Should equality extend to women going shirtless, or is that indecent? Legal battle brewing

[Tekate]

Yes I think they should - at the beach ... of course at almost 65 I would NOT DARE to do it unless I wanted to scare young women and young boys

 

[OoohShiny]

This might be a controversial comment... but as a fairly open-minded Brit (not even one of those laissez-faire continental types strolling about on the beach with everything hanging out or happily chatting in a sauna with all the goods on show!) a lot of Americans do seem to be very uptight about naked bodies!

Without any basis other than my gut feeling and things wot I saw on the telly I wonder if a lot is to do with religion-proscribed attitudes to baring flesh, especially in seemingly the large swathe of Bible-belt middle America but also across the wider regions where (rightly or wrongly) religion seems to have formed the basis for government legislation in many cases. (I repeat that I have no evidence for this claim so please correct me as required!)


I still don't understand why being naked (or topless) is so 'wrong' - we are born naked, we are all naked under our clothes, there is nothing innately 'dirty' about not wearing clothes other than what 'social norms' (which are often initiated/dictated by the few to control the many) tell us, which is seemingly that naked people must surely be naked for sexual and/or 'perverted' reasons, rather than because they are using their breasts for what they were designed for (feeding children) or just being naked because it's refreshing to not have to wear anything for a change.

What about naturist camps? What about naturist beaches? What about World Naked Bike Ride? What about sharing a shower or bath with your child? What about bathing a very sick relative in bed? What about communal shower facilities? What about a doctor's examination? All of these involve non-sexual nakedness and only a very small number would (wrongly) perceive them to be sexual. Why should being topless in public be any different?

People apply their own interpretations and reasoning on others rather than let others live their own lives by their own rules. As long as it is not weirdly or grossly inappropriate, people should be able to do what they want. The naked body is an amusing thing when you think about it (it's not like us humans are very pretty, with all our wobbly bits hanging out and we are basically just mostly-hairless monkeys ) but it also tells the story of one's life - accident scars, childbirth scars, surgery scars, tattoos commemorating events... We should celebrate it for what it is, an amazing piece of organic machinery that we are still trying to understand, that carries us through this life and all its experiences, rather than treat it as something to be ashamed of and that should be hidden away lest we offend someone or someone applies their own interpretations and reasoning to it and wrongly assumes 'showing it off' is sexual.

FWIW I've been to sweaty rave/dance events/festivals where girls have been dancing in just their bottom-half attire and shoes, as have the men present, and it is no issue because everyone is there to dance. I've also been to nudist beaches and partaken because, well, why not? After the initial 'ooh, this is all new' worry you just forget about it, and everyone just gets on with their own thing. Likewise, at the secluded villa we stayed in on holiday, I think I probably spent about 50% of my time there with nothing on - it was great; no need to wash swimwear to get 'swimming pool smell' and suncream out of them, no need to get tanlines , no worries about accidently spilling food or drink down your top at lunch, and no need to decide what to wear today lol

Anyway, that's all a bit of ramble so thanks for sticking with it!

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Not indecent or illegal and not a big deal, but I hope everyone who opts to do it will use a good sunscreen.

 

[House Cat]

Tits are sexual. Men's nipples are not. I can tease my husband's nipples all day long and he isn't going to get sexually aroused. If he brushes against mine, it's on. A woman can be brought to orgasm by nipples alone.

Women's breasts and a man's nipples are NOT the same. They just aren't.

I don't want to see a guy running down the street with his junk flopping up and down, hitting him in the belly button and in the same token, I don't want to see women baring all.

 

[kenny]

Tits are sexual. Men's nipples are not. I can tease my husband's nipples all day long and he isn't going to get sexually aroused. If he brushes against mine, it's on. A woman can be brought to orgasm by nipples alone.

Women's breasts and a man's nipples are NOT the same. They just aren't.

Oh, I disagree! ... speaking from experience and talking with many gay men.
You write, "A woman can be brought to orgasm by nipples alone."
So can a man.
Maybe not yours but as some guy says, people vary.

I can only assume (some? most?) straight men have been socialized to unconsciously disconnect the nerve endings around their nipples.
Maybe they consider arousal via that region to be a woman thing.
A pinch right before orgasm can send me over the top. FAST!
I know I'm not alone.
But accepting yourself as a gay man involves overcoming tons of narrow social programing about gender-specific expectations.

I'm astonished by your statement.

 

[House Cat]

Oh, I disagree! ... speaking from experience and talking with many gay men.
You write, "A woman can be brought to orgasm by nipples alone."
So can a man.
Maybe not yours but as some guy says, people vary.

I can only assume (some? most?) straight men have been socialized to unconsciously disconnect the nerve endings around their nipples.
Maybe they consider arousal via that region to be a woman thing.
A pinch right before orgasm can send me over the top. FAST!
I know I'm not alone.
But accepting yourself as a gay man involves overcoming tons of narrow social programing about gender-specific expectations.

I'm astonished by your statement.

Ok, then you'd better start wearing a shirt in public!

Thanks for the education.

I still don't want to see boobs, vaginas, or penises when I am out in public. I don't want my eyes or mind to be assaulted by someone's desire to be nude. The "don't look at it" defense doesn't work. I had to see it once and it will be forever burned into my mind.

Have a super strong need to be naked in front off a huge group of people? Take up stripping for a living, go to nude beaches, move to a nudist colony...but don't impose your lifestyle on me.

 

[kenny]

Ok, then you'd better start wearing a shirt in public!

Thanks for the education.

I still don't want to see boobs, vaginas, or penises when I am out in public. I don't want my eyes or mind to be assaulted by someone's desire to be nude. The "don't look at it" defense doesn't work. I had to see it once and it will be forever burned into my mind.

Have a super strong need to be naked in front off a huge group of people? Take up stripping for a living, go to nude beaches, move to a nudist colony...but don't impose your lifestyle on me.

Huh?

That women (or men) find a place on the body can be an erogenous zone means that part of the body is shameful and must be covered up in public?

What about lips?
Necks?
That erogenous zone behind the ear?
The palm of the hands?

Exposing those in public imposes a lifestyle onto you?
Well ... here you go ...
Mandating this clothing will protect your freedom from imposition, and wouldn't be at all imposing to anyone.

 

[Un_Petit_Rayon_de_Soleil]

I have no problem with topless women or men in appropriate settings. I would not want to see either in a restaurant or theater for example. I see nothing wrong with seeing women's breasts bared or having mine bare at the beach. I also grew up in a European family and lived in the South of France where it is pretty normal.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Yes I think they should - at the beach ... of course at almost 65 I would NOT DARE to do it unless I wanted to scare young women and young boys

 

[Dancing Fire]

I have no problem with topless women or men in appropriate settings. I would not want to see either in a restaurant or theater for example. I see nothing wrong with seeing women's breasts bared or having mine bare at the beach. I also grew up in a European family and lived in the South of France where it is pretty normal.

please!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Have a super strong need to be naked in front off a huge group of people? Take up stripping for a living, go to nude beaches, move to a nudist colony...but don't impose your lifestyle on me.

And you call yourself a liberal?...

 

[OreoRosies86]

There is modestly and there is shame, and sadly people have a difficult time distinguishing the two. I wholeheartedly reject the view that a person's body should be covered because the collective you have decided that you are looking at the person's body in a sexual way. Saying a person is getting naked because they want sexual attention is gross. Equating nudity with sex work is gross, not because stripping etc. is gross, but because you have literally zero idea of what their motivation to be nude is, yet you have taken it upon yourself to decide that because they are nude, they must want sexual attention. Take it a step further and throw in some "why should ugly people care about getting naked anyway, no one wants to f*** them" and you've got the perfect bigot trifecta. Nice.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Edit: oh never mind

 

[House Cat]

There is modestly and there is shame, and sadly people have a difficult time distinguishing the two. I wholeheartedly reject the view that a person's body should be covered because the collective you have decided that you are looking at the person's body in a sexual way. Saying a person is getting naked because they want sexual attention is gross. Equating nudity with sex work is gross, not because stripping etc. is gross, but because you have literally zero idea of what their motivation to be nude is, yet you have taken it upon yourself to decide that because they are nude, they must want sexual attention. Take it a step further and throw in some "why should ugly people care about getting naked anyway, no one wants to f*** them" and you've got the perfect bigot trifecta. Nice.

I get it. And you're right, it's gross. It would be super great if we lived in a world where men didn't objectify women. We don't. The **** industry is in the top ten biggest industries in the world. Women are objectified. This is reality. I don't make the rules Elliot. Society is still teaching our boys that women are sex objects.

And so, with that being reality...not the dream world that we want to live in, do you really want to be topless in your garden while the 12 year old neighbor boy looks at you? I don't.

Then again, I have spent my whole life being objectified by men. I have been groped and prodded and pinned and "what? She likes it" over and over again. I know how ugly men can be. I know the underbelly of their sexuality and it ain't pretty.

As a matter of fact, it's gross.

So yeah, my opinion is that I would love for all of us to prance around like we were back in the garden of eden, but we aren't.

I guess that makes me a terrible person. Judge away!

 

[OreoRosies86]

You do you. And if you're fine with rape being a fact of life you need to modify your behavior to, ok. If you look at the 12 year old neighborhood boy as a future rapist because objectifying women must be his future reality, ok. I still don't see what that has to do with your insistence that everyone else follow suit, but I suspect your opinion is unlikely to change so there you have it.

 

[House Cat]

You do you. And if you're fine with rape being a fact of life you need to modify your behavior to, ok. If you look at the 12 year old neighborhood boy as a future rapist because objectifying women must be his future reality, ok. I still don't see what that has to do with your insistence that everyone else follow suit, but I suspect your opinion is unlikely to change so there you have it.

Rape? No.

What a weird thing for you to say.

Hey, how about this Elliot, you get off the warpath with me and actually read what I'm saying because I'm not going to be your victim today. Go find amusement elsewhere.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Might I remind you that you originally quoted me. Say inflammatory things, expect inflammatory responses. I'm not going to modify my regular response just because I normally like and agree with you. But I do like you and appreciate your responses and you sound very angry so I do hope that gets better for you.

 

[OoohShiny]

I took from that post that a 12 year old boy is excited by seeing breasts because he doesn't normally see them.

If the parents (and society) embraced the fact that being naked != being sexual, in a similar way to the French giving their kids watered down wine with meals when a bottle is opened, it just becomes normal and nothing to be excited about. (The age of drinking being permitted in the USA is a whole other thread lol)

That's not to say sexual attraction doesn't exist, it's hardwired into us, but if you were used to your parents being naked when sunbathing or walking from the bathroom to the bedroom after a shower, it's not such a big deal when you do see other breasts.

 

[Un_Petit_Rayon_de_Soleil]

I believe in the United States so many things have become taboo and created problems that should not even exist. Showing breasts at the beach, or breastfeeding, should not be such a big deal. I find in areas that feel strongly against things that are natural, like nudity in appropriate settings, have a bigger problem with sexual deviants.