Should foreign tourists get a "pass"?

[rockzilla]

I was in San Francisco this past weekend, and one of my favorite things to do is just go on long walks around the city. My walk on Sunday took my through Chinatown. This time of year the city is full of tourists from all over, and its fun to hear all the different languages being spoken on the streets.

However, as I was walking through Chinatown, I was behind a group of 4-6 european tourists. A woman working at a Chinese restaurant was standing out front with a menu to show people, and he picked it up as if he was going to take a look at it. Instead, he started
"talking" to her in a mocking way, using words that were clearly intended to mimic an asian language but were obviously made up. He and his friends proceeded to laugh as if this was the most hilarious thing in the world.

I could not believe what a jerk this guy was being, especially in a country he is a guest in. Part of me wanted to walk up to him and say, "Hey buddy, this isn't going to fly." Probably due to a combination of my shyness and indecisiveness, I just walked around him and gave the woman a "I'm so sorry, that guy is a jerk" type of look.

I then spent some time thinking about it the rest of my walk. Previously, I had a discussion with my friend who is a waitress, and I said I thought that its not her job to "educate" foreign tourists about our tipping procedures if they don't tip well -- that is the job of a good guide book, or ideally an American friend or acquiantence. This situation bothered me even more though, as he was openly mocking this woman because of her ethnicity, not just because of some oversight. I wondered what European country he was from, and if where he grew up he ever had any exposure to the diversity of backgrounds we encounter every day as Americans. I thought about how my friends from other places make jokes about the "ugly American tourist" wearing white tennis shoes or talking too loudly, and how much uglier this guy was than any of that.

I know a lot of people think that we're too P.C., but I'd rather be a little silly than live somewhere its considered OK to mock someone right in front of their face. I really wish I had said something...if only I knew the right thing to say.

 

[TravelingGal]

Having seen a lot of idiot American tourists abroad, I'd say there are yucky tourists of all types and I don't think it's OK regardless of where you're from and where you are visiting.

Rockzilla, this has nothing to do with the European country he's from, or what kind of diversity he's experienced. IMHO, it's because he was a jerk, pure and simple.

And btw, I believe you in live in LA, correct? Because I assure you, there are MANY MANY Americans who do not experience "the diversity of backgrounds that we encounter every day as Americans." Not even close.

 

[damons]

No.

I live in Philadelphia, and I am very close to the historical section with the Liberty Bell and all that jazz. I get stopped by tourists all the time that are asking for directions, or a good place to eat. In my experience, they are very friendly. They annoy me sometimes because they like to stop in the middle of the street and take a picture, but at least they are nice. I think that guy was just a jerk.

 

[artdecogirl]

Rockzilla, I am sooooo sorry you had that experience! That just stinks! I have to agree with Tgal, I think there are people like that all over wether they were exposed to diversity or not and that guy was just a jerk. It is hard to understand people sometimes, you are out there enjoying the very thing he is there mocking ??? Very sad.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Having seen a lot of idiot American tourists abroad, I'd say there are yucky tourists of all types and I don't think it's OK regardless of where you're from and where you are visiting.

Rockzilla, this has nothing to do with the European country he's from, or what kind of diversity he's experienced. IMHO, it's because he was a jerk, pure and simple.

And btw, I believe you in live in LA, correct? Because I assure you, there are MANY MANY Americans who do not experience "the diversity of backgrounds that we encounter every day as Americans." Not even close.

What TGal said. He was totally being an ass, and that's not cool, no matter who you are, where you're from, or where you are.

I've definitely encountered the...um...more ignorant Western tourists (the ones who ask really awkward questions or make ignorant statements to locals - i.e. "But you don't LOOK Costa Rican - you're too tall and white" (yeah that one is for real)) and to a certain extent, I do cut people who are ignorant a bit of slack since I have to give them credit for just being out of their country in the first place. But willful ignorance, a total non-desire to learn anything about the culture they're visiting or living in, or jerkishness - I don't think being foreign really excuses those.

 

[Cehrabehra]

People are rotten the world over... Just this past weekend in Beijing I heard from locals how awful "iraqis" (all middle easterners are iraqi) are and of course the horrible "japs".

I don't think this sort of behavior is limited to americans OR europeans. I think every race is guilty of it, both in home countries and abroad. I don't like the way some of the americans living here in china treat the chinese, but not all of the chinese love americans either.

 

[rockzilla]

Having seen a lot of idiot American tourists abroad, I'd say there are yucky tourists of all types and I don't think it's OK regardless of where you're from and where you are visiting.

Rockzilla, this has nothing to do with the European country he's from, or what kind of diversity he's experienced. IMHO, it's because he was a jerk, pure and simple.

And btw, I believe you in live in LA, correct? Because I assure you, there are MANY MANY Americans who do not experience "the diversity of backgrounds that we encounter every day as Americans." Not even close.

I am currently living in San Diego, but in the last 5 years I have lived in LA, Boston, and SF as well. I guess those are all pretty diverse places relatively speaking. I also attend a highly international graduate school (30%+), and while I know the vast majority, if not all, of my classmates from around the globe would be just as put off by that guys behavior, there is a sentiment among those coming from outside the U.S. that it is "too P.C." in terms of prohibiting jokes against people due to their gender, race, ethnicity, etc. My former employer was a large, multi-national company and when we had global trainings, the non-americans would often scoff at how they had to be held to an "American" standard in terms of sexual harassment & diversity training.

While this one guy may have been a jerk, I believe there IS a difference between countries (or parts of countries) that are homogenous in background and those that have people from all over. (I'm now recalling some of the olympic teams taking photos of themselves with "slanted eyes" during the Beijing olympics...ugh) There are different standards for what is "okay" depending on where you are coming from around the globe, and I think some nations are 10, 20 or 50 years behind the U.S. in this regard (different regions of the U.S. are at different stages as well). However, if you choose to insult people on the streets of a country that is not your own, where you are a guest, I have a problem with that. I am usually the first one offering directions or to take photos for people, as I think people from all over should feel welcome here, but I'd have no problem putting that particular guy in the first cab to the airport.

 

[ForteKitty]

People are rotten the world over... Just this past weekend in Beijing I heard from locals how awful "iraqis" (all middle easterners are iraqi) are and of course the horrible "japs".

I don't think this sort of behavior is limited to americans OR europeans. I think every race is guilty of it, both in home countries and abroad. I don't like the way some of the americans living here in china treat the chinese, but not all of the chinese love americans either.

Cehrabehra- I have to comment on the "jap" comment. The Japanese military did an evil thing in China and Korea... much of it covered up and never taught in Japanese history. Most of the Western world is unaware of how awful it was. My grandparents lost parents, siblings, and many, many friends. To them, the people who invaded, tortured, and murdered their family and friends will always be "japs". HOWEVER, it is mostly in reference to that specific group/time period. Just like there is a HUGE distinction between nazis and Germans, obviously.

Do you remember which words they used, exactly? I'm just curious because slang can mean different things in different parts.

 

[Tuckins1]

Ya know, there are stupid people in every country. Just because you are in a foreign country doesn't mean you have the right to be an ass. Some things I am sure they could get a pass on- even the topping thing I can see if they come from a place that they do not do that. But I don't think being flat out rude to someone's face is acceptable anywhere.

 

[ForteKitty]

Rockzilla- I'm sorry you had to witness something like that. How I wish someone would have tossed out a bucket of dirty water from the second story windown at that exact moment...

My friend's family visited Spain, and was greeted by locals mocking them w/ "ping pong ching chong" sounds everywhere they went. They have cruised to many countries, and this has never happened before. I wonder if the tourists were Spanish, since their teams have publicly done stuff like this in the past, ie: slanty eye basketball pics (yes gasol, i see you), monkey sounds when they were playing against black players, and there was one other thing i cant seem to remember right now.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Rockzilla- I'm sorry you had to witness something like that. How I wish someone would have tossed out a bucket of dirty water from the second story windown at that exact moment...

My friend's family visited Spain, and was greeted by locals mocking them w/ "ping pong ching chong" sounds everywhere they went. They have cruised to many countries, and this has never happened before. I wonder if the tourists were Spanish, since their teams have publicly done stuff like this in the past, ie: slanty eye basketball pics (yes gasol, i see you), monkey sounds when they were playing against black players, and there was one other thing i cant seem to remember right now.

Interesting. I totally didn't get any of that when I studied abroad in Madrid a few years ago (I'm Asian), but as someone already said, there are jerks and close-minded people in every country.

 

[ForteKitty]

Yea, it happens everywhere, even here in LA. Yelling "shut the ____ up you M____ F____ _______" usually takes care of it.

 

[Blackpaw]

Unfortunately i think the *majority* of people out of every culture are bigoted. Im Australian, and i dont know anyone that would behave that way because i dont interact with people like that. But i do 'know of' a lot of people that would behave that way. In fact, they're the majority of Australians. And i believe the same goes for any nationality.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Cehrabehra- I have to comment on the "jap" comment. The Japanese military did an evil thing in China and Korea... much of it covered up and never taught in Japanese history. Most of the Western world is unaware of how awful it was. My grandparents lost parents, siblings, and many, many friends. To them, the people who invaded, tortured, and murdered their family and friends will always be "japs". HOWEVER, it is mostly in reference to that specific group/time period. Just like there is a HUGE distinction between nazis and Germans, obviously.

so true. the stories that i heard from the elderly chinese people whom was in China during that period in history.

 

[Cehrabehra]

People are rotten the world over... Just this past weekend in Beijing I heard from locals how awful "iraqis" (all middle easterners are iraqi) are and of course the horrible "japs".

I don't think this sort of behavior is limited to americans OR europeans. I think every race is guilty of it, both in home countries and abroad. I don't like the way some of the americans living here in china treat the chinese, but not all of the chinese love americans either.

Cehrabehra- I have to comment on the "jap" comment. The Japanese military did an evil thing in China and Korea... much of it covered up and never taught in Japanese history. Most of the Western world is unaware of how awful it was. My grandparents lost parents, siblings, and many, many friends. To them, the people who invaded, tortured, and murdered their family and friends will always be "japs". HOWEVER, it is mostly in reference to that specific group/time period. Just like there is a HUGE distinction between nazis and Germans, obviously.

Do you remember which words they used, exactly? I'm just curious because slang can mean different things in different parts.

I live in Dongbei and there is a lot of resentment here still, and a lot of people who have japanese features (mixed ethnicity) but it is taboo to discuss it - the assumption is that your ancestors are evil japanese but you are chinese and that's okay.

I have heard many comments here about the japanese and yet recall none specifically - the one I mentioned above was this past weekend in Beijing and IIRC he said, "I hate the japs". It was our tourguide.

At another place I saw a chinese woman tell a man not to take photos and she had a mad look on her face, this same woman had just told me that *I* could take photos, I asked her why he couldn't and she said he's just iraqi and he wants to cause trouble and will never buy anything here. I met a Palestinian woman later and she was saying how much she hated the israelies but she did say she didn't hate the jews - just the governement of Israel. Others just assumed she was iraqi.

It was a racist weekend for me I guess. Blech. Talking to the Palestinian woman was super interesting though.

 

[Cehrabehra]

One more thing on the "japs" thing but that isn't really about it - people the world over throughout history have been supreme a-holes. No more than the white people IMO. The Chinese, the Japanese both have done horrible things over the centuries, but the whites have done the most I think. And yet the racism against whites is much more subdued. The japanese did a horrible thing to us in pearl harbor and we did horrible things to them with the internment camps and the bombs we dropped, and yet the animosity has all but cleared between us. I think, based on what I've heard here, that the resentment lingers because there has never been an apology or even an acknowledgment from the japanese for what they did here. Proof again that an apology goes a long way toward forgiveness.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

One more thing on the "japs" thing but that isn't really about it - people the world over throughout history have been supreme a-holes. No more than the white people IMO. The Chinese, the Japanese both have done horrible things over the centuries, but the whites have done the most I think. And yet the racism against whites is much more subdued. The japanese did a horrible thing to us in pearl harbor and we did horrible things to them with the internment camps and the bombs we dropped, and yet the animosity has all but cleared between us. I think, based on what I've heard here, that the resentment lingers because there has never been an apology or even an acknowledgment from the japanese for what they did here. Proof again that an apology goes a long way toward forgiveness.

I feel like there are still a lot of unresolved issues today, at least on the Korea-Japan front (my family is Korean). Koreans don't like that the Japanese seem to be minimizing their roles in school textbooks, and there's a dispute over an island that apparently has always historically been claimed by Korea, but Japan is also claiming it, and tensions are just flaring up. Plus, there's also the issue that Korea didn't beat Japan in WWII - the US did. Korea's always kind of been in an iffy position lying between China and Japan. China is becoming/is a huge economic power. Japan as well. Korea's done very well since the Korean War ended, but it's never a great position to be being between two strong neighbors, both of whom have invaded your country. I think people of my grandparents' generation would have a hard time forgetting all of that.

And then, I think there's a socio-cultural issue too. The Koreans who were taken to Japan during the war, Koreans who married Japanese people, or had their names changed - I mean, Korea is very homogenous. I can see how all of that might be seen as a big invasion of their homogeneity and racial "purity". And I think maybe that's another reason why Korea (at least the Korea of my grandparents' and parents' generations) are slow to forgive. It's not just that they were invaded or defeated, but the Korean flag, national anthem, etc. were all banned for a time. Lots of intrusion. And I think this element of intrusion takes on more significance in a homogenous country, versus a country like the US. We're a melting pot, and if people of a certain ethnicity come and marry into the current populations, ok, fine. That's the beauty of our country. But in countries like Korea? Nope, not nearly as cool a thing to do I think. I hear that you can still get weird looks on the street if you're Korean and walking along with your white husband/wife.

Anyway, that ended up being longer than I thought - sorry! It's just a topic I'm really interested in. I grew up all over and on military bases, so race has never been an issue for me. People are people are people. And I worked in Japan a couple years ago, which was fascinating. I mean, the people I worked with are the nicest people ever. When I socialized with them, I certainly was not thinking of past atrocities. But then again, I was accosted in the subway by an angry Japanese man who flipped his sh!t when I started speaking Korean, and that really shook me. So this question, like I said, is definitely something I like to think and talk about.

 

[ForteKitty]

I think, based on what I've heard here, that the resentment lingers because there has never been an apology or even an acknowledgment from the japanese for what they did here. Proof again that an apology goes a long way toward forgiveness.

You're absolutely right. Had they apologized and acknowledge what happened, things might be different. Then again, seeing pictures of dead pregnant women w/ their fetuses cut out of their bellies is kind of hard to forget. If you have a chance, read "rape of nanking" by Iris Chang. She was so emotionally affected that she committed suicide after writing the book. it's not for the faint of heart.

I remember a few years ago, the Japnese Prime Mister (or some high official) was still denying that Nanking massacre ever occured. he claimed that the pictures of the heaps of bodies taken by American and British missionaries were doctored. I thought it was bull---- till i met some Japanese foreign exchange students, and they started apologizing to me after they found out i'm ethnically Chinese. Apparently they didn't learn about what their military did during the war until after they came to the US!

My grandparents narrowly escaped the Japanese, then the communist. Grandpa jumped into the ocean as the last ship heading out to Taiwan sailed, and was rescued by a passenger. Hard to imagine starting a new life in a new country w/ nothing but the wet clothes on your back. I think they may hate the commies more because while the Japanese killed people, the communist destroyed the culture/country. Priceless artifacts and ancient books all destroyed, lives ruined. Grandma left behind tons of precious gems. she still talks about the rubies and jade her father used to bring back from his trips. Said her blood red ruby was the size of her thumb nail. God how i would love to see it!!

Sorry to take this thread further off track.

 

[bee*]

I agree with the others in that it wasn't where the guy was from that was the problem, it was the fact that he was an a$$. I don't think tourists should get a free pass when it comes to being rude to others. No one should.

 

[Cehrabehra]

BEG - I can't speak for the rest of China or for Japan, but here in Dongbei the koreans are well accepted. There is a huge community of Koreans here in Dalian. My kids go to an international school here that only accepts people with foreign passports and more than half of the students there are Korean. Also the area of Dalian I live in is called Jinshitan and it is a resort area and most of the houses are owned by koreans as vacation homes. The koreans here are known as being very wealthy. The school is bloody expensive and if my husband's company didn't pay it there's no way we could afford it. The tuition for 3 kids is almost half my husband's salary. Anyway, I am really not at all informed about the issues Korea has with China or Japan but there isn't any hostility open here the way there is against the japanese.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Fortekitty - I have learned some about the taiwan situation but most of it from the local chinese and of course they have a vastly different story that involves how the loser stole all of the artifacts and went to taiwan and then claimed it was a different country. EVERY map here has taiwan as part of china.

While I am here I am actively trying to keep my ears open so that I can soak up the chinese side of things, I have the rest of my life to research the other side. I don't buy the chinese side in full, but it is a graet opportunity to listen. I am not allowed to discuss tibet, taiwan with the locals so it ends up being very one sided. They hate the dalai lama and the guy who lost to general mao and went to taiwan. Makes me wish I'd paid better attention in history class. I really do think "history" is lost on children. I find it makes more sense and actually means something to me now.

I would love to continue this discussion, I'm hopping a plane to the usa via korea in the morning Someday I hope to see more of Korea than the airport!! But it's the best airport in the world in my opinion

If anyone has anything they think I should think about or ask about - please let me know. I cannot tell the locals certain things but I can ASK them anything

 

[movie zombie]

Yea, it happens everywhere, even here in LA. Yelling "shut the ____ up you M____ F____ _______" usually takes care of it.

yes, it does..........but i also know i might be taking a risk of escalation when i do this, usually just uttering the words before the "M" does the trick.

mz

 

[ForteKitty]

Sorry again, this is gonna be long. Please skip if you dont wanna read. I didn't wanna start a new thread yet in case Cehrabehra doesn't see it.

Cehrabehra- The amount of brainwashing during the Cultural Revolution is astounding. I'm not surprised that some people there believe the things they believe.

Three of my grandparents were still in China when Mao took over. They saw how the communist were destroying everything. Citizens were separated into red and black. Anyone who was educated was black-listed, and killed. Children were taught to turn in their own parents if they were suspected to be black. That's how my great-grandparents (dad's side) died. Neighbor's kids reported them. They were taken away for "questioning" by the red army, and their bodies found in a ditch days later. Their parents weren't part of either party, they were teachers. The neighbor's kids simply didn't like that my great-grandparents had a bigger house, and turned them in. I wonder if they ever felt remorseful.

Family is very very important in asian cultures. To do what they did back then, to tell a child that his/her parents are not as important as Mao... that is just scary as hell to me. Parents were terrified their kids would turn them in. How effed up is that?

Anyone who destroys their own culture does not deserve to claim it. Thank god artifacts were taken out, otherwise it would have been long gone. And just so you know, Taiwan only has a teeny tiny bit of it. The rest of the "world powers" at the time has a lot more. Although I feel cheated that I have to go to London to see a lot of the artifacts, I'm thankful it's still preserved.

Whether Taiwan "belongs" to China, that's a whole different story. To be honest, it's just a pride thing. China didn't want that island for decades, tossed it back and forth... and NOW they want it because they can't have it. I just want to shake those politicians. Taiwan had a lot of technology for a long time, and China has tons of people. Had they teamed up together 25 years ago, can you imagine the amount of power they would have combined? So short sighted and prideful. just slap each other and get over it.

I'm not anti-China. I just wish things were different, instead of a big complicated stupid mess.

Start a new thread in Around the world when you have time and i'd love to talk more!