe it is realistic on today's market. There are always anomalies- and hopefully Ame can find one....but many times the low price is a giveaway....
Funny story- a guy showed me some incredible looking melee. Assorted colors, with some pink in there.
But this was not from one of our normal channels- and the price was very low.
"How do you know they're natural?" I asked.
"They're from my cousin!" he replied.
OH- your cousin ( who I also never heard of) now it all makes sense!


The point is- short of a stone with GIA report - or argyle certificate- OR- if a trusted vendor can provide ample enough assurance, you're faced with a very tough challenge Ame.
And in the second case- a vendors assurance without paperwork, you'd loose that value as well should you ever want to sell it.

My earnest advice to someone looking for a $1000 Argyle diamond is that it makes far more sense to wait till you can buy a stone with the proper paperwork- and large enough to actually see without a loupe
it's pretty easy to loose a .05ct diamond......

Ame's pretty good with a loupe, no worries there

 

[diamondseeker2006]

 

[ame]

HELL. YES. I. AM. I am quite sure someday my eyes will go on strike.

This isn't something Im super worried about clarity on, I want one for the collection and may never set it, I have no idea. I just don't want a big spend knowing it's small, bec I want one from that mine The color is more important than the clarity etc. I just want a real deal. Preferably one with a cert and a serial.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Ame's pretty good with a loupe, no worries there

We'll have to send her a ticket next time we drop one....you have no idea how many hours we spend on our knees looking for diamonds we've dropped!

 

[justginger]

Ditto everything Kenny said - especially about inequalities in Argyle stone treatment. There seems to be NO consistancy in what bears Argyle cert/inscription and what is passed over.

I have a 13 pt FIP baguette from Leibish that is not certed or inscribed. Leibish himself stated that it is Argyle. The coloring is spot on for a "typical" Aussie stone. I absolutely 100% believe it is Argyle, but will never be able to prove it. It is a moot point for me though, I am very attached to it and will never be selling it on. It was my first FCD.

Ame, honestly, what you're wanting is impossible. You can either save and get a documented Argyle, or contact Leibish and speak to them about an undocumented stone they believe to be Argyle. You're still cutting it close with that budget and size though - my stone was around 2500 for 13 pts, and that was over a year ago. Prices are always upwardly mobile.

 

[ame]

Ame's pretty good with a loupe, no worries there

We'll have to send her a ticket next time we drop one....you have no idea how many hours we spend on our knees looking for diamonds we've dropped!

lol Im the master at it. I am also death to Quality Control. lol if you ever need some hard core anal-retentiveness, gimme a ring

Yea I know I am asking for the impossible. I always thought I'd bring serious cash or a serious limit on my amex and buy one IN australia that was certed.

 

[kenny]

Ditto everything Kenny said - especially about inequalities in Argyle stone treatment. There seems to be NO consistancy in what bears Argyle cert/inscription and what is passed over.

Remember during Nixon's Watergate scandal what Deep Throat, the anonymous White House informant, told the Washington Post reporter . . . "Follow the money"

Perhaps certain buyers offer to pay Argyle extra (over the table or under) for laser inscriptions and Argyle reports knowing they can recoup the money and MUCH MORE when selling the stone.

Don't sue me; I said, "Perhaps".
Money often corrupts.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I think it has more to do with the fact that other than Canadian Diamonds- I can't think of another type of diamond being sold today that is known for the location where it was mined. Much less the individual mine.
What that leads to is the certain situations related to that- and as Kenny said, money.
Remember the variation from one correctly graded Fancy Intense Pink diamond to the next is remarkably wide- no matter the mine.
Some are amazing, some look like drek- no matter the mine.
But the given- Argyle is more desirable- the mine is almost drained- makes some ugly Argyle stones more costly that other non argyle stones of the same color grade.

And, as Kenny implied- with such a financial incentive buyers need to be extremely cautious about a pedigree.


Ame- the job is yours! .05ct diamond picker upper with a loupe .

 

[kenny]

Here's a 2-point.
Sorry, it's sold.

There was no GIA report, Argyle report, or Argyle inscription but the vendor says it's an Argyle Fancy Vivid Pink stone.
Personally, I believe what this vendors says.

Contact Leibish and ask if it was under $1000. (Rather, if today's retail would be under $1000()

You MAY find what you are looking for, but for $1,000 you will not get Argyle origin documentation from Argyle.
In that case vendor trust becomes paramount.





http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/2583.htm

 

[kenny]

Here are five small GIA-graded fully natural pinks with no Argyle report or girdle inscriptions, but are of Argyle origin per the vendor.
You might ask about these.
Tell Leibish you are looking for something like these and ask what size/color $1000 will get you today.
Note some Brownish pink or Brown Pinks are beautiful hues I'd be proud to own, and you'll get much more weight for your money.

Leibish is reputable.
That's important to me.
IMHO what they sell is worth what they charge.
I don't know that about other vendors.

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/3423.htm

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/1950.htm

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/3914.htm

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/2593.htm

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/2650.htm