shopping for a setting -- why do jewelry stores use those weird lights?

[Lula]

Hi, everyone,
I have been shopping for a setting for my new 1.00 Infinity M SI2 diamond (from Wink) and I went to Helzberg's (spelling?) while visiting a friend of mine, to look at their settings.

The first thing I noticed is that my M looked horrid under their lights -- dingy, grey-brown! The color it turned in their store was so disconcerting (my M has never looked that way under a variety of lighting conditions) that I decided not to even try on any of their settings.

My friend and I went to two other stores and my M looked the way it usually does -- soft white, candlelight color. I asked one of the SA's at the other jewelry stores about the color difference I saw while in Helzberg's, and he said, "oh, I used to work there; their lights have blue in them. We use lighting that mimics natural light."

So my question is, why would the blue lighting make my M look so strange? And what advantage does this lighting give jewelry stores? My M looked so strange in there that I would never buy a setting from them -- it would be too hard to judge what it would look like in IRL!

 

[D&T]

I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

 

[lvnut]

I have a K and I have the exact same problem! Most jewelry stores use those weird lights and my diamond ends up looking gray. I sometimes wonder if it''s because my stone has medium blue fluorescence, but I guess thats''s not the case!

 

[D&T]

Date: 8/7/2009 12:03:12 PM
Author: lvnut
I have a K and I have the exact same problem! Most jewelry stores use those weird lights and my diamond ends up looking gray. I sometimes wonder if it's because my stone has medium blue fluorescence, but I guess thats's not the case!

mine doesn't have any fluorescence and it looks a bit champagney/grey -not in a good way (and I like champagne colored diamond), not attractive at all in those lighting really weird. but my other jeweler that I got my reset from, looks amazing like how it should be

 

[Todd Gray]

Many jewelry stores use a combination of halogen lighting and blue dichromatic filters to enhance the look of the jewelry that they offer, we never used it in our jewelry store because I found the effect to be disturbing and misleading. While the halogen lighting certainly makes jewelry look brighter, I think it also creates a false impression of what the merchandise actually looks like, we elected to place chandeliers and day light fluorescent lighting throughout the store to create the effect of a more low key ambient lighting environment which closely resembled the lighting environment of most homes... In other words, we opted to try and create a lighting environment for the store which is similar to the lighting environment that most people live and work under so that the diamonds and jewelry would look similar in the store and in their own homes and at work.

Interestingly enough, people who simply wandered into the store would often ask "is this jewelry new?" followed by "because it doesn''t sparkle like the jewelry at (insert jewelery store name)" and then we would have to explain that we elected to use a more natural lighting environment. We actually kept a halogen lighting unit on one of the display cases so that we could show them how halogen lighting worked - and then they''d get mad at the other jeweler for trying to deceive them and we''d have to say "well you know, it''s just marketing."

 

[Stephan]

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM
Author: D&T
I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Does it mean that under strong lighting, AGS0 is not the best performer?

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 8/7/2009 12:44:35 PM
Author: QueenMum

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM

Author: D&T

I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Does it mean that under strong lighting, AGS0 is not the best performer?

Bright, Bright lighting will make even the worse cut diamond sparkle while burning out your retinas, but truly well cut diamonds don''t need to be pumped full of light to perform exceptionally. The late great Rock Doc (Graduate Gemologist Bill Lieberman) used to like to take a diamond into a dark closet and run a lit match around the perimeter by a foot or so to determine how well the diamond would perform when practically starved for light... I don''t believe that Sarap''s concern involved the visual performance of her Infinity cut diamond, but rather the effect that the store lighting had upon the color of her M color diamond which apparently did not mesh well with the blue dichromatic filters employed by the jewelry store in their lighting scheme.

 

[Stephan]

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM
Author: D&T
I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Under this lighting, did their diamonds sparkle more than yours?

 

[Stephan]

Date: 8/7/2009 12:52:38 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 8/7/2009 12:44:35 PM
Author: QueenMum

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM
Author: D&T
I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Does it mean that under strong lighting, AGS0 is not the best performer?

Bright, Bright lighting will make even the worse cut diamond sparkle while burning out your retinas, but truly well cut diamonds don''t need to be pumped full of light to perform exceptionally. The late great Rock Doc (Graduate Gemologist Bill Lieberman) used to like to take a diamond into a dark closet and run a lit match around the perimeter by a foot or so to determine how well the diamond would perform when practically starved for light... I don''t believe that Sarap''s concern involved the visual performance of her Infinity cut diamond, but rather the effect that the store lighting had upon the color of her M color diamond which apparently did not mesh well with the blue dichromatic filters employed by the jewelry store in their lighting scheme.

Of course, a Crafted by Infinity or ACA will have the best light return under soft natural lighting.

 

[D&T]

Date: 8/7/2009 12:58:28 PM
Author: QueenMum

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM
Author: D&T
I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Under this lighting, did their diamonds sparkle more than yours?

not sparkle sorry, but the color was murky compared to theirs.

 

[Amethyste]

Date: 8/7/2009 12:52:38 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 8/7/2009 12:44:35 PM
Author: QueenMum

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM

Author: D&T

I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Does it mean that under strong lighting, AGS0 is not the best performer?

Bright, Bright lighting will make even the worse cut diamond sparkle while burning out your retinas, but truly well cut diamonds don''t need to be pumped full of light to perform exceptionally. The late great Rock Doc (Graduate Gemologist Bill Lieberman) used to like to take a diamond into a dark closet and run a lit match around the perimeter by a foot or so to determine how well the diamond would perform when practically starved for light... I don''t believe that Sarap''s concern involved the visual performance of her Infinity cut diamond, but rather the effect that the store lighting had upon the color of her M color diamond which apparently did not mesh well with the blue dichromatic filters employed by the jewelry store in their lighting scheme.

Todd - your posts are always so informative!!!!

THank you for that. now i''ll go and see how my diamond performs in my closet with a match, trying to no catch my clothes on fire!

 

[Stephan]

Date: 8/7/2009 1:01:18 PM
Author: D&T

Date: 8/7/2009 12:58:28 PM
Author: QueenMum

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM
Author: D&T
I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Under this lighting, did their diamonds sparkle more than yours?

not sparkle sorry, but the color was murky compared to theirs.

Even a D color H&A will look dark under very strong lighting.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 8/7/2009 1:03:32 PM
Author: Amethyste
Todd - your posts are always so informative!!!!

THank you for that. now i''ll go and see how my diamond performs in my closet with a match, trying to no catch my clothes on fire!

Well I do believe that Bill used an empty closet to perform this trick... So no pyrotechnics okay?

Date: 8/7/2009 1:03:32 PM
Author:QueenMum
Even a D color H&A will look dark under very strong lighting.

So true! I know that QueenMum knows this, but I''ll explain why for other people who might not know why "even a D color H&A will look dark under very strong lighting"... This is actually because the blast of light denies the diamond the contrast required to create brilliance, dispersion and scintillation. Diamonds often appear dark when viewed in direct sunlight if there is nothing around or overhead to create contrast within the diamond, such as some clouds, a tree, a building, etc. I''ve always thought that one of the best places to propose is beneath a shady tree on a warm summer day because the contrast created by the leaves on the tree moving about in a soft breeze is exceptional!

This concept is essentially the science behind the ASET scope used by the AGS Laboratory in their light performance grading, the scope uses colored sections to emulate the light received by the diamond from different points levels within the room:

Green = 0° (the horizon) to 45°
Red = 45° to 75°
Blue = 75° to 90°

Red represents light coming from angles where there is likely to be bright, direct sources of illumination in most viewing environments. This color is dominant in the ASET image of a well-cut diamond.

Blue corresponds to light that normally is blocked by the viewer’s head and body. An ASET image with a moderate amount of this color in an attractive pattern means the diamond has good contrast.

Green is produced by low-angle light, which usually is reflected from walls or other objects in the surrounding area (rather than coming from direct sources). A diamond with a high cut quality may show small amounts of this color around the bezel area of the ASET image.

Note that when Red and Green areas appear mixed together in the center region of the diamond (above the culet) this simply indicates a kind of crossover between the sources of illumination within the realm of the 45° viewing angle.

Black or White appears in areas that do not return light under real-life viewing conditions. If a diamond is well cut, the ASET image will show only very small areas of black or white around the outer edge (and perhaps none).

 

[glitterata]

Date: 8/7/2009 1:20:51 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 8/7/2009 1:03:32 PM

Author:QueenMum

Even a D color H&A will look dark under very strong lighting.

So true! I know that QueenMum knows this, but I''ll explain why for other people who might not know why ''even a D color H&A will look dark under very strong lighting''... This is actually because the blast of light denies the diamond the contrast required to create brilliance, dispersion and scintillation. Diamonds often appear dark when viewed in direct sunlight if there is nothing around or overhead to create contrast within the diamond, such as some clouds, a tree, a building, etc. I''ve always thought that one of the best places to propose is beneath a shady tree on a warm summer day because the contrast created by the leaves on the tree moving about in a soft breeze is exceptional!

Todd, are you sure this is true? I thought the reason the sun makes diamonds go dark is that it''s essentially a very, VERY strong light source all from one direction, and the reason the tree makes the diamond sparkle like mad is that it breaks up the sunlight into hundreds of pinpoint lights coming from different directions.

I''m no expert, and you are, but that''s what I''d always read here on PS.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 8/7/2009 12:44:35 PM
Author: QueenMum

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM
Author: D&T
I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Does it mean that under strong lighting, AGS0 is not the best performer?

Possibly. . .recently I went into Ben Bridge to have my earrings cleaned (their ACAs) and they didn''t look very good after the washing. I was all prepared to show them off, but left the store feeling like an idiot! lol

Thank goodness there was a Starbucks close by to boost my confidence.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 8/7/2009 1:34:31 PM
Author: glitterata

Date: 8/7/2009 1:20:51 PM

Author: Todd Gray

Date: 8/7/2009 1:03:32 PM

Author:QueenMum

Even a D color H&A will look dark under very strong lighting.

So true! I know that QueenMum knows this, but I''ll explain why for other people who might not know why ''even a D color H&A will look dark under very strong lighting''... This is actually because the blast of light denies the diamond the contrast required to create brilliance, dispersion and scintillation. Diamonds often appear dark when viewed in direct sunlight if there is nothing around or overhead to create contrast within the diamond, such as some clouds, a tree, a building, etc. I''ve always thought that one of the best places to propose is beneath a shady tree on a warm summer day because the contrast created by the leaves on the tree moving about in a soft breeze is exceptional!

Todd, are you sure this is true? I thought the reason the sun makes diamonds go dark is that it''s essentially a very, VERY strong light source all from one direction, and the reason the tree makes the diamond sparkle like mad is that it breaks up the sunlight into hundreds of pinpoint lights coming from different directions.

I''m no expert, and you are, but that''s what I''d always read here on PS.

Maybe I''m not explaining it very well today, diamonds "go dark" when there is nothing to create contrast within the diamond. Contrast is most often the result of the shadow created by our heads as we look down upon the diamond, but in direct sunlight or very bright lighting (such as many jewelry store environments) the small amount of contrast created by our heads is often overshadowed (ha!) by the vast amount of light available - thus no contrast and very little visual performance.

So walk outside on a bright sunny day into a wide open area devoid of tall buildings and trees and an exceptional diamond suddenly looks dark and lacks brilliance, dispersion and scintillation. This is partially due to a lack of objects overhead to create contrast and partially due to how our eyes react to bright light, somewhere on the forum Strmrdr did an exceptional job of explaining this with a couple of diagrams... Then walk your diamond in an area that is partially shaded with exposure to the same bright sunny day and the diamond will suddenly come to life, it''s all about the contrast.

 

[litebrite]

Date: 8/7/2009 12:35:18 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Interestingly enough, people who simply wandered into the store would often ask 'is this jewelry new?' followed by 'because it doesn't sparkle like the jewelry at (insert jewelery store name)' and then we would have to explain that we elected to use a more natural lighting environment. We actually kept a halogen lighting unit on one of the display cases so that we could show them how halogen lighting worked - and then they'd get mad at the other jeweler for trying to deceive them and we'd have to say 'well you know, it's just marketing.'

I actually appreciate this. I have a dickens of a time figuring out if a given ring or piece of jewelry is going to look good at the office or at home, where I spend 90% of my time. Then I bring it back home and I'm upset because it doesn't light up the same way that it did in the store. If more stores actually had real life lighting, I would be more liable to buy. This shows your confidence in your product, and it's actual truth in advertising.

Also, who knew Todd was such a romantic? All this talk of dappled sunlight filtered through trees, I should have my husband re-propose!

 

[D&T]

Date: 8/7/2009 1:39:11 PM
Author: MC

Date: 8/7/2009 12:44:35 PM
Author: QueenMum

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM
Author: D&T
I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Does it mean that under strong lighting, AGS0 is not the best performer?

Possibly. . .recently I went into Ben Bridge to have my earrings cleaned (their ACAs) and they didn''t look very good after the washing. I was all prepared to show them off, but left the store feeling like an idiot! lol

Thank goodness there was a Starbucks close by to boost my confidence.

I know what you mean and you feel

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 8/7/2009 1:49:19 PM
Author: litebrite
Also, who knew Todd was such a romantic? All this talk of dappled sunlight filtered through trees, I should have my husband re-propose!

Valerie (my fiance) would like it to be known that while I might know the optimum lighting scenarios for presenting a diamond, that I''m definitely not that romantic. Apparently she''s been staring at the back of my head buried in a computer too much lately... Like right now for instance

Perhaps I should have refrained from quoting Litebrite''s reference to my being romantic because now I''m going to have to "be romantic" - ugh! And to think that I did "this" to myself!

 

[Lula]

Wow -- I just got off work and noticed all the responses to my thread -- thanks, everyone.

To the K color stone owners, thanks for your input; it's good to know it wasn't just me that this has happened to!

QueenMum, my AGS OOO Infinity definitely sparkles as much as the stones in the store; it was just the color that was so weird.

Todd, thanks for the light spectrum explanation. It's helpful to know that it is a trick of the trade. It must improve the look of their merchandise or they wouldn't invest the money in all that special lighting.

I have done the Rock Doc test with my Infinity and I am happy to say that it performs magnificently in low light! I went into the storage area of my basement, not a closet, but it was still a little dicey on the safety factor -- I wouldn't have wanted to explain myself to my insurance agent if I'd accidentally caused a fire while I was doing the "test"!

 

[Venice]

"Bright, Bright lighting will make even the worse cut diamond sparkle while burning out your retinas, but truly well cut diamonds don''t need to be pumped full of light to perform exceptionally. The late great Rock Doc (Graduate Gemologist Bill Lieberman) used to like to take a diamond into a dark closet and run a lit match around the perimeter by a foot or so to determine how well the diamond would perform when practically starved for light..."

I just finished this experiment in my basement bathroom. I used a candle lighter on it''s lowest setting. It was truly amazing! Sort of like when I go to a stage show and the lights in the theatre dim down low. Thanks for the info!

 

[D&T]

Date: 8/7/2009 11:25:13 PM
Author: Venice
'Bright, Bright lighting will make even the worse cut diamond sparkle while burning out your retinas, but truly well cut diamonds don't need to be pumped full of light to perform exceptionally. The late great Rock Doc (Graduate Gemologist Bill Lieberman) used to like to take a diamond into a dark closet and run a lit match around the perimeter by a foot or so to determine how well the diamond would perform when practically starved for light...'

I just finished this experiment in my basement bathroom. I used a candle lighter on it's lowest setting. It was truly amazing! Sort of like when I go to a stage show and the lights in the theatre dim down low. Thanks for the info!

hahaha! I just tried it too with a match... luckily I have a walk in closet so none of my clothes were nearby the experiment and gotta say that it still sparkles I see more white flashes though not so much fire...yah

 

[niceice21]

Ok, so I''m kinda confused on this whole situation...I am trying to follow what you guys are saying but I guess I''ll just come out and ask what''s on my mind. Are you saying that if I find a stone (such as a F or G color) that I like online and it has all the right "specs", and a beautiful idealscope/aset/hearts, is an "ACA" or similar from another vendor, and scores excellent on the HCA, I could take it in to a store like kays, zales, etc. and it may not look as nice as their "inferior" cut stones because of their lighting?? Something seems off to me...just when I thought I was getting things figured out....So where exactly would my future fiance need to be in order to show off her new diamond? In a closet with a match? What gives?

 

[D&T]

Date: 8/8/2009 3:33:53 AM
Author: niceice21
Ok, so I'm kinda confused on this whole situation...I am trying to follow what you guys are saying but I guess I'll just come out and ask what's on my mind. Are you saying that if I find a stone (such as a F or G color) that I like online and it has all the right 'specs', and a beautiful idealscope/aset/hearts, is an 'ACA' or similar from another vendor, and scores excellent on the HCA, I could take it in to a store like kays, zales, etc. and it may not look as nice as their 'inferior' cut stones because of their lighting?? Something seems off to me...just when I thought I was getting things figured out....So where exactly would my future fiance need to be in order to show off her new diamond? In a closet with a match? What gives?

Actually I find that my diamond does not look the greatest color wise because it is a lower color in many Mall store lighting because many blare out these obnoxious lighting and mislead really. But in every where else work, grocery stores, natural daylight everywhere BUT a mall Jewelry store, my diamond COLOR as well looks phenomenal. Like it has been mentioned even in the brightest Direct sunlight as

Todd mentions here:

"Maybe I'm not explaining it very well today, diamonds "go dark" when there is nothing to create contrast within the diamond. Contrast is most often the result of the shadow created by our heads as we look down upon the diamond, but in direct sunlight or very bright lighting (such as many jewelry store environments) the small amount of contrast created by our heads is often overshadowed (ha!) by the vast amount of light available - thus no contrast and very little visual performance.

So walk outside on a bright sunny day into a wide open area devoid of tall buildings and trees and an exceptional diamond suddenly looks dark and lacks brilliance, dispersion and scintillation. This is partially due to a lack of objects overhead to create contrast and partially due to how our eyes react to bright light, somewhere on the forum Strmrdr did an exceptional job of explaining this with a couple of diagrams... Then walk your diamond in an area that is partially shaded with exposure to the same bright sunny day and the diamond will suddenly come to life, it's all about the contrast."

ETA: my husband bought a princess cut zale earrings, horrible diamond performance and it looks nice in their lighting, but fail to perform elsewhere, if that makes sense

 

[Lula]

hi, niceice2,
It is confusing, I agree. But here's what I understand:

An F or G (colorless-near colorless) diamond will not change color under jewelry store lighting. Before I owned my M, I had a D colored diamond (colorless) diamond, and it did not change color in a jewelry store.

Owners of lower color stones, like K, L, M, and lower (mine is an M) may see this weird color change in some jewelry store lighting.

Performance is more complicated. There have been many threads about "fire versus brilliance," and I'm not an expert on cut by any stretch of the imagination (!) but it's my understanding that jewelry store lighting pumps up the flashes of stones that are not well cut, but when you take the stones out in "normal" lighting, they are blah-looking.

Conversely, ideal cut stones under jewelry store lights may look different than the less well-cut stones, but I wouldn't say they look bad compared to the less well-cut stones.

Paul Slegers had a post awhile back that explained how ideal cut diamonds outperform diamonds that are not so well cut without sacrificing fire or brilliance. I just can't find the post right now!

Also, I am remembering a previous thread about lower girdle facet length, and how stones cut with longer lgf's (>80%) look great in jewelry store lighting because the longer lgf's really pop under that lighting...again, I can't remember the details, so if someone else out there who knows more about this than me (Storm, John Pollard, Paul Slegers, Rhino, Wink, etc.) can help out here, please do!!

 

[niceice21]

Thanks for clearing that up for me! I was a little worried...I''m trying to do the best job I can in researching what to get her and have been browsing this site for a while now. I guess what got me was that I want her to be absolutely in love with the diamond I give her. She doesn''t know anything about diamonds and once made a comment about how it had to be a carat "according to her friends." I then asked if she would prefer a stone that was bigger or would look better and she decided that she would sacrifice size for performance so if I show up with a stone that doesn''t perform as well as the stones that she sees in the "mall" and it''s smaller than what she hoped for, I''d feel like a clown! That''s what had me worried about this conversation...

 

[Snicklefritz]

Date: 8/7/2009 11:52:40 AM
Author: D&T
I don''t know either, but when I went into one of those mall store, just for some ideas - my diamond is a K and AGSO so I know its a sparkly one. but it also looked horrid!

But it sure made their diamonds look good

but I know better than to buy theirs.

Oh I''ve noticed this as well. It''s very disheartening. So glad to know more about the lighting conditions that cause my K to look all muddy. I always expected it would look nicer in the stores, but not the case. Looks much whiter and clearer at home - much rather have it this way than the other way around. This thread has been so interesting!

 

[jstarfireb]

I''ve had the same experience, and every time it baffles me. My stone is an I color ACA princess that performs beautifully under a variety of lighting conditions. But when I take it into a jewelry store like Helzberg or even Tiffany, it looks dull, the sparkle is nonexistent, the I color looks murky yellow (which is not at all what the true color is), and I feel almost embarrassed pulling it out to compare to the bright sparkling fireballs from the store. So I guess what puzzles me is why jewelry store lighting makes diamonds of lesser cut quality look so good, whereas it is the least flattering for well-cut stones. Or in the case of Tiffany, their diamonds are certainly not poorly cut, yet they still look great under the lights whereas my stone looks dull. Sometimes it makes me second-guess my choice of an ACA princess for a split second (then I walk outside and remember why it''s an AGS ideal). What am I missing?

 

[guitarsail]

I am just itching to get my recently bought stone home and off of layaway as i pay it off, to try the match in closet trick to see how much she shines. The sales guy let me walk all over the store with all of the various lights they have (on purpose so you could get an idea under different lighting conditions) and even in the darkest spot in the room i could find (they have an area just for this) that thing glowed. Cant wait to see it in a dark room with a candle!!! Great idea!

 

[marcy]

Very interesting discussion. You know I''ll be playing with a match tomorrow somewhere in the house checking out my E AGSO.

Mine does go dark in direct sunlight. I hate the lighting in mall jewelers and I agree if they had more natural real life lighting I''d be lest likely to return something I bought from them. Of course, I pretty much don''t buy from them any more but I used to and many items went back.