Separation of Church and State

[ruby59]

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/02/02/president-trump-wants-change-rules-churches/21705917/


Now I am not sure about all of this and will have to see where it goes.

But I do agree that a teacher should not be fired if she wishes her students a Merry Christmas.

And the one where an 8 year old, below, gets suspended for wishing her teacher a "Merry Christmas."

http://cbsnews.com.co/8-year-old-suspended-for-saying-merry-christmas-to-teacher/

When will this madness stop?

 

[monarch64]

Ugh. If we are going to separate the two, it needs to be done consistently. Can't say it in schools? Then don't say it in the post office, or the courthouse, etc. Inauguration with prayer? Does not compute. "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? But kids can't talk about Christmas? Totally ridiculous.

 

[ruby59]

I think this proves that there was not just one reason or even two of why so many were looking for a change with Trump.

Some of this PC was getting way out of hand.

I remember in my home city 2 incidents.

We had a so called religious plaque in my high school that was given by the first graduating class and sat on a wall in the auditorium for 50 years. One atheist student claimed it made her feel uncomfortable. Turns out it was her parents behind it. They got an ahteist group involved, and the school did not have the money to fight it if they lost. So they were forced to take it down.

Another case. Someone put up a monument to 3 Italian soldiers from Rhode Island who were killed in the War. It was across from his shop on so called public land that he mowed and maintained. There was a cross on it. Why, because the 3 soldiers who gave their lives for their Country were Catholic. ACLU again wanted them to take it down. Luckily, there was such backlash, they relented.

 

[Matata]

I'm confused whether separation of church and state ever existed. Of more serious concern than whether or not Merry Christmas is offensive is the possibility that we will be engaging in global religious war.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/02/steve-bannon-donald-trump-war-south-china-sea-no-doubt?CMP=fb_gu
The United States and China will fight a war within the next 10 years over islands in the South China Sea, and “there’s no doubt about that”. At the same time, the US will be in another “major” war in the Middle East.

Those are the views – nine months ago at least – of one of the most powerful men in Donald Trump’s administration, Steve Bannon, the former head of far-right news website Breitbart who is now chief strategist at the White House.

In the first weeks of Trump’s presidency, Bannon has emerged as a central figure. He was appointed to the “principals committee” of the National Security Council in a highly unusual move and was influential in the recent travel ban on citizens from seven Muslim-majority countries, overruling Department of Homeland Security officials who felt the order did not apply to green card holders.

While many in Trump’s team are outspoken critics of China, in radio shows Bannon hosted for Breitbart he makes plain the two largest threats to America: China and Islam.

“We’re going to war in the South China Sea in five to 10 years,” he said in March 2016. “There’s no doubt about that. They’re taking their sandbars and making basically stationary aircraft carriers and putting missiles on those. They come here to the United States in front of our face – and you understand how important face is – and say it’s an ancient territorial sea.”

China says nearly the entire South China Sea falls within its territory, with half a dozen other countries maintaining partially overlapping claims. China has built a series of artificial islands on reefs and rocks in attempt to bolster its position, complete with military-length airstrips and anti-aircraft weapons.

Bannon’s sentiments and his position in Trump’s inner circle add to fears of a military confrontation with China, after secretary of state Rex Tillerson said that the US would deny China access to the seven artificial islands. Experts warned any blockade would lead to war.

Bannon is clearly wary of China’s growing clout in Asia and beyond, framing the relationship as entirely adversarial, predicting a global culture clash in the coming years.

“You have an expansionist Islam and you have an expansionist China. Right? They are motivated. They’re arrogant. They’re on the march. And they think the Judeo-Christian west is on the retreat,” Bannon said during a February 2016 radio show.

On the day Trump was inaugurated, China’s military warned that war between the two countries was a real possibility.

“A ‘war within the president’s term’ or ‘war breaking out tonight’ are not just slogans, they are becoming a practical reality,” an official wrote on the website of the People’s Liberation Army.

Aside from conflict between armies, Bannon repeatedly focused on his perception that Christianity around the world is under threat.
In one radio show, used to promote an article incorrectly claiming that a mosque had been built at the North Pole, Bannon focused heavily on China’s oppression of Christian groups.

“The one thing the Chinese fear more than America … they fear Christianity more than anything,” he said.

But China is not the only hotspot Bannon sees, and forecasts another ground war for American troops in the Middle East.

“Some of these situations may get a little unpleasant,” Bannon said in November 2015. “But you know what, we’re in a war. We’re clearly going into, I think, a major shooting war in the Middle East again.”

He also branded Islam as “the most radical” religion in the world, and moved swiftly since entering the White House to enact policies hostile to Muslims. Some have called Trump’s central doctrine a “war on Islam”.

Meanwhile, cheeto and his merry band of men deny that the Muslim ban wasn't about religion

 

[bunnycat]

I'm confused whether separation of church and state ever existed. Of more serious concern than whether or not Merry Christmas is offensive is the possibility that we will be engaging in global religious war.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/02/steve-bannon-donald-trump-war-south-china-sea-no-doubt?CMP=fb_gu
The United States and China will fight a war within the next 10 years over islands in the South China Sea, and “there’s no doubt about that”. At the same time, the US will be in another “major” war in the Middle East.

Those are the views – nine months ago at least – of one of the most powerful men in Donald Trump’s administration, Steve Bannon, the former head of far-right news website Breitbart who is now chief strategist at the White House.

In the first weeks of Trump’s presidency, Bannon has emerged as a central figure. He was appointed to the “principals committee” of the National Security Council in a highly unusual move and was influential in the recent travel ban on citizens from seven Muslim-majority countries, overruling Department of Homeland Security officials who felt the order did not apply to green card holders.

While many in Trump’s team are outspoken critics of China, in radio shows Bannon hosted for Breitbart he makes plain the two largest threats to America: China and Islam.

“We’re going to war in the South China Sea in five to 10 years,” he said in March 2016. “There’s no doubt about that. They’re taking their sandbars and making basically stationary aircraft carriers and putting missiles on those. They come here to the United States in front of our face – and you understand how important face is – and say it’s an ancient territorial sea.”


China says nearly the entire South China Sea falls within its territory, with half a dozen other countries maintaining partially overlapping claims. China has built a series of artificial islands on reefs and rocks in attempt to bolster its position, complete with military-length airstrips and anti-aircraft weapons.

Bannon’s sentiments and his position in Trump’s inner circle add to fears of a military confrontation with China, after secretary of state Rex Tillerson said that the US would deny China access to the seven artificial islands. Experts warned any blockade would lead to war.

Bannon is clearly wary of China’s growing clout in Asia and beyond, framing the relationship as entirely adversarial, predicting a global culture clash in the coming years.

“You have an expansionist Islam and you have an expansionist China. Right? They are motivated. They’re arrogant. They’re on the march. And they think the Judeo-Christian west is on the retreat,” Bannon said during a February 2016 radio show.

On the day Trump was inaugurated, China’s military warned that war between the two countries was a real possibility.

“A ‘war within the president’s term’ or ‘war breaking out tonight’ are not just slogans, they are becoming a practical reality,” an official wrote on the website of the People’s Liberation Army.

Aside from conflict between armies, Bannon repeatedly focused on his perception that Christianity around the world is under threat.
In one radio show, used to promote an article incorrectly claiming that a mosque had been built at the North Pole, Bannon focused heavily on China’s oppression of Christian groups.

“The one thing the Chinese fear more than America … they fear Christianity more than anything,” he said.

But China is not the only hotspot Bannon sees, and forecasts another ground war for American troops in the Middle East.

“Some of these situations may get a little unpleasant,” Bannon said in November 2015. “But you know what, we’re in a war. We’re clearly going into, I think, a major shooting war in the Middle East again.”

He also branded Islam as “the most radical” religion in the world, and moved swiftly since entering the White House to enact policies hostile to Muslims. Some have called Trump’s central doctrine a “war on Islam”.

Meanwhile, cheeto and his merry band of men deny that the Muslim ban wasn't about religion

yes- I saw that Bannon quote. I'm sure there will be something coming down the pipeline soon quietly in the background if there is another emotional distraction sitting out there now wreaking havoc....

 

[ruby59]

Right now, I am more concerned with the here and now and that 8 year old who loved school, and was traumatized because she innocently wished someone a Merry Christmas.

 

[lovedogs]

I would argue that a real concern we face in the "here and now" is that some are trying to crumble the separation between church and state. There is no national religion in the US, and there shouldn't be. I certainly don't think it's offensive to wish someone "merry christmas", but do think that church and state need to be separated in order to keep from becoming somewhere that forces religion on people who do not believe it.

The Trump administration seems hell bent on bringing church and state closer together, which is a scary possibility given the implications.

 

[ruby59]

I would argue that a real concern we face in the "here and now" is that some are trying to crumble the separation between church and state. There is no national religion in the US, and there shouldn't be. I certainly don't think it's offensive to wish someone "merry christmas", but do think that church and state need to be separated in order to keep from becoming somewhere that forces religion on people who do not believe it.

The Trump administration seems hell bent on bringing church and state closer together, which is a scary possibility given the implications.

And go back to my original post. I am not sure about what Trump is going to do, and will need to take a wait and see approach.

Religion should not be forced on anyone.

But neither should anyone be punished because they choose to exercise their freedom to do so.

And innocent children should not be dragged through the mud and put into the middle of it.

 

[Tekate]

Right now, I am more concerned with the here and now and that 8 year old who loved school, and was traumatized because she innocently wished someone a Merry Christmas.

When I was a little 8 year old girl and was allowed to say Merry Christmas in public school, I never once thought about the Jewish kids in my class. Years later my Jewish friend told me how painful it was and how she felt pressure from her parents to be Jewish and horrible pressure and sadness at school because there was no mention of Jewish traditions, she felt outcast and alone (she said a lot more than this actually).. It reads like the principal was on a power trip; seriously who suspends little 8 year olds.. the child should be able to say, happy kwanzaa! Merry Christmas! Happy Christmas! Happy Festivus! whatever she feels like wishing someone at a holiday season. The principal was wrong. On a huge power trip btw.. Donald will fire him! (j/k)

There were atheists 50+ years ago, they lived in America, people can get along as long as no one forces their religious views and atheist views on another. My whole family is atheist, we put up our tree, we have lights, I love to watch Christmas movies.. I have a nativity from Germany that my closest friend brought back to me after she lived there for a year, it's a beautiful wooden set, I love it.. I love it for the craftsmanship and beauty, my across the street neighbors are Hindu and they have their festival of lights, I bring them over some brownies for their kids... We all get along just fine, we are a nice little community. There's santa christmas and there is the birth of what the christians believe to be the savior. To each their own.

 

[ruby59]

Right now, I am more concerned with the here and now and that 8 year old who loved school, and was traumatized because she innocently wished someone a Merry Christmas.

When I was a little 8 year old girl and was allowed to say Merry Christmas in public school, I never once thought about the Jewish kids in my class. Years later my Jewish friend told me how painful it was and how she felt pressure from her parents to be Jewish and horrible pressure and sadness at school because there was no mention of Jewish traditions, she felt outcast and alone (she said a lot more than this actually).. It reads like the principal was on a power trip; seriously who suspends little 8 year olds.. the child should be able to say, happy kwanzaa! Merry Christmas! Happy Christmas! Happy Festivus! whatever she feels like wishing someone at a holiday season. The principal was wrong. On a huge power trip btw.. Donald will fire him! (j/k)

There were atheists 50+ years ago, they lived in America, people can get along as long as no one forces their religious views and atheist views on another. My whole family is atheist, we put up our tree, we have lights, I love to watch Christmas movies.. I have a nativity from Germany that my closest friend brought back to me after she lived there for a year, it's a beautiful wooden set, I love it.. I love it for the craftsmanship and beauty, my across the street neighbors are Hindu and they have their festival of lights, I bring them over some brownies for their kids... We all get along just fine, we are a nice little community. There's santa christmas and there is the birth of what the christians believe to be the savior. To each their own.

Brings back a memory for me. You know I am Jewish, my husband is Italian - Catholic. We both maintain our separate religions as no one converted. Our children were exposed to both. We had a Christmas tree and Hanukkah menorah. We celebrated Passover and Easter.

One year when one of my girls was young, the teacher asked who celebrates Christmas. My daughter raised her hand. Then she asked who celebrated Hanukkah. Again my daughter raised her hand. Teacher told her she must be confused.

Well, mama bear marched right up there and set her straight. The next years, we had kids who raised their hand 3 times when asked about Christmas, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa. Things can be worked out without calling in the ACLU or denying that any of it exists.

 

[telephone89]

I personally believe the student should not have been punished, but its iffy on a teacher. While in general, I don't think anyone should be 'punished' for wishing some well (xmas/kwanza/Ramadan/whatever), I can see an argument as such:

The teacher is the leader in the classroom. Things that the teachers do and say create the environment for the children (ideally, to learn). So if one teacher is pushing their specific religion/creating a religious environment that not all the kids celebrate, some of the non-celebrated kids might feel left out. I would think the teacher would do his/her best to make sure all of his/her students felt appreciated and included. So rather than singling out one specific religion, learn about all the holiday celebrations - dedicate a different day/week to each or something. We (us/Canada both) are multicultural. I think its important to highlight and celebrate all parts of that, not just the Christian ones.

I'm also an atheist who regularly wishes people merry Christmas though, so I'm probably just off my rocker

 

[Tekate]

Right now, I am more concerned with the here and now and that 8 year old who loved school, and was traumatized because she innocently wished someone a Merry Christmas.

When I was a little 8 year old girl and was allowed to say Merry Christmas in public school, I never once thought about the Jewish kids in my class. Years later my Jewish friend told me how painful it was and how she felt pressure from her parents to be Jewish and horrible pressure and sadness at school because there was no mention of Jewish traditions, she felt outcast and alone (she said a lot more than this actually).. It reads like the principal was on a power trip; seriously who suspends little 8 year olds.. the child should be able to say, happy kwanzaa! Merry Christmas! Happy Christmas! Happy Festivus! whatever she feels like wishing someone at a holiday season. The principal was wrong. On a huge power trip btw.. Donald will fire him! (j/k)

There were atheists 50+ years ago, they lived in America, people can get along as long as no one forces their religious views and atheist views on another. My whole family is atheist, we put up our tree, we have lights, I love to watch Christmas movies.. I have a nativity from Germany that my closest friend brought back to me after she lived there for a year, it's a beautiful wooden set, I love it.. I love it for the craftsmanship and beauty, my across the street neighbors are Hindu and they have their festival of lights, I bring them over some brownies for their kids... We all get along just fine, we are a nice little community. There's santa christmas and there is the birth of what the christians believe to be the savior. To each their own.

Brings back a memory for me. You know I am Jewish, my husband is Italian - Catholic. We both maintain our separate religions as no one converted. Our children were exposed to both. We had a Christmas tree and Hanukkah menorah. We celebrated Passover and Easter.

One year when one of my girls was young, the teacher asked who celebrates Christmas. My daughter raised her hand. Then she asked who celebrated Hanukkah. Again my daughter raised her hand. Teacher told her she must be confused.

Well, mama bear marched right up there and set her straight. The next years, we had kids who raised their hand 3 times when asked about Christmas, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa. Things can be worked out without calling in the ACLU or denying that any of it exists.

Absolutely Ruby, we don't need to call the cops, ACLU etc all the time, we need to speak to each other

I hate to say this but that website with the little girl suspended, it's a fake site.. I like to pride myself on always checking but I didn't till after I posted..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Horner

soo just goes to show me I must be more vigilant..

http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/suspended.asp

 

[katharath]

My 3rd grader was told by several of his classmates that he would be "burning in hell" because he doesn't believe in God. Yes, that happened, this past December, in public school, literally in the classroom; his teacher (who I've known for many years) witnessed it. He came home very upset that day. There was a small group of kids, (3, I believe) that ganged up on him and chanted repeatedly that he would "burn in hell" after one kid started it by questioning his belief in God and whether or not he went to church. His teacher (who is a Christian and is someone I have a lot of respect for) shut it down and chewed those kids out (she told me later), but she wasn't aware of it until my son was in tears.

Unlike the above "news" story, this one actually happened. My kids have had several similar experiences over the years, all in the classrooms of public schools. I've had to teach them to take the high road and to ignore this type of behavior. They do not speak up about God unless they're specifically asked; even then, my older son will lie about it to avoid conflict. They know from past experience that they will be bullied if they don't profess to a belief in God. I have several similar anecdotes. It's pretty sickening. (We do celebrate "Christian" holidays but purely for the kids' enjoyment).

So yes, you could say I believe pretty strongly in separation of church vs state. Sure would be nice if those "Christian" kids would quit bullying mine simply for not believing as they do!

 

[jordyonbass]

One thing I have never understood is how the religious don't understand why separation of church and state is so important; it ensures to protect their belief against the tyranny of the majority and ensures true freedom of religion, including freedom FROM religion. The US' biggest proponent of separation of church and state is a Protestant preacher FWIW.

For those who are offended by 'Merry Christmas'; a couple things to consider is that christmas is derived from the winter solstice pagan festival and has nothing to do with christianity. It's become a secular holiday in it's own right and while some may feel it's not their culture they still have a right to celebrate. After all, I have just began celebrating Diwali with my Indian friends for the good times

 

[DAF]

From Wikipedia:

"Separation of church and state" is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States which reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to a January 1, 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper. Jefferson wrote,

“ "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."[1]

 

[lovedogs]

My 3rd grader was told by several of his classmates that he would be "burning in hell" because he doesn't believe in God. Yes, that happened, this past December, in public school, literally in the classroom; his teacher (who I've known for many years) witnessed it. He came home very upset that day. There was a small group of kids, (3, I believe) that ganged up on him and chanted repeatedly that he would "burn in hell" after one kid started it by questioning his belief in God and whether or not he went to church. His teacher (who is a Christian and is someone I have a lot of respect for) shut it down and chewed those kids out (she told me later), but she wasn't aware of it until my son was in tears.

Unlike the above "news" story, this one actually happened. My kids have had several similar experiences over the years, all in the classrooms of public schools. I've had to teach them to take the high road and to ignore this type of behavior. They do not speak up about God unless they're specifically asked; even then, my older son will lie about it to avoid conflict. They know from past experience that they will be bullied if they don't profess to a belief in God. I have several similar anecdotes. It's pretty sickening. (We do celebrate "Christian" holidays but purely for the kids' enjoyment).

So yes, you could say I believe pretty strongly in separation of church vs state. Sure would be nice if those "Christian" kids would quit bullying mine simply for not believing as they do!

I am not a fan of using personal anecdotes in order to prove a point about things generally, but just in case anyone questions whether these things "actually happen", I can add my voice to Kath's. My parents raised me atheist (although we celebrated Xmas and Hanukkah as a cultural/family event). I went to a VERY liberal school (and am 30, so didn't grow up too long ago), and was regularly told I was going to "burn in hell" or "go to hell" for not believing in god. Classmates told me this regularly, as it was something I assume they'd heard from their parents or elsewhere. It was extremely unpleasant.

 

[katharath]

My 3rd grader was told by several of his classmates that he would be "burning in hell" because he doesn't believe in God. Yes, that happened, this past December, in public school, literally in the classroom; his teacher (who I've known for many years) witnessed it. He came home very upset that day. There was a small group of kids, (3, I believe) that ganged up on him and chanted repeatedly that he would "burn in hell" after one kid started it by questioning his belief in God and whether or not he went to church. His teacher (who is a Christian and is someone I have a lot of respect for) shut it down and chewed those kids out (she told me later), but she wasn't aware of it until my son was in tears.

Unlike the above "news" story, this one actually happened. My kids have had several similar experiences over the years, all in the classrooms of public schools. I've had to teach them to take the high road and to ignore this type of behavior. They do not speak up about God unless they're specifically asked; even then, my older son will lie about it to avoid conflict. They know from past experience that they will be bullied if they don't profess to a belief in God. I have several similar anecdotes. It's pretty sickening. (We do celebrate "Christian" holidays but purely for the kids' enjoyment).

So yes, you could say I believe pretty strongly in separation of church vs state. Sure would be nice if those "Christian" kids would quit bullying mine simply for not believing as they do!

I am not a fan of using personal anecdotes in order to prove a point about things generally, but just in case anyone questions whether these things "actually happen", I can add my voice to Kath's. My parents raised me atheist (although we celebrated Xmas and Hanukkah as a cultural/family event). I went to a VERY liberal school (and am 30, so didn't grow up too long ago), and was regularly told I was going to "burn in hell" or "go to hell" for not believing in god. Classmates told me this regularly, as it was something I assume they'd heard from their parents or elsewhere. It was extremely unpleasant.

I am sorry you went through that. I think it's probably much more common than people would like to think. We are expected to be so accommodating to everyone's religions - and in my family, we are - yet we frequently do not get the same treatment in return. But I don't usually go around talking about this; strangely, there aren't any highly publicized "news" articles about the poor treatment atheists get at the hands of the religious. All I seem to hear about is the "war on Christmas", which is, frankly, an utter joke.

 

[lovedogs]

My 3rd grader was told by several of his classmates that he would be "burning in hell" because he doesn't believe in God. Yes, that happened, this past December, in public school, literally in the classroom; his teacher (who I've known for many years) witnessed it. He came home very upset that day. There was a small group of kids, (3, I believe) that ganged up on him and chanted repeatedly that he would "burn in hell" after one kid started it by questioning his belief in God and whether or not he went to church. His teacher (who is a Christian and is someone I have a lot of respect for) shut it down and chewed those kids out (she told me later), but she wasn't aware of it until my son was in tears.

Unlike the above "news" story, this one actually happened. My kids have had several similar experiences over the years, all in the classrooms of public schools. I've had to teach them to take the high road and to ignore this type of behavior. They do not speak up about God unless they're specifically asked; even then, my older son will lie about it to avoid conflict. They know from past experience that they will be bullied if they don't profess to a belief in God. I have several similar anecdotes. It's pretty sickening. (We do celebrate "Christian" holidays but purely for the kids' enjoyment).

So yes, you could say I believe pretty strongly in separation of church vs state. Sure would be nice if those "Christian" kids would quit bullying mine simply for not believing as they do!

I am not a fan of using personal anecdotes in order to prove a point about things generally, but just in case anyone questions whether these things "actually happen", I can add my voice to Kath's. My parents raised me atheist (although we celebrated Xmas and Hanukkah as a cultural/family event). I went to a VERY liberal school (and am 30, so didn't grow up too long ago), and was regularly told I was going to "burn in hell" or "go to hell" for not believing in god. Classmates told me this regularly, as it was something I assume they'd heard from their parents or elsewhere. It was extremely unpleasant.

I am sorry you went through that. I think it's probably much more common than people would like to think. We are expected to be so accommodating to everyone's religions - and in my family, we are - yet we frequently do not get the same treatment in return. But I don't usually go around talking about this; strangely, there aren't any highly publicized "news" articles about the poor treatment atheists get at the hands of the religious. All I seem to hear about is the "war on Christmas", which is, frankly, an utter joke.

Yup, agreed. The "war on Christmas" literally doesn't exist. It's perpetuated by those who think church vs. state is bad, and those who are afraid that christianity isn't the official religion of the US. Something funny about the entire thing is that as a child I got ridiculed for not believing in God, and then when as an older adolescent/adult I now find myself as more of a Deist (e.g. I believe in God but not so much one specific religion), I get ridiculed for that! People will always find something to complain about it, it seems. Church and state separation protects ALL RELIGIONS!


On another note, something interesting about the separation btw church and state is that it goes far beyond what happens in schools. I think some people don't realize that what dismantling it largely means is that companies who get federal funds (and people who work for said companies) can start openly discriminating against people who are LGBTQ, Transgender, believe in another religion, etc, under "religious freedom". That completely blows my mind, and it essentially makes it ok to be discriminatory. Yuck!

 

[katharath]

Yup, agreed. The "war on Christmas" literally doesn't exist. It's perpetuated by those who think church vs. state is bad, and those who are afraid that christianity isn't the official religion of the US. Something funny about the entire thing is that as a child I got ridiculed for not believing in God, and then when as an older adolescent/adult I now find myself as more of a Deist (e.g. I believe in God but not so much one specific religion), I get ridiculed for that! People will always find something to complain about it, it seems. Church and state separation protects ALL RELIGIONS!


On another note, something interesting about the separation btw church and state is that it goes far beyond what happens in schools. I think some people don't realize that what dismantling it largely means is that companies who get federal funds (and people who work for said companies) can start openly discriminating against people who are LGBTQ, Transgender, believe in another religion, etc, under "religious freedom". That completely blows my mind, and it essentially makes it ok to be discriminatory. Yuck!

Yes. It's about much more than just school - we move into dangerous ground when we begin to erode what should be a clear separation.

 

[bunnycat]

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/02/02/president-trump-wants-change-rules-churches/21705917/


Now I am not sure about all of this and will have to see where it goes.

But I do agree that a teacher should not be fired if she wishes her students a Merry Christmas.

And the one where an 8 year old, below, gets suspended for wishing her teacher a "Merry Christmas."

http://cbsnews.com.co/8-year-old-suspended-for-saying-merry-christmas-to-teacher/

When will this madness stop?

Right now, I am more concerned with the here and now and that 8 year old who loved school, and was traumatized because she innocently wished someone a Merry Christmas.

When I was a little 8 year old girl and was allowed to say Merry Christmas in public school, I never once thought about the Jewish kids in my class. Years later my Jewish friend told me how painful it was and how she felt pressure from her parents to be Jewish and horrible pressure and sadness at school because there was no mention of Jewish traditions, she felt outcast and alone (she said a lot more than this actually).. It reads like the principal was on a power trip; seriously who suspends little 8 year olds.. the child should be able to say, happy kwanzaa! Merry Christmas! Happy Christmas! Happy Festivus! whatever she feels like wishing someone at a holiday season. The principal was wrong. On a huge power trip btw.. Donald will fire him! (j/k)

There were atheists 50+ years ago, they lived in America, people can get along as long as no one forces their religious views and atheist views on another. My whole family is atheist, we put up our tree, we have lights, I love to watch Christmas movies.. I have a nativity from Germany that my closest friend brought back to me after she lived there for a year, it's a beautiful wooden set, I love it.. I love it for the craftsmanship and beauty, my across the street neighbors are Hindu and they have their festival of lights, I bring them over some brownies for their kids... We all get along just fine, we are a nice little community. There's santa christmas and there is the birth of what the christians believe to be the savior. To each their own.

Brings back a memory for me. You know I am Jewish, my husband is Italian - Catholic. We both maintain our separate religions as no one converted. Our children were exposed to both. We had a Christmas tree and Hanukkah menorah. We celebrated Passover and Easter.

One year when one of my girls was young, the teacher asked who celebrates Christmas. My daughter raised her hand. Then she asked who celebrated Hanukkah. Again my daughter raised her hand. Teacher told her she must be confused.

Well, mama bear marched right up there and set her straight. The next years, we had kids who raised their hand 3 times when asked about Christmas, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa. Things can be worked out without calling in the ACLU or denying that any of it exists.

Absolutely Ruby, we don't need to call the cops, ACLU etc all the time, we need to speak to each other

I hate to say this but that website with the little girl suspended, it's a fake site.. I like to pride myself on always checking but I didn't till after I posted..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Horner

soo just goes to show me I must be more vigilant..

http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/suspended.asp

I saw Tekate's post and had to look and look again. The dates were all wrong on the Snopes article. So I dug around some more.

Tekate's Snopes article is dated 2013. The story is the same, the dates are different, and in the Snopes article the "victim" is a little boy, rather than a little girl.

Then, I clicked on ruby's link (the cbs.com.co one) and thought it looked "odd" and not particularly professional (to me). It is a site masquerading as CBS news. It is not the ACTUAL CBS news site. It appears the faux site recycled the story and it wasn't until many dozens of hate replies later that someone pointed out the problem. I feel so sorry for the school this was directed at, at the constant barrage of hate they must have endured, and for all the people who were duped.

Anyway- the actual CBS news site owns this link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/

 

[ruby59]

I read where that school does not exist.

There are various versions with 2 names of schools that are made up.

Also, one where it is a boy who was suspended. Another, it is a girl.

Different first names, same last name.

Various grade levels as well.

The name of the teacher is used in many other fake articles saying he was suspended by wishing it to a student.

A mine field out there.

 

[bunnycat]

I read where that school does not exist.

There are various versions with 2 names of schools that are made up.

Also, one where it is a boy who was suspended. Another, it is a girl.

Different first names, same last name.

Various grade levels as well.

The name of the teacher is used in many other fake articles saying he was suspended by wishing it to a student.

A mine field out there.

exactly so.... I did google search the school name and address that someone posted in the comments and I did get a result. So, this school (and there are LOTS of schools names Westview in the US) probably got a lot of hate mail, and phone calls....the person listed in the article wrote for a newspaper that was satire (like the Onion....)

 

[sonnyjane]

I enjoy the irony in ruby posting a thread the other day criticizing BuzzFeed for falling for a fake news story... and then ruby falls for a fake news story.

 

[ruby59]

I enjoy the irony in ruby posting a thread the other day criticizing BuzzFeed for falling for a fake news story... and then ruby falls for a fake news story.

And admitted it here when I realized it.

As I posted before, I am learning too that you cannot believe everything you read.

 

[sonnyjane]

I enjoy the irony in ruby posting a thread the other day criticizing BuzzFeed for falling for a fake news story... and then ruby falls for a fake news story.

And admitted it here when I realized it.

As I posted before, I am learning too that you cannot believe everything you read.

Then I would highly suggest you edit your original post to make it clear that the story is fake.

 

[ruby59]

I enjoy the irony in ruby posting a thread the other day criticizing BuzzFeed for falling for a fake news story... and then ruby falls for a fake news story.

And admitted it here when I realized it.

As I posted before, I am learning too that you cannot believe everything you read.

Then I would highly suggest you edit your original post to make it clear that the story is fake.

I am well out of the time period where I can make any changes to the existing thread title.

I can only admit that I was wrong it believing it, which I did.

 

[Tekate]

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/02/02/president-trump-wants-change-rules-churches/21705917/


Now I am not sure about all of this and will have to see where it goes.

But I do agree that a teacher should not be fired if she wishes her students a Merry Christmas.

And the one where an 8 year old, below, gets suspended for wishing her teacher a "Merry Christmas."

http://cbsnews.com.co/8-year-old-suspended-for-saying-merry-christmas-to-teacher/

When will this madness stop?

Right now, I am more concerned with the here and now and that 8 year old who loved school, and was traumatized because she innocently wished someone a Merry Christmas.

When I was a little 8 year old girl and was allowed to say Merry Christmas in public school, I never once thought about the Jewish kids in my class. Years later my Jewish friend told me how painful it was and how she felt pressure from her parents to be Jewish and horrible pressure and sadness at school because there was no mention of Jewish traditions, she felt outcast and alone (she said a lot more than this actually).. It reads like the principal was on a power trip; seriously who suspends little 8 year olds.. the child should be able to say, happy kwanzaa! Merry Christmas! Happy Christmas! Happy Festivus! whatever she feels like wishing someone at a holiday season. The principal was wrong. On a huge power trip btw.. Donald will fire him! (j/k)

There were atheists 50+ years ago, they lived in America, people can get along as long as no one forces their religious views and atheist views on another. My whole family is atheist, we put up our tree, we have lights, I love to watch Christmas movies.. I have a nativity from Germany that my closest friend brought back to me after she lived there for a year, it's a beautiful wooden set, I love it.. I love it for the craftsmanship and beauty, my across the street neighbors are Hindu and they have their festival of lights, I bring them over some brownies for their kids... We all get along just fine, we are a nice little community. There's santa christmas and there is the birth of what the christians believe to be the savior. To each their own.

Brings back a memory for me. You know I am Jewish, my husband is Italian - Catholic. We both maintain our separate religions as no one converted. Our children were exposed to both. We had a Christmas tree and Hanukkah menorah. We celebrated Passover and Easter.

One year when one of my girls was young, the teacher asked who celebrates Christmas. My daughter raised her hand. Then she asked who celebrated Hanukkah. Again my daughter raised her hand. Teacher told her she must be confused.

Well, mama bear marched right up there and set her straight. The next years, we had kids who raised their hand 3 times when asked about Christmas, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa. Things can be worked out without calling in the ACLU or denying that any of it exists.

Absolutely Ruby, we don't need to call the cops, ACLU etc all the time, we need to speak to each other

I hate to say this but that website with the little girl suspended, it's a fake site.. I like to pride myself on always checking but I didn't till after I posted..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Horner

soo just goes to show me I must be more vigilant..

http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/suspended.asp

I saw Tekate's post and had to look and look again. The dates were all wrong on the Snopes article. So I dug around some more.

Tekate's Snopes article is dated 2013. The story is the same, the dates are different, and in the Snopes article the "victim" is a little boy, rather than a little girl.

Then, I clicked on ruby's link (the cbs.com.co one) and thought it looked "odd" and not particularly professional (to me). It is a site masquerading as CBS news. It is not the ACTUAL CBS news site. It appears the faux site recycled the story and it wasn't until many dozens of hate replies later that someone pointed out the problem. I feel so sorry for the school this was directed at, at the constant barrage of hate they must have endured, and for all the people who were duped.

Anyway- the actual CBS news site owns this link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/

Right I noticed the link from Snopes was from 13, but the story was the same (abeit a boy) but the story came from the same organization/guy who started the first one.. cbs.com.co is owned by a fake news guy.

 

[bunnycat]

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/02/02/president-trump-wants-change-rules-churches/21705917/


Now I am not sure about all of this and will have to see where it goes.

But I do agree that a teacher should not be fired if she wishes her students a Merry Christmas.

And the one where an 8 year old, below, gets suspended for wishing her teacher a "Merry Christmas."

http://cbsnews.com.co/8-year-old-suspended-for-saying-merry-christmas-to-teacher/

When will this madness stop?

Right now, I am more concerned with the here and now and that 8 year old who loved school, and was traumatized because she innocently wished someone a Merry Christmas.

When I was a little 8 year old girl and was allowed to say Merry Christmas in public school, I never once thought about the Jewish kids in my class. Years later my Jewish friend told me how painful it was and how she felt pressure from her parents to be Jewish and horrible pressure and sadness at school because there was no mention of Jewish traditions, she felt outcast and alone (she said a lot more than this actually).. It reads like the principal was on a power trip; seriously who suspends little 8 year olds.. the child should be able to say, happy kwanzaa! Merry Christmas! Happy Christmas! Happy Festivus! whatever she feels like wishing someone at a holiday season. The principal was wrong. On a huge power trip btw.. Donald will fire him! (j/k)

There were atheists 50+ years ago, they lived in America, people can get along as long as no one forces their religious views and atheist views on another. My whole family is atheist, we put up our tree, we have lights, I love to watch Christmas movies.. I have a nativity from Germany that my closest friend brought back to me after she lived there for a year, it's a beautiful wooden set, I love it.. I love it for the craftsmanship and beauty, my across the street neighbors are Hindu and they have their festival of lights, I bring them over some brownies for their kids... We all get along just fine, we are a nice little community. There's santa christmas and there is the birth of what the christians believe to be the savior. To each their own.

Brings back a memory for me. You know I am Jewish, my husband is Italian - Catholic. We both maintain our separate religions as no one converted. Our children were exposed to both. We had a Christmas tree and Hanukkah menorah. We celebrated Passover and Easter.

One year when one of my girls was young, the teacher asked who celebrates Christmas. My daughter raised her hand. Then she asked who celebrated Hanukkah. Again my daughter raised her hand. Teacher told her she must be confused.

Well, mama bear marched right up there and set her straight. The next years, we had kids who raised their hand 3 times when asked about Christmas, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa. Things can be worked out without calling in the ACLU or denying that any of it exists.

Absolutely Ruby, we don't need to call the cops, ACLU etc all the time, we need to speak to each other

I hate to say this but that website with the little girl suspended, it's a fake site.. I like to pride myself on always checking but I didn't till after I posted..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Horner

soo just goes to show me I must be more vigilant..

http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/suspended.asp

I saw Tekate's post and had to look and look again. The dates were all wrong on the Snopes article. So I dug around some more.

Tekate's Snopes article is dated 2013. The story is the same, the dates are different, and in the Snopes article the "victim" is a little boy, rather than a little girl.

Then, I clicked on ruby's link (the cbs.com.co one) and thought it looked "odd" and not particularly professional (to me). It is a site masquerading as CBS news. It is not the ACTUAL CBS news site. It appears the faux site recycled the story and it wasn't until many dozens of hate replies later that someone pointed out the problem. I feel so sorry for the school this was directed at, at the constant barrage of hate they must have endured, and for all the people who were duped.

Anyway- the actual CBS news site owns this link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/

Right I noticed the link from Snopes was from 13, but the story was the same (abeit a boy) but the story came from the same organization/guy who started the first one.. cbs.com.co is owned by a fake news guy.

I'm surprised the .co site of Sns under legal action for attempting to impersonate a well known news syndicate....

 

[ericad]

The Satanic Temple of Seattle is doing some great work here, shining the light on violations of church/state separation and the hypocrisy of it all.

https://thesatanictempleseattle.com/

(and no, they don't literally worship Satan lol)

 

[lovedogs]

The Satanic Temple of Seattle is doing some great work here, shining the light on violations of church/state separation and the hypocrisy of it all.

https://thesatanictempleseattle.com/

(and no, they don't literally worship Satan lol)

Yes!!! I love the satanic temple. They rock.