Should equality extend to women going shirtless, or is that indecent? Legal battle brewing

[kenny]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...y-730am:homepage/story&utm_term=.44a54c550ff9

Partial Snip:

A battle over bare-breasted women at one of Maryland’s most popular vacation spots is heating up as summer hits without a clear answer on whether women are free to be free at the beach.

With the heat approaching, authorities in Ocean City issued a memo this week directing the beach patrol not to confront bare-chested women or ask them to cover up regardless of complaints. The policy is to stand until the Maryland Attorney General’s Office opines on state indecent exposure laws after a local beachgoer declared that if men can go sans tops, then women can, too.

“It’s about equality, it’s about positivity, and it’s against body shaming and the forced sexualization of the female form,” said Chelsea Covington, a self-described “topfreedom” advocate who wrote a legal brief arguing that Maryland law allows women to go bare-chested in public. “It is most certainly about equality under the law.”

...

Female breast baring has caught the attention of courts across the country.

In February, a federal judge in Colorado blocked the city of Fort Collins from enforcing its ordinance that prohibits women, but not men, from exposing their chests in public.

 

[Bonfire]

Some shirtless guys look indecent! Lol

 

[Queenie60]

That's what nude beaches are for. I don't think it's appropriate. I know I'll take some heat for my comment however, I'm an old school girl and believe in modesty.

 

[telephone89]

If you don't like it, don't look. I don't know why someone would complain about this stuff (breast feeding included). It just doesn't seem like a big enough deal to me.

 

[Snowdrop13]

It's fine for men and women to be topless at the beach, why not? Walking around anywhere else- I think both should cover up!

 

[kenny]

It's fine for men and women to be topless at the beach, why not? Walking around anywhere else- I think both should cover up!

I pretty much agree.
I don't want to dine at a fine restaurant with topless women or men patrons.
IMO it's not appropriate ... emphasis IMO.

But that's exactly what makes this a messy thing for lawmakers, courts, the police, not to mention the community.
Opinions vary, so who's opinion should become the law?
... and how can laws even be based on opinions?
Do you just let the majority of voters decide? ... (that didn't go over to well with women, and thinking men, before women could vote).
When the majority gets their way the minority cries foul and points to the US Constitution.

Maybe the 'fair' and equal solution is to require men to cover their tops too.

Lots of places in Europe have shirtless equality and it's not like uncontrolled orgies break out in the streets every day.
Children's heads don't explode.
I do think too many Americans are too prudish about the body.

Tradition, you argue?
Poor argument ... For centuries slavery was the tradition.
America's founding fathers owned humans.
Shouldn't a healthy society constantly question whether how it IS now is how is should be?

 

[E B]

I don't see the big deal either, but I've breastfed for approx. 8 years (3 different kids, not an 8 year old ) so I'm a lot less modest than I used to be.

I was watching a comedy special the other night and the comedian made the point that it isn't the breast that's objectionable, it's the female nipple, apparently. I mean, look at some of the teeny bikinis that women wear. Some only cover the nipple and the, um, entrance anyway.

 

[E B]

This is breastfeeding-specific but it's the same idea.

 

[TooPatient]

That's what nude beaches are for. I don't think it's appropriate. I know I'll take some heat for my comment however, I'm an old school girl and believe in modesty.

I tend to agree.

Places should have the option to select how much or little their guests wear. If a person chooses to go to a tops optional location, then that is up to them. I would even say certain beaches/parks that are public property could be declared clothing optional (or tops optional) if a community wants that so long as they posted to let people know so they could decide to go or not.

 

[lyra]

It's legal where I live. I can understand not wanting to see either men or women topless though, in a very general sense. It's up to the individual though, and women DO get a lot more harassment about it regardless of the law. That's unfair.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Wherever a man is allowed to go shirtless, women should be able to do the same. I have slowly become more WTFever since my breakup. I basically stopped wearing makeup and threw out my bras. I am pretty much over being told what to do with my own body, society's standards be damned.

 

[cmd2014]

I just don't want to see it, personally. I can often say the same for men, but when the issue came up here in the 90's, most of us shrugged and decided to pass, legal or not. I feel the same about nude beaches. Just not my thing.

 

[AGBF]

I love the cartoon in E B's second post in this thread. It shows the total hyposcrisy exhibited in the United States towards the exhibition of women's flesh. At least orthodox Judaism; religious Islam; certain religious Christian groups like tha Amish have a dress code for everyone. For right or wrong, they believe that (because God wants it that way) there are parts that women should cover in public. Men, also, have things which they must do with their garments.

In the United States there are laws against women being seen topless in public for their own purposes whereas men can be, but women can dance topless in clubs to satisfy men. A woman who is of a lower class and has a certain sort of taste in clothing is likely to be labelled "slutty" if her buttocks are falling out of her short shorts or her cleavage is spilling out of her T-shirt while she is in a grocery store, yet an actress at a movie premiere can show as much leg (through a slit in an expensive gown) or bosom and be lauded for her taste because the gown is expensive and she is wearing it in the evening.

Since when is a woman's body shameful? Since when is she to be told what to wear? I grew up admiring Lilly Pulitzer; pink and green; penny loafers; and simple pearl earrings. But now i wear wild 24K gold jewelry. I think the Women's Movement in the 1970's should have raised some consciousnesses!

AGBF

 

[AGBF]

Wherever a man is allowed to go shirtless, women should be able to do the same. I have slowly become more WTFever since my breakup. I basically stopped wearing makeup and threw out my bras. I am pretty much over being told what to do with my own body, society's standards be damned.

I was typing while you were, Elliot. I'm with you (although I wear a bra).

Deb

 

[kenny]

IMO straight men don't want to see nursing.
The only breasts they want to see are those they can imagine available to them in a sexual context.
Yes many, perhaps most, straight men consider breasts to be sexual, thought I'm sure none of your husbands/boyfriends feel this way.

Beyond that, since (in their minds) boobs are part of the sex package the last thing they want to see is the possible RESULT of sex, a nursing infant, probably makes them think of child support.
Talk about a fantasy, and a boner, killer.

I'm not saying this is right, correct, admirable, defensible, or justified.
I'm just reporting that this is the stuff I've heard men say to each other in locker rooms and bars when no women are present.
As a gay man (who can pass as straight) I sometimes feel like perfect inadvertent spy where straight men are concerned.

All that said I certainly support freedom to feed the baby any time and anywhere the baby is hungry!
Straight men need to get over themselves when it comes to women doing this most natural thing.
And of course not all straight men fit this description.

 

[MissGotRocks]

This is the outcome thus far: http://wtop.com/local/2017/06/topless-flap-ocean-city-passes-emergency-law-banning-public-nudity/

 

[AGBF]

This is the outcome thus far: http://wtop.com/local/2017/06/topless-flap-ocean-city-passes-emergency-law-banning-public-nudity/

Thanks for the update, MGR. I read the comments by the self-described "grandmother" who was glad that it appeared that Ocean City would not be "topless' after all, since she wanted to pass away there, not have to move to Delaware. What I thought was: it is really important to be kind. This woman was raised in her culture. She probably would pull up stakes and move her household out of discomfort over a huge culture change. I thought, also, of Europe where large, elderly women all go nude on public beaches very comfortably. It is all what one is used to. We have to be kind to one another. Or, at least, I believe we should be.

 

[Arkteia]

In the 19th century, when baring one's ankle was a no-no, men would have the same response to a bare ankle as they have today to bare breast, maybe more. So until bare breasts are a taboo, we can not raise the men able to respond to female nudity in an adequate way, hence we have to start with gender equality.

I remember the girl I once knew. She was tall, lean, with smallish breasts, and she came from the country where "monokini" was the public beach norm, so during the weekend, she went to a beach wearing only trunks. On Monday, she was telling me about the experience. I think she called people on the beach "tribal", or "the Flintstones". It was in the 90-es, so if nothing has changed in 20 years, perhaps we should start enforcing gender equality in coverage, otherwise, we'll still be at the same place in 30 years?

 

[LLJsmom]

I can't get the fairness and logic issues out of my head. Both men and women have chests. Why can a man show his and a woman not hers? And why are women not allowed to show breast feed in public? That is the way many humans are fed from birth to age 1 or 2. Is there shame in that? I think it's a lot about what @kenny and @AGBF said. But I am also not hopeful that things will change much in the U.S. in my lifetime...

 

[Missy]

We are not treated as equal and it is painfully obvious in so many areas. If men can go shirtless so should women be allowed if they so choose. My preference is that no one go shirtless in public however unless one is on a beach of course. But walking down the street? Who wants to see a man shirtless? I don't. Reserve that for the beach and other appropriate areas IMO. But if a man can be shirtless of course a woman should be allowed to go shirtless as well. No question in my mind. The only question I have is why should anyone be shirtless if you are not somewhere like the beach?

 

[cmd2014]

At least orthodox Judaism; religious Islam; certain religious Christian groups like tha Amish have a dress code for everyone. For right or wrong, they believe that (because God wants it that way) there are parts that women should cover in public. Men, also, have things which they must do with their garments.

I actually think that there's still a fair bit of gender inequality in regard to dress codes for certain religious groups. Many groups here allow men to dress in Western style clothing, while the women are still required to wear traditional garb.

I also don't think that it is illegal for women to breast feed in public in most places. But I do think that many women prefer to go somewhere quiet and private to do so, so many public places now provide places where this can occur.

 

[kenny]

The only question I have is why should anyone be shirtless if you are not somewhere like the beach?

Because it's hot?
Because it just feels good to them?
Because they want to work on their tan?
Because they want to show off their nice body?
Because they have what is widely agreed to be an unattractive body so they want to make a self-affirming political statement about how unfair and unkind society can be?

 

[chemgirl]

It's legal for women to be topless here and honestly it isn't a big deal. I remember when the law originally passed there were women on the news mowing their lawns topless, riding bicycles topless, jogging topless, picking up the mail topless etc.

The novelty wore off pretty quickly and now you just see it at beaches sometimes. Practicality won out, jogging topless just sounds unpleasant.

To be honest I don't love seeing anyone wandering around shirtless at the park or whatever regardless of gender so there's that side to it. Any rule applying to men should also apply to women. It's only a big deal because people make it a big deal.

 

[cmd2014]

Because they have what is widely agreed to be an unattractive body so they want to make a self-affirming political statement about how unfair and unkind society can be?

That was pretty much it when the law got challenged here. The ones screaming the most about not wanting to be sexualized were the least likely to be having that happen...(edit: I know, it's anti-feminist to say, but it was more because of deliberate attempts to make themselves unattractive rather than an innate unattractiveness).

 

[AGBF]

Another piece of trivia. Or maybe just flotsam. My best friend and I were alone on a mountain top in Maine many years ago when we were in our late teens or early twenties picking blueberries. We decided to go topless since we were alone and it it was the 1960's (or soon after) and it seemed like fun. Well, I don't know what it was like for her, because she tanned, but I always burned. And my breasts had never been exposed to the sun. And the mountain top was deceptively full of rays that burned. (Who expected that? It wasn't the beach!) I had a terrible sunburn that was at first painful but later turned into the worst, itchiest mess I ever dealt with. All the skin on my chest peeled! It taught me a valuable lesson! People with my fair skin should never be in the sun anyway!

AGBF

 

[OreoRosies86]

That was pretty much it when the law got challenged here. The ones screaming the most about not wanting to be sexualized were the least likely to be having that happen...(edit: I know, it's anti-feminist to say, but it was more because of deliberate attempts to make themselves unattractive rather than an innate unattractiveness).

Ugh. Boo to this comment.

 

[Missy]

Because it's hot?
Because it just feels good to them?
Because they want to work on their tan?
Because they want to show off their nice body?
Because they have what is widely agreed to be an unattractive body so they want to make a self-affirming political statement about how unfair and unkind society can be?

OK -to each his/her own. No matter what people want to do regarding this issue it should be fair for either side to go topless or not. If men can do it then women should be able to do it too.

And as for breastfeeding yes we should be able to do it wherever we want. I mean if men breastfed how fast do you think it would become acceptable to breastfeed anywhere you wanted.

 

[Missy]

Another piece of trivia. Or maybe just flotsam. My best friend and I were alone on a mountain top in Maine many years ago when we were in our late teens or early twenties picking blueberries. We decided to go topless since we were alone and it it was the 1960's (or soon after) and it seemed like fun. Well, I don't know what it was like for her, because she tanned, but I always burned. And my breasts had never been exposed to the sun. And the mountain top was deceptively full of rays that burned. (Who expected that? It wasn't the beach!) I had a terrible sunburn that was at first painful but later turned into the worst, itchiest mess I ever dealt with. All the skin on my chest peeled! It taught me a valuable lesson! People with my fair skin should never be in the sun anyway!

AGBF

Agree completely. I always try to cover all my skin with spf clothing because I have no other choice. It isn't pretty when the sun's UV rays come in contact with my skin. I am truly what the medical community calls "allergic to UV rays".
Of course at this stage of life I am doing everyone a favor by staying covered up!

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

I just think things should be equal, if a man has permission to show his bare chest and nipples, a woman should have the same right. Dress codes should be equal. At a public beach, wear what you please. If you don't care to see that, go to a private one with stricter dress code rules. In NY a woman can be topless in public with no legal recourse, same as a man.

 

[cmd2014]

Ugh. Boo to this comment.

Elliot, I know...I'm even booing myself. But it was also kinda true. It was the 90's, what can I say? Radical feminism (as in the political advocacy branch that organized the topless marches here in order to challenge the law) in the 1990's had a definite "look" where I lived. My roommate (who helped organize the marches) shaved her head except for a womyn's symbol at the back. Grunge lumberjack shirts, combat boots, and heavy black framed glasses were the uniform, as was unshaved everything and a ban on cosmetics/deodorant products of all kinds. I'm not saying the message was off. I was just being cheeky about the look that went with it.

So what happened was the law was changed, women earned the right (at least in that small part of the world) to go topless, and everyone shrugged and went on exactly the same. Most of us figured it was uncomfortable to be without support (or clothes), and that there were bigger gender inequality fish to fry. Like pay inequity and other discriminatory employment issues (lack of paid maternity leave, failure to train women fairly or promote women into roles that they were more eminently qualified for than their promoted male counterparts, failure to provide for child care or time off for family emergencies), ingrained cultural issues of misogyny and sexism, issues of domestic violence and the lack of legal protections for women and children, access to reproductive health care and the like. In light of those other issues, it seemed silly to push so hard for something that could be so easily trivialized and that no-one ultimately really cared about.