selecting the perfect diamond

[ed.touche]

I''m probably a newbie asking that same old question...Hey - to me it''s a once in a life purchase (i hope!)


Below I have listed a diamond I am thinking about purchasing. However, I just thought I would ask the experts a few question before I go spend my hard-earned cash.


Is an Ideal cut the best you can get? Do all Ideal Cuts have Hearts and Arrows associated with them? On one web site I checked out they quoted that a Diamond with an AGS cert is more desirable than one with a GIA cert. Is this True.


Lastly, this web site also quoted that some guy (William Boyajian, President of the GIA in 199 said "Although it is not GIA''s role to discredit the concept of an ''Ideal" cut, on the basis of our research to date we cannot recommend its use in modern times."


So, what is the recommeded use in modern times?


I was thinking about purchasing a Leo but, so it seems the hype is just that hype - they fair no better than those which it has apparently replaced. True or not?


Thanks for your advice. Wish me luck popping the question (what will I do if she say''s no? ;c(


Anyway, on the the specifics...


Shape: Round
Weight: 0.40 CARATS
Cut Grade: Ideal (H&A)
Color Grade: D
Clarity Grade: IF


Laboratory: GIA
Measurements: 4.79-4.81x2.90mm
Depth: 60.4%
Table: 56%
Girdle: Thin
Culet: NONE
Polish: EXCELLENT
Symmetry: EXCELLENT
Fluorescence: NONE

 

[Giangi]

May I ask you why you want a 0.40 D/IF instead of a 0.5-0.6 in the GHI SI range?

 

[tomatoe]

!

as usual, get the company to either give u the sarin or do one on the diamond. with just the info from the gia cert, the users on here cant really help u much with ur purchase. read this and this tutorials and i will answer ur questions in bold to the best of my amateur ability.

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On 1/8/2004 7:24:02 AM ed.touche wrote:


Is an Ideal cut the best you can get?

if it is an ideal cut purchased from one of the reputable PS internet vendors, then yes. if it is just called an ideal cut on the gia cert, then no.

Do all Ideal Cuts have Hearts and Arrows associated with them?

no, and alot of maul store (branded or unbranded) H&A's, may not display the perfect h&a to qualify a stone as an actual H&A. Again, if it is a H&A purchased from one of the reputable PS internet vendors, then it will be a proper h&a. some certs note that H&A is inscribed on it but that does not mean that the stone is really a H&A, it just has that inscription.

On one web site I checked out they quoted that a Diamond with an AGS cert is more desirable than one with a GIA cert. Is this True.

no, an AGS has slightly more information for the consumer if making a purchase without sarins and all the other gizmos that most of the PS vendors have. It's most prolly just cos they sell mostly AGS stones thats why they quote that sentence.


Lastly, this web site also quoted that some guy (William Boyajian, President of the GIA in 199 said 'Although it is not GIA's role to discredit the concept of an 'Ideal' cut, on the basis of our research to date we cannot recommend its use in modern times.'

So, what is the recommeded use in modern times?


machines and reports like a sarin, Lightscope, BrillianceScope, Isee2 on top of the usual GIA/ AGS/ EGL (NY).

I was thinking about purchasing a Leo but, so it seems the hype is just that hype - they fair no better than those which it has apparently replaced. True or not?


this has more to do with personal preference than anything else, some people have seen these extra-faceted diamonds and feel they look 'fake' and unlike a diamond. there is also no basis that extra facets will make a diamond be more sparkly or brilliant.

----------------

giangi, if he's not so educated on diamonds, it's most prolly a culture thing

if he is educated on diamonds, then its prolly a personal preference

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 1/8/2004 7:24:02 AM ed.touche wrote:



Is an Ideal cut the best you can get? Do all Ideal Cuts have Hearts and Arrows associated with them? On one web site I checked out they quoted that a Diamond with an AGS cert is more desirable than one with a GIA cert. Is this True.

Lastly, this web site also quoted that some guy (William Boyajian, President of the GIA in 199 said 'Although it is not GIA's role to discredit the concept of an 'Ideal' cut, on the basis of our research to date we cannot recommend its use in modern times.'
----------------

Right on target

Diamonds are meant to be perfect, I guess...

What GIA's president might have said, is that the use of the word "ideal" to qualify the quality (~ "excellence in a range of measurable properties") of diamonds is not regulated and oftem abused. There are a lot of definitions and alot of brands of "ideal cut diamonds" and each has it's own version on what "ideal" means and how or, unfortunately, wether they should bring any evidence that the piece is good at anything to stand to the claim. As far as I know, GIA is developing it's own cut quality stnadards too nowadays.

These being said: if you believe that H&A diamonds are "Ideal" then why not? If you believe that the H&A pattern is boring and only top optical properties are enough to define what an "ideal diamond" is, than you are again right since there is no one to prove you wrong. However, finding a diamond with top optics, acceptable shape (i.e. anything like the usual mental picture of a RBC profile) and no H&A is somewhat hard.

It seems to me that, on Pricescope, a RBC is "ideal" if it has excellent symetry, top optics, excellent polish and size approaching what the ACA standard holds dearest. Now, such a piece is even more likely to have H&A (not sure it can avoid them altogether).

 

[chris-uk04]

I would say lower you standards to G-H and to VS quality. You can get a bigger stone and you won't be able to tell the difference.... such as:

0.60 ct G VS2

I had look at the LEO diamond as well. It is just hype. You see it compared to other mall diamonds and you think “wow” this is a wonderful stone. It’s just that the stones it’s being compared to are poorly cut and don’t sparkle much. So by comparison the Leo looks great, but I’m sure if you compared it to an ideally cut stone, you wouldn’t see a difference, except in price. 1 ct LEO was selling for £6000 in the UK, which is about $10000. You are only assured of SI2 quality and I color. For $10,000 you can do a lot better elsewhere.

 

[ed.touche]

Firstly, thank you to everyone of you who have replied. I really appreciate your help. I know it is time consuming to post these replies.




Welcome (to me at least) to a new world of acronyms. From what I can make out the whole business of selecting a beautiful diamond is somewhat subjective.




In answer to Giangi question - the reason why I want a smaller flawless and perfectly coloured (yes, I'm British) diamond is probably much the same reason as to why I ride a Trek 5900 opposed to a 5500 road bike. To the untrained eye the bikes are very similar. The difference is all in my mind, and to me that is what matters. I know I have a carbon Fiber 110 frame opposed to a 120 version. I don't care too much what other people think. Knowing my lady is wearing what she deserves (something perfect) matters greatly to me. Who cares if someone notes the size? big is not always beautiful (IMO).




now off to try and find the PS approved online retailers listing...




Cheers,


Ed.


p.s. bottom line - if you are searching for the perfect diamond would it be H&A or not? I have just noticed that all the ideal diamonds on the web site I found this stone on are H&A. Is it possible to get an Ideal Diamond without H&A, but with excellent symmetry, none florecences, etc?

 

[ed.touche]

Thanks for your reply Diamond Dazed and I fully take to heart your advice...again, (here it comes) however....!




The feeling while climbing a 10% gradient hill wouldn't differ greatly on the trek bike that is £1000 cheaper. What is different though is how it makes me feel - to some degree I almost (note said ALMOST) feel as cool as Lance Armstrong. To me that is what matters.




And equally so, I want my girl to feel almost like a princess (she will never be such as firstly she is American and secondly not born into royality!). My 'Misses' (or almost misses!) is a small girl with relatively small fingers - how silly does a small fingured girlie look with some vastly oversized rock on her finger? She likes the English way of life and doesn't (anylonger) feel the need to supersize everything

. Here in the UK it is seldom you see a lady wear an engagement ring over 1/2 carat in size. Call it a way of life - you see a few SUV's over here but not quiet to the same extent as you do in the states. anyway enough of my stupid analagies.




Plus, she told me size isn't important (great relief for me), and in fact she prefers them on the smaller size. I've pun'ed this out to the max....




Looks like i've almost decided. Mondera appear to be reputable? Anyone have experience with their 30 day return policy?




Cheers,


Ed.

 

[kimong]

Here's my 2c on a topic that doesn't answer any of your questions, but hey its a female opinion...

Don't go for a D/IF range. I used to have the same opinion, to always pay extra for the best, but after some research (and checking PS) I'm looking now to a F/G, VS1/2 range. Like your bike comparision, you pay extra for the costly bike because you expect better quality in materials and build, which makes perfect sense. But for buying a diamond, the quality of materials isn't gonna be any better in an IF/D, its still a rock made of carbon and the quality of build is determined by the cut and as you're getting an ideal/H&A you'll get quality build in any colour/clarity range!

So in terms of buying diamonds, what you see is really a determining factor! Which basically is lotsa sparkle/light in a white and clean diamond. So in the charts, D-F are colourless white... you can only see the very slight diff when placed on a white card and in the right light, which won't happen cause it will be on her finger!

And every girl I know has said size is most important, they want the biggest rock they can get without totally losing whiteness and clarity. It only seems in the minds of some guys that they have to get the perfect diamond for her (which is sweet), but lets not forget, it's for her and she will be the one wearing it! So unless you keep reminding her it's a perfect IF/D she'll keep looking at other diamonds and keep thinking... hmmm, what's so different about my smaller (H&A) diamond compared to the other bigger (H&A) ones! And not to be rude, but 0.4 carats is small! It's the size of what girls can buy for themselves. And believe me, her face will sparkle more when you show her a bigger diamond!

Here's a thought, how about asking her what she wants? It doesn't have to totally ruin your proposal surprise, she'll "suspect" something is happening anyway. Just casually mention would she prefer a smaller perfect diamond or a bigger less perfect one, but to the eye looks the same and both cost the same? I have no doubt of her response.

Though, after all my ranting, she may be one of the minority... guess only you can tell. End of ranting!

 

[ed.touche]

oh well. it appears my last post went unheard!




Miss Ed (soon to be Mrs Ed) doesn't want anything bigger than 0.5 Carats. She thinks they all look too big on her tiny little fingers. It may be small to you, however, as I mentioned, thinks here in the UK really don't amass to the same size as they do in the U.S.




Why can't we just start subsizing things?!

 

[rocks]

hi ed,
i'll start by saying that i have the trek...and all my additional components are titanium upgrades (a road bike, not a mountain bike, it is so light that i can pick it up with two fingers...important when you weigh 105 lbs, and are riding with men!), so i understand where you are coming from. my diamonds are all d,e,f and vs and ideal.

i understand your logic, and the sentiment behind a dif. one thing that you might consider is moving down a clarity grade or two (vvs), simply because an if isn't really internally flawless...it's a matter of the magnification used to examine the stone. that said, it is a fair compromise. if you are color sensitive, you will see a hugh difference between d/e colors and g/h/i, so in my opinion, very hight color is money well spent. people in this forum disagree, but for me, h and i color stones are most definitely yellow.

good luck!

 

[kimong]

Ooopps...

sorry about that, never read your previous post. I think the time it took me to type my previous ranting (also went to get a hot cuppa) you had posted it.

It's good to hear your gf has had her say, which to me is the important thing.

PS... I'm from UK too and also have tiny short fingers (roll out the kids gloves!!!), so size was an issue for me too, but what when I actually placed a 1 ct diamond on my finger it didn't look OTP. Before then, I was looking for something around 0.5/0.6, but that was when I knew nothing of diamonds and had never tried out any rings. Just a thought.

Good luck to your proposal!

 

[pqcollectibles]

----------------
On 1/8/2004 10:22:10 AM ed.touche wrote:


oh well. it appears my last post went unheard!


Miss Ed (soon to be Mrs Ed) doesn't want anything bigger than 0.5 Carats. She thinks they all look too big on her tiny little fingers. It may be small to you, however, as I mentioned, thinks here in the UK really don't amass to the same size as they do in the U.S.


Why can't we just start subsizing things?!
----------------

There you go, Ed. You answered THE question with that statement. D/IF is for you and the size is for her.

Regulars on the Forum are used to seeing new folk that think color and clarity is what it's all about. D/IF is perfect so the diamond must be great! And it's not. BTW, you do know that IF does not mean perfect don't you? It means that routine examination did not reveal any significant inclusions worthy of noting. Every diamond has growth patterns, striations, and possibly inclusions that are visible at high enough magnification.

To answer your H&A Q,.... H&A is a specific, optimal internal symmetry that produces the patterns. The hearts are viewed with the cutlet up, thru a special viewer. Once the diamond is mounted, you won't be able to see them. The arrows are visible thru the table. The H&A viewer gives you a very defined view of the arrows, but they will be visible to the naked eye at times. Certain lighting, the right angle. You'll see them from time to time and it is kinda neat.

Not all H&A's are spectacular performers. Some can be duds. The numbers, and specs, and testing are great screening tools, but the ultimate test is your eye. What appeals to you. What calls to you. Work with a Vendor that has solid knowledge of H&A's and screens their diamonds prior to sale. Check out the return/refund/upgrade policies as well.

 

[aljdewey]

I applaud the fact that everyone is trying to help by pointing out that D, IF isn't necessarily the best value, but the poster has acknowledged that he "gets" it and even with that knowledge, he still wants to purchase a smaller D, IF diamond. I think we should respect his choice.

Ed, there aren't a huge stash of D, IF diamonds, but I found a few on Whiteflash. They are listed as "ideal" cut, but most don't have the crown/pavilion angles, so if that matters to you (this will help determine how well they are cut), then perhaps WF can get that data for you.

.50 - http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-391362.htm


.52 - http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-547414.htm


.53 - http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-525584.htm


.53 - http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-579211.htm


.53 - http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-450937.htm




They all run between $3342 and $3687.




Good luck.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 1/8/2004 10:22:10 AM ed.touche wrote:


oh well. it appears my last post went unheard!


Miss Ed (soon to be Mrs Ed) doesn't want anything bigger than 0.5 Carats. She thinks they all look too big on her tiny little fingers. It may be small to you, however, as I mentioned, thinks here in the UK really don't amass to the same size as they do in the U.S.


Why can't we just start subsizing things?!
----------------

I am Romanian and have lived for substantial periods of time in both US and UK: so I surely understand what you mean. Also, there was no way I could explain to my US collegues that their UK peers would willingly wear in their e-rings stones that would have made stud earrings in the US. And those were not people on a tight budget. Such "intercultural" discussions tended to last far too long for my taste. My own engrained opinion that day jewelry should NOT contain diamonds ('cause it should not sparkle like evening wares should) was regarded with disbelief in both places. Oh well...

At least two Pricescope members (and sellers) would probably welcome your inquiry about a top non H&A D-IF with an overwhelming amount of detail: Jonathan from GOG ('Rhino') and Gary from Preciousmetals ('CutNut').

I must say that there was at least one previous inquiry about a D-IF (the "perfect diamond") during my stage on Pricescope. That person was looking for a 1.6-1.8 cts with "perfect" cut and NO flaws (some, such as graining and polish details do not affect the clarity grade so can be encountered in IFs). That was one of the longest, most acid threads around here / although surely informative. At least your post is about a small stone, otherwise... just look and see for yourself what the danger is

 

[kimong]

Man, I gotter start typing faster, everyone ends up posting something before I submit mine!

Anyway, i somewhat agree with Rocks, I think a H/I or less are quite tainted yellow and anything below the VS range still has flaws you can see (though you may be lucky and get one that has flaws that are well hidden when mounted... but that's another story).

But in the end what we're trying to say, you should consider something less than an IF/D.

Definitely will be my last rant (so mr ed hopes!)

 

[ed.touche]

oh, pants!




This ring business is all too much hard work. Maybe I will just buy here a Trek 5900 (about the same price as this diamond and ring) and tell her to wear that on her finger. It will certainly be a lot bigger than any of your 1 Carat pieces and *I* think a lot prettier too!

don't ask what the wedding ring will be like!

 

[kimong]

oh, pants!
 
This ring business is all too much hard work.  Maybe I will just buy here a Trek 5900 (about the same price as this diamond and ring) and tell her to wear that on her finger.  It will certainly be a lot bigger than any of your 1 Carat pieces and *I* think a lot prettier too!
 
don't ask what the wedding ring will be like!
----------------

Heee...heeee! Definitely hard work! BTW, you really sound SO english! Cheers geezer, or gov! (I will eventually learn to stop being rude)

 

[ed.touche]

kim -




I thought you promised to be quiet. now you are driving me hopping mad!!

Is the reason why your post take so long to complete due to your diamond getting in the way of the screen while typing. Maybe you should take it off when posting. Also, the weight probably doesn't help.

 

[kimong]

Heeeee... heee!

Sorry about that, I deserved whatever flak you dish out to me. I think its the aussie in me... too used to pommie bashing! (truth comes out!... and NO you won't be keeping the rugby world cup in 4 years time)

I only wish I had that problem with a rock on my finger. Still looking for mine! The word fussy comes to mind and after some searching together, future hubby has told me the budget and said, Honey, go forth and find your dream ring, I will be a waiting! Heee...heee, gotta love the man for putting up with my fussiness!

Seriously, good luck with your proposal and we are all interested in how it went and what ya got.

PS... you'd be happy to know I'm going offline now.... have a good evening!

 

[valeria101]

Here's some findings... Have you searched for stones yet?

ONE

TWO
For both (or any other diamonds with only these specs available) you may want to ask for further measures of cut quality, but one has to start somewhere

The first search turned out 28 more stones 90.4-0.45 cts, D-IF, H&A. Only the top cut collection at Dirtcheap seems to contain pieces with your specs, but some Qs directly addressed to sellers would probably turn out more.

 

[tomatoe]

----------------
On 1/8/2004 10:46:45 AM valeria101 wrote:

----------------
I must say that there was at least one previous inquiry about a D-IF (the 'perfect diamond') during my stage on Pricescope. That person was looking for a 1.6-1.8 cts with 'perfect' cut and NO flaws (some, such as graining and polish details do not affect the clarity grade so can be encountered in IFs). That was one of the longest, most acid threads around here / although surely informative. At least your post is about a small stone, otherwise... just look and see for yourself what the danger is

----------------

ana, but at least that thread has made the regulars on PS less harsh on ed, or maybe they aint on yet

gd luck with ur future purchase ed.... and i hope u r aware of the 'shrinkage' factor!!!

 

[ChooChoo]

Ed, I know you're going to be mad at me, but I feel that someone needs to speak up for that poor girlfriend of yours. If I knew that my fiance spent $5000 on a ring that looks like it's worth $2000 max, I would be MAD! There's gotta be a line between romantic and wasteful, and I think you're well over it. If you want a small diamond, but have money burning a hole in your pocket, buy her earrings with the difference instead.

If you get the D/IF, you'll know it's "perfect" and she'll know it's "perfect" (but only because you'll tell her - if she's like 99% of the world, she would never know the difference between a D/IF and a E or even F/VS2). Everyone else will think you were cheap (or "average", I guess, since everyone else wears rings that small). If I was your gf, it would definitely dampen my enjoyment of my "extraordinary ring" if it looked like just any other blah blah rock.

And remember, you're not just being extravagant with YOUR money - when she marries you, it will be her money as well. If I was her, I would rather have the difference to spend on the wedding - that'll buy you a lot of flowers and cake!

 

[tomatoe]

----------------
On 1/8/2004 8:52:24 AM ed.touche wrote:


p.s. bottom line - if you are searching for the perfect diamond would it be H&A or not? I have just noticed that all the ideal diamonds on the web site I found this stone on are H&A. Is it possible to get an Ideal Diamond without H&A, but with excellent symmetry, none florecences, etc?


----------------

it is possible to get a wonderful diamond without the perfect symmetry of H&A's (mara's stone) but y not just go the whole 'perfect' hog and get h&a on top of the d/if.

 

[ed.touche]

pheww....I'm glad i'm not marrying you lot.




As for the cake - there will be none at our wedding. You've all surely heard the one about what one food puts a woman off sex, causes her to pile on 50lbs, yelps at you for leaving dirty underpants on the floor, etc....yes, yes, it's wedding cake.




Heck to the D/IF diamond - she can wait till next Christmas and be content with a plastic ring out of a Christmas cracker. My blind grandad won't be able to tell the difference between that and a real ring.




I'm off to ride my bike. Good night!

 

[ChooChoo]

Yep, I feel sorry for your girlfriend. A small ring and no cake!

 

[pqcollectibles]

Hey Ed!

You might ask the seller of the diamond you posted for Sarin info to get the Crown and Pavillion angles. Then you can use the Cut Adviser to see how the diamond rates. Scores below 2 are among the top 5% of diamonds in terms of performance.

I searched Price Scope Vendors by cut quality and did not find a D/IF or D/FL less than 1 carat in size. I also checked Good Old Gold's additional H&A search engine with no luck. Diamond Brokers of Florida has a 3/4 carat listed. That's a possible for you.

Val made a good suggestion. Check out the various Vendor's websites, return/refund/upgrade policies. Search past threads by Vendor name to see other buyers' experiences. Call or email some Vendors with your specs. Working with a Vendor to source for you might be your best option.

It's great you are trying to get a diamond that has what both you and your gal want. You want a symbol of perfection for her, and she gets the size she is comfortable with. Sounds like you 2 are already working well together!

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 1/8/2004 11:53:14 AM ChooChoo wrote:

Ed, I know you're going to be mad at me, but I feel that someone needs to speak up for that poor girlfriend of yours. If I knew that my fiance spent $5000 on a ring that looks like it's worth $2000 max, I would be MAD! There's gotta be a line between romantic and wasteful, and I think you're well over it.

And remember, you're not just being extravagant with YOUR money - when she marries you, it will be her money as well. If I was her, I would rather have the difference to spend on the wedding - that'll buy you a lot of flowers and cake!
----------------

Choo......I think it is you who is definitely well over the line here.

It is not anyone's place on this board to tell people how they should spend their money or what's an appropriate way to spend it.

It's one thing to educate someone so they understand how to get the most for their money, but at the end of the day, it is up to HIM to determine what HE's comfortable spending.

It's NOT up to us to *persuade* others to get on board with what WE think is best. NO ONE should be castigated here for what they value.

You're seriously out of line.....and you should apologize to Ed.

 

[ChooChoo]

Al, while I appreciate your point, I don't think I need to apologize to Ed for just being honest with him. Everything I said is true: people will think he spent less than he did, his gf will only know that the diamond is "perfect" because he tells her, and he is not just spending his money, but their future savings as well.

Granted, he knows his girlfriend better than we do, but he isn't inside her head - and I just told him how another woman might feel in her situation. He said she wanted small, but he never said she wanted perfect and expensive.

I just thought he should consider everything before making such an important decision! I know I wasn't being "gentle" with him, but with all due respect, he may think this is the right decision now and just as easily regret it later - when his diamond will be worth much less and very hard to resell - so why not think long and hard first?

P.S. As for my comment about feeling sorry for his girlfriend, well that was maybe immature - but he started it.

NO CAKE?!!!

 

[Daniela]

Ed,

You always have to take other people's opinions with a grain of salt, because they are just that: other people's opinions. It is obvious that you know what you want, and that you understand that you're paying a premium. People around here are just trying to be helpful and offer up some advice from the other side of the fence. Sometimes people show up here wanting D IF and when they figure out what that means in real world diamond optics, then they change their minds. You, on the other hand, have not changed your mind, and that's totally fine. It's your money, your girl, and your decision.

I would encourage you to get a true hearts and arrows stone, though, rather than a regular ideal, because the arrows are really cool in certain lighting. Again, just my opinion!

Be sure to let us know which stone you choose, and then by all means post pictures!

Daniela

 

[aljdewey]

Choo....you didn't just tell him your opinion....you made a value judgement:

"There's gotta be a line between romantic and wasteful, and I think you're well over it."

Who are you (or any of us) to tell him what's appropriate and what's "over the line" in how he spends money.....which I would point out it HIS money. And further, until they are married, it is still HIS money.

Also, it needs to be said.......he didn't ASK for your opinion (or mine or anyone else's) about whether we agreed with his choice or whether we think it's "smart" to spend his money this way. In fact, he was quite clear that he understands why folks are pointing out the value in lesser color/quality stones, but he doesn't want to do so.

All he asked for was a little information on cut, H&A, etc.....and what he got was a ration of judgmental commentary on what he "should" spend his money on. He strikes me as someone secure enough not to care what other people "think" about his buying a small stone.

It's one thing to say "did you know that there's little visual difference between a D and an F?" It's another thing to say "It's wasteful of you to buy a D." or to have the audacity to suggest his girlfriend needs pity for his wasteful judgment.

And whether or not you apologize, you were out of line.....WAY out of line.

Ed, *I'm* sorry that your experience here was this. It shouldn't have been.